What Happens When You're Awake?

[Vrecknidj]

When I'm asleep, the "waking world," I presume, goes about its business. Others continue to experience one another and the world, etc. Barring something like the world as described by George Berkeley (but without God), I think that there are consistencies and continuities that pervade and describe the waking world.

When I'm awake, the "dreaming world," perhaps, goes about its business as well. It seems like the dreaming world isn't really that, it seems like it's my dreaming world. That is, that the world of my dreams and the world of your dreams are perhaps different worlds. One is within me, the other within you.

Perhaps my "dreaming world" and the "waking world" are radically different. Perhaps there is one "waking world" that we all share.... But perhaps not. Perhaps there is no thewaking world; just mine and yours, just like my dreaming world.

No matter, that is not the point I wish to explore here.

The main point I wish to explore is this.

What happens in my dream world when I'm not there? That is, when I'm awake, I'm in the waking world and not in the dreaming world. When I am dreaming, I'm in my dream world and not the waking world, but, when I do awaken, I find that the waking world is just as it was when I left it last. This is not true of the dream world. Very often, each time I enter the dream world, the details and different.

The waking world is characterized by things like F=ma and the Second Law of Thermodynamics, and Natural Selection, and pi = circumference / diameter. There may be laws of the dreaming world too, but I have not had the leisure or the prowess to find them.

My dreaming world seems to not follow the same rules of consistency and conformity and continuity that the waking world seems to exhibit. Perhaps, however, this is just because I haven't isolated and understood the laws that do apply in that realm.

I'm curious what goes on in the dream world when I'm awake. It seems that I cannot know because I cannot enter the dream world except when I'm not awake.

Still, I wonder.

Jung suggested that there's ALWAYS stuff going on in the dream world. The fact that we sometimes dream and enter that world is just a small bit of what goes on there.

And now, back to one of the other points. Perhaps my dream world and your dream world and anyone else's dream world do have similarities, or perhaps there are even laws that govern these worlds such that they all follow certain unalterable rules.

Curious.

Dave

 

[Da Blob]

Well, I think the one principle that eludes many is the fact that we are each god in our dream world. We can will things to happen and they do happen, often with unforeseen consequences. I have discovered that I am a piss poor god and I feel sorry for those entities that have to worship and obey me in my dream world.

I think a lot of people are merely passive observers in the dream world -it is something I have to guard against, myself. I do not think there is such a gulf between the waking world and the dream world. Objective reality can intrude into the dream world (for example, the sound of a dog barking in the 'waking' world being incorporated into an occurring dream) and vice versa. I think there are several mental disorders that involve getting one world confused with the other.

I see them as simultaneous POVs, but we are usually only conscious of one or another at any given time. I think it may have something to do with the generation of different types of brain waves (alpha or beta?)

 

[Agent Intellect]

The dream world is necessarily dependent on the waking world, because the dream world can only manifest within the confines of what we already know - unlike the perception of Gods capabilities, information or knowledge cannot be willed or created into existence by humans. Our brains can only manipulate, change, rearrange, stretch, mold, and revise already existing information that we have attained in the waking world from our experiences and educations (formal or informal).

The dream world is a construct of brain activity - when such brain activity is no longer running, the dream world ceases to exist, in the same way that one no longer holds ideals or feels feelings once they are dead. The memory of the dream world can remain as changes in the neural patterns and strengthening of certain synapses, but the dream itself only exists within the substrate of a human brain - there's no actual 'dream world' except as a set pattern within our neural network.

 

[Da Blob]

The dream world is necessarily dependent on the waking world, because the dream world can only manifest within the confines of what we already know - unlike the perception of Gods capabilities, information or knowledge cannot be willed or created into existence by humans. Our brains can only manipulate, change, rearrange, stretch, mold, and revise already existing information that we have attained in the waking world from our experiences and educations (formal or informal).

The dream world is a construct of brain activity - when such brain activity is no longer running, the dream world ceases to exist, in the same way that one no longer holds ideals or feels feelings once they are dead. The memory of the dream world can remain as changes in the neural patterns and strengthening of certain synapses, but the dream itself only exists within the substrate of a human brain - there's no actual 'dream world' except as a set pattern within our neural network.

This is true, only from an objective point of view. The environment of dreams is not dependent on the waking world, primarily because Time and Space function by different 'physical' laws in the dream world. Gravity is a habit not a requirement. Time does not even exist in the dream world as we define time in the 'waking world'. By the same standard, to limit the boundaries of the dream world to the Space of a human brain and the Time that certain brain waves are observable may not be a valid observation about a phenomena that that is not bound by Time and Space(?)

It has always been a bit of a query of mine "What do the physics of the subjective universe look like, if time and space are not constants?"

 

[Vrecknidj]

The dream world is necessarily dependent on the waking world,

The skeptic and scientist in me believe you. Other parts of me don't.

because the dream world can only manifest within the confines of what we already know

But even the part of me that agrees with you on the previous point isn't so sure about this one. That part of me would say that the dream world depends upon the waking world because the dream world is the kind of thing that cannot exist without the other, but not vice versa. That the dream world is epiphenomenal.

- unlike the perception of Gods capabilities, information or knowledge cannot be willed or created into existence by humans.

Perhaps. But, I'm not convinced that the dream world is created by humans.

Our brains can only manipulate, change, rearrange, stretch, mold, and revise already existing information that we have attained in the waking world from our experiences and educations (formal or informal).

Again, perhaps. But, perhaps the brain is itself a much less significant part of this whole thing than we think. I get the neuroscience, but I also get that it's still a perspective. It's possible that the brain isn't the creative agent, that it's instead some sort of transceiver, or merely a physical analog of a multidimensional something else.

The dream world is a construct of brain activity - when such brain activity is no longer running, the dream world ceases to exist, in the same way that one no longer holds ideals or feels feelings once they are dead.

Maybe. Maybe not. I don't know that the dream world of my father no longer exists (he died in 1996). For all I know, his dream world was the more expansive of the two and that's where he returned after he died here. If so, I haven't figured out how to check, so I don't know. That said, Occam's Razor would seem to suggest a simpler alternative, but Occam isn't always right.

The memory of the dream world can remain as changes in the neural patterns and strengthening of certain synapses, but the dream itself only exists within the substrate of a human brain - there's no actual 'dream world' except as a set pattern within our neural network.

Perhaps. Perhaps not. Triangles might think that spheres are only the dreams of circles, but that might be because the triangle can get out of a two-dimensional perspective. Maybe the waking world fits inside the dream world(s) in a way analogous to how consciousness fits within unconsciousness.

Dave

 

[Da Blob]

BTw- I have been a lucid dreamer for over 50 years and I learned to manipulate my dreams at an early age. There are different types and levels to the experiences of dreaming.

I have had hundreds if not thousands of pre-cognitive dreams, (usually just snap shot images of places I have not yet visited or people I have not yet met). This is primary reason that I think that in some way, that indeed, Dreams reflect a valid POV of reality. Again Time as we know it does not exist in the dream world - so there does not seem to be a barrier between Now and Tomorrow...

I agree with dave, I think that there are some unique metaphysical (perhaps extra-dimensional) qualities that are exhibited in the human brain..

 

[Cassandra]

The waking world is characterized by things like F=ma and the Second Law of Thermodynamics, and Natural Selection, and pi = circumference / diameter. There may be laws of the dreaming world too, but I have not had the leisure or the prowess to find them.

I tried to solve the dream-world-rules in one of my dreams (ya, I had a dream about dreaming--metadream). It was entertaining, but I haven't found anything definate. I think rule #1 is that nothing is definate. Things sometimes have fuzzy edges, shapes shift and form into other things, sometimes I can fly, other times I apparently have the normal force (that which opposes gravity) turned off and cannot stand on the ground (that one was real fun...the entire dream, spent falling through the ground, out the other side of the planet, and on and on)

Dreams are like a simulation of a simulation. Best I can put it.

 

[SEPKA]

I think all mathematics rule still hold true in the dream world. Maths is analytical after all, so it is true by logical necessity. Physical laws however can change at a whim in the dream world.

 

[Beat Mango]

This is the problem with philosophy and language - it doesn't take into account probability. In all likelihood, dreams are secondary and illusory representations of what happens when you're awake. My dreams echo the goings-on of reality far more often than vice versa.

 

[Da Blob]

This is the problem with philosophy and language - it doesn't take into account probability. In all likelihood, dreams are secondary and illusory representations of what happens when you're awake. My dreams echo the goings-on of reality far more often than vice versa.

LOL or waking consciousness is a secondary and illusionary representation of the dream world... The logic of this is that the 4th dimension is not a boundary in a dream state. Therefore dreams may be occurring in a 5 dimensional 'reality', whereas, in the 'waking' world we are limited to merely 4 dimensions and are the 'prisoners of time' while we are awake...

 

[Weliddryn]

This, I think, can easily relate to mind/body dichtomy and to that I would like to relate my rudimentary understanding of Quantum Mechanics.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in Quantum Mechanics does it not state that electrons can exist in more than one dimension/plane/other (unsure) at once? And the human brain contains many of these, thus if the electrons carry much of the 'mind' could it not be said that the mind and body are separate enough to claim the concept valid?

And if dreams are contained within the mind, there could be a 'dream world'?

If so, perhaps the dimensions/planes/other in which the electrons co-exist simultaneously with this one merge with others' thoughts/electrons/minds?

 

[echoplex]

Who is to say you stop dreaming when you're awake? Of course, I realize "day" dreams don't seem dreamy enough for the dream world, but subjective interpretation of reality can be almost dreamlike at times. I may be a bit insane, but it's sometimes hard to tell the difference. Life (awake) just seems like one big dream, it's just persistent enough, and lasts comparatively long enough, to be granted the title of "real".

There is clearly a bias toward wakefuleness in the scientific community.

I mean, we wake up and often think to ourselves "ah, it was just a dream, I'm not really being chased by a lion. Phew..." Why not say when you're asleep "ah, that was just a dream, I'm not really a socially-inept freak living in a world of confusion and madness. Phew..."

I realize I'm being silly, but there may be some merit to this. For many people, the question of "what's real?" is not as simple as it is for most. For some (perhaps many of us?) the "dream world" is much more interesting than the world where death is final (aka real life). I imagine, too, that the line between the too can become blurred more easily than many would think. This is especially the case for those who experience recurring dreams with rich detail and consistent storylines. After all, isn't that all reality in the waking world is?

So, what happens to the dreaming world when you're awake? Nothing, it just gets a shiny makeover, which ironically often makes it far less attractive than its slightly nerdy, cute, and underappreciated sister.

 

[warryer]

Wow Vreck, killer thread!

I have gone through this waking world/dreaming world dilemma for a long long time. It comes back to the surface every now and then.

Perhaps the dream world was a place created by the brain where it can be its purest self, free from the restrictions placed upon it via society. Perhaps the dreamworld is the next step in our evolution. Perhaps in the waking world we are experiencing one frequency of information while in the dreamworld we are experiencing another.

How about those people who are in comas? Are they dreaming or are they flat out brain dead: living mass of cells?

It makes me wonder, just what consciousness is. I am leaning towards consciousness being just another function of the universe, something that just exists. A function being you put one thing in and get another thing out. Kind of a cold way to see it.

The way we perceive the world and interpret information is done with our personal chemical computer. So I wonder, if consciousness is a byproduct of chemistry and if so does this mean that all chemical reactions have their own element of consciousness? Does the burning sun have its own form of consciousness? Do photo-synthetic plants have a different variation of consciousness?

The obvious example is drugs: acid, mushrooms, alcohol, sugar, caffeine, the list goes on... All of which interact chemically with our brains causing an imbalance. Under the influence of these things one's perception and interpretation is drastically altered. Does this mean you become a different person in the same body?

This reminds me of something interesting I read awhile back, one person postualated that seconds before your death your brain floods itself with all kinds of chemicals. This causing the perception of time to slow way down allowing the brain to continue to "hallucinate" several lifetimes at once in what would appear to be seconds. I would imagine that this could cascade into infinity.

I would be quick to dismiss this idea yet I remember the times when I am twiddling my thumb waiting for the clock to finally reach 5 o'clock so I can leave and go home. Or all the times that I get sucked into a good book, movie, video game or other and I become aware of reality again and am shocked at just how much time has passed. I know personally I have had some dreams that have felt as though they lasted for days and some where I feel as though I just laid down to sleep only 15 minutes ago.

Such a fascinating subject.

Oh well, I need to go continue some of my experimenting. I'm curious to read what others think of all this.

 

[Da Blob]

This, I think, can easily relate to mind/body dichtomy and to that I would like to relate my rudimentary understanding of Quantum Mechanics.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in Quantum Mechanics does it not state that electrons can exist in more than one dimension/plane/other (unsure) at once? And the human brain contains many of these, thus if the electrons carry much of the 'mind' could it not be said that the mind and body are separate enough to claim the concept valid?

And if dreams are contained within the mind, there could be a 'dream world'?

If so, perhaps the dimensions/planes/other in which the electrons co-exist simultaneously with this one merge with others' thoughts/electrons/minds?

Sounds about right to me, but it might be worthy of an internet search
One moment please... I found this one in a few minutes, it might be worth a better search
http://www.fredalanwolf.com/myarticles/dreaming universe paper.pdf

 

[Agent Intellect]

The dream world, I would say, is a world where free will truly exists. There is no deterministic coherency in the dream world, because nothing is required to happen sequentially.

That being said, I don't think the dream world exists anywhere other than within ourselves, and cannot exist in any state beyond what is within ourselves. Manifesting a dream world beyond our current threshold of knowledge and intelligence would be like trying to describe color to a person that was born blind, or think of what's outside of existence.

The events within ones dream world are similar to the events in a book (or even a daydream) in that they can be said to exist on some level - as an idea - but they can only be measured by their affect on the waking world. Someone may read a book and endorse it's ideals, or have a dream that makes them rethink an old ideal, and then those 'other worlds' had a real affect that can be measured, observed, or felt.

I would say that the dream world (or any world constructed in the mind) would be the subjective world; it's real in the sense of it's affect on the objective world. I think some people - primarily iNtuitives - are more apt to live within this subjective realm. The way I see it, though, is that the subjective universe requires input from the objective "waking world" - the idea that a person born blind cannot manifest an imaginary world where color exists, nor a person born deaf able to manifest a world of music (except maybe as vibrations felt in their body).

 

[Vrecknidj]

Who is to say you stop dreaming when you're awake? Of course, I realize "day" dreams don't seem dreamy enough for the dream world, but subjective interpretation of reality can be almost dreamlike at times. I may be a bit insane, but it's sometimes hard to tell the difference. Life (awake) just seems like one big dream, it's just persistent enough, and lasts comparatively long enough, to be granted the title of "real".

I never have a problem telling the difference when I'm awake (then again, I haven't tried any drugs), and I very rarely have any trouble telling the difference when I'm asleep. I suppose that this is the norm, given what I've heard and read. I assume this is a strong reason to believe that the waking world is more real or more important or more whatever. But, I agree that it's just an assumption.

There is clearly a bias toward wakefuleness in the scientific community.

Of course. It's easier to test hypotheses and to so so publicly. It would be nice to be able to set something else in that other place.

I mean, we wake up and often think to ourselves "ah, it was just a dream, I'm not really being chased by a lion. Phew..." Why not say when you're asleep "ah, that was just a dream, I'm not really a socially-inept freak living in a world of confusion and madness. Phew..."

That is a good point.

I realize I'm being silly, but there may be some merit to this. For many people, the question of "what's real?" is not as simple as it is for most. For some (perhaps many of us?) the "dream world" is much more interesting than the world where death is final (aka real life). I imagine, too, that the line between the too can become blurred more easily than many would think. This is especially the case for those who experience recurring dreams with rich detail and consistent storylines. After all, isn't that all reality in the waking world is?

I have had some dreams that repeat, some that continue, and many that seem to take place in a similar setting. I have not, however, had the luxury of being able to record and evaluate them as thoroughly as I'd like. Ah, what I'd give for someone to invent TiVo for dreams.

So, what happens to the dreaming world when you're awake? Nothing, it just gets a shiny makeover, which ironically often makes it far less attractive than its slightly nerdy, cute, and underappreciated sister.

This remains a curiosity to me. I'm not sure about this. I think the shiny makeover is the interpretation we make, and not a fact about that place. I'm really curious about that place.

Dave

 

[Vrecknidj]

Wow Vreck, killer thread!

Thanks. I tend to prefer to reply to threads over creating my own. But this thought merited sharing.

Perhaps the dream world was a place created by the brain where it can be its purest self, free from the restrictions placed upon it via society.

Maybe. I admit that it's possible that the dream world is entirely epiphenomenal and that the contents are unique to the individual brain.

How about those people who are in comas? Are they dreaming or are they flat out brain dead: living mass of cells?

I think it's a good idea to do brain scans of the unconscious whether they're in a coma or a PVS or some other state, so we have that external information. However, without being able to get inside their experience, there's so much we can't find out.

It makes me wonder, just what consciousness is. I am leaning towards consciousness being just another function of the universe, something that just exists. A function being you put one thing in and get another thing out. Kind of a cold way to see it.

I don't know that a functional analysis has to be cold. And I think that a functional analysis has the advantage of not being restricted to a physical system.

The way we perceive the world and interpret information is done with our personal chemical computer. So I wonder, if consciousness is a byproduct of chemistry and if so does this mean that all chemical reactions have their own element of consciousness?

Back to epiphenomena. I'm going to operate on a different axiom just to see where it gets me.

Does the burning sun have its own form of consciousness? Do photo-synthetic plants have a different variation of consciousness?

One collection of protons gives you Carbon, another gives you Oxygen. The one can do things the other can't. I don't think it's the composition that matters so much as the arrangements of the parts.

The obvious example is drugs: acid, mushrooms, alcohol, sugar, caffeine, the list goes on... All of which interact chemically with our brains causing an imbalance. Under the influence of these things one's perception and interpretation is drastically altered. Does this mean you become a different person in the same body?

I agree that all of this does affect (or could affect) how we understand the term "person" and that's a fascinating tangent.

Thanks for the thoughtful replies.

Dave

 

[Vrecknidj]

Sounds about right to me, but it might be worthy of an internet search
One moment please... I found this one in a few minutes, it might be worth a better search
http://www.fredalanwolf.com/myarticles/dreaming universe paper.pdf

This, I think, can easily relate to mind/body dichtomy and to that I would like to relate my rudimentary understanding of Quantum Mechanics.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in Quantum Mechanics does it not state that electrons can exist in more than one dimension/plane/other (unsure) at once? And the human brain contains many of these, thus if the electrons carry much of the 'mind' could it not be said that the mind and body are separate enough to claim the concept valid?

And if dreams are contained within the mind, there could be a 'dream world'?

If so, perhaps the dimensions/planes/other in which the electrons co-exist simultaneously with this one merge with others' thoughts/electrons/minds?

I don't know about all this. I find QM fascinating, and I admit that the brain and/or the mind might be influenced by QM-scale events.

I am willing to consider that the brain and mind aren't perfect synonyms and that we have wiggle room for analysis. And I'm willing to consider the possibility that some exploration of physics might provide insights.

I just don't want (myself) to jump to incorrect conclusions based on things that seem like they might be related (if they're not). I would love to see some research on this. I know John Eccles was interested in this sort of thing, but I'm not familiar enough with his work to speak intelligently on it.

Dave

 

[Beat Mango]

LOL or waking consciousness is a secondary and illusionary representation of the dream world... The logic of this is that the 4th dimension is not a boundary in a dream state. Therefore dreams may be occurring in a 5 dimensional 'reality', whereas, in the 'waking' world we are limited to merely 4 dimensions and are the 'prisoners of time' while we are awake...

I share a room with my brother. He sometimes talks in his sleep. The other night, I responded to his sleep talk, and we had a short conversation. Of course, he had no recollection of this the following morning. I'll await your explanation of this. LOL.

Ability to manipulate the dream world via the waking world, and the inability of the reverse to happen, is definitive proof that the waking world is greater.

 

[Da Blob]

I share a room with my brother. He sometimes talks in his sleep. The other night, I responded to his sleep talk, and we had a short conversation. Of course, he had no recollection of this the following morning. I'll await your explanation of this. LOL.
The experience of sleeping is still something of a mystery, somehow, incredibly important activity takes place in our brains while we are asleep and not conscious of that activity. (Dreaming is an exception to that rule). We seem to cycle through every state of consciousness, including near wakefulness while asleep. There is a link somewhere that shows the different types of brain waves that are generated at different stages in a sleep cycle, which generally lasts for about 90 minutes. You may have noticed that if you are awakened at the 'wrong' time you do not feel 'rested'. Sometimes it is better to be awakened after a 90 minute 'nap', at the end of a cycle, than it is to sleep longer but be awakened right in the middle of a sleep cycle...

Your brother appeared to be at the end of one cycle and entering a second cycle...(?)

Ability to manipulate the dream world via the waking world, and the inability of the reverse to happen, is definitive proof that the waking world is greater.
I am not sure of the validity of this observation as a generality - I can access the dream world, via memories of dreams anytime I am awake. In addition there does seem to be an active link between waking use of imagination and one's dream state. The 'importance' of dreams vs wakefulness (or the states of consciousness associated with each) is a relative matter, depending on different criteria. I do know the easiest way to break a prisoner down for the purpose of interrogation, is through dream deprivation...?

Here is an interesting link, that has some Jung quotes on the subject...
http://www.mythsdreamssymbols.com/jungspirituality.html

.

 

[Firehazard159]

BTw- I have been a lucid dreamer for over 50 years and I learned to manipulate my dreams at an early age. There are different types and levels to the experiences of dreaming.

I have had hundreds if not thousands of pre-cognitive dreams, (usually just snap shot images of places I have not yet visited or people I have not yet met). This is primary reason that I think that in some way, that indeed, Dreams reflect a valid POV of reality. Again Time as we know it does not exist in the dream world - so there does not seem to be a barrier between Now and Tomorrow...

I agree with dave, I think that there are some unique metaphysical (perhaps extra-dimensional) qualities that are exhibited in the human brain..

I know I've had at least one pre-cognitive dream, which really weirded me out. But, you've got me wondering now, if I have more (but tend to fail to realize them / remember them). Reason being, I have deja vu happen ridiculously often, things that I know weren't even remotely similar to any past experience, yet, I still feel like I've experienced it before, in a nearly exact manner, though sometimes I can tell certain details are different, I feel like I can say with full confidence which elements are unfamiliar to the 'original' event.

Then I think I must be crazy and move on after being bewildered for a while >.>

 

[Firehazard159]

Ability to manipulate the dream world via the waking world, and the inability of the reverse to happen, is definitive proof that the waking world is greater.

Usually, when I go to sleep, dreams are fresh to me, whatever I was feeling as I go to sleep, I do not feel in the dream (that I can remember, at least.) However, I've felt intense emotions upon waking up in the real world, caused by the dream world, very often. Although, generally, when I wake up I feel entirely refreshed - exactly how I feel when I enter the dream worlds. It's a new day, a new life, every time I wake up in either world, so to speak.

Edit: rather than posting more posts as I catch up to this awesome thread, lol, I'll just add more in here:

I never have a problem telling the difference when I'm awake (then again, I haven't tried any drugs), and I very rarely have any trouble telling the difference when I'm asleep. I suppose that this is the norm, given what I've heard and read. I assume this is a strong reason to believe that the waking world is more real or more important or more whatever. But, I agree that it's just an assumption.

Pondering different potentials - and this is just the fantasy that my mind is conjuring up - but what if the 'waking world' is extremely important in correlation with the dream world?

In an example: Let's say, in the dream world, we're infinite beings, angels, or something greater like that, living in a heaven of sorts. Use your imagination to substitute whatever words fit better for you, if you prefer an atheist, agnostic, or theist approach, aliens in another multiverse instead of angels in heaven, whatever. My point is, the 'other' that we are while dreaming, may require the 'wake' state in order to develop, and once we die in the 'waking world' we fully awaken / develop in the dream world, and are entirely free there.

Granted, just a fantasy built around the thoughts floating in this thread, but still, the possibilities!

 

[Vrecknidj]

Usually, when I go to sleep, dreams are fresh to me, whatever I was feeling as I go to sleep, I do not feel in the dream (that I can remember, at least.) However, I've felt intense emotions upon waking up in the real world, caused by the dream world, very often.

I can report the exact same situation for me. Usually, dreams do not feel related to anything that's happened in my recent external world events. Also, I sometimes have dreams with such emotional potency that I'm affect for hours (if not the whole day).

Although, generally, when I wake up I feel entirely refreshed - exactly how I feel when I enter the dream worlds.

This, however, is almost never true for me anymore. Until I was about 20 or so, this was true. Since I've had kids and a mortgage and loads of stress, even sleep doesn't relax me. I might wake up refreshed 5 or 10 days every year.

Dave

 

[Firehazard159]

Heh, well I'm only 22 myself, and I did debate posting that simply because I often don't feel as refreshed, per say, but I do feel emotionally reset generally. IE: If I go to sleep really pissed off / depressed / upset, I'll wake up feeling fairly neutral, and upon remembering the upsetting event from the previous night, I can handle it better, or it seems irrelevant somehow, I can objectively go about it.

 

[komiyama-nahori]

When I'm asleep, the "waking world," I presume, goes about its business. Others continue to experience one another and the world, etc. Barring something like the world as described by George Berkeley (but without God), I think that there are consistencies and continuities that pervade and describe the waking world.

When I'm awake, the "dreaming world," perhaps, goes about its business as well. It seems like the dreaming world isn't really that, it seems like it's my dreaming world. That is, that the world of my dreams and the world of your dreams are perhaps different worlds. One is within me, the other within you.

Perhaps my "dreaming world" and the "waking world" are radically different. Perhaps there is one "waking world" that we all share.... But perhaps not. Perhaps there is no thewaking world; just mine and yours, just like my dreaming world.

No matter, that is not the point I wish to explore here.

The main point I wish to explore is this.

What happens in my dream world when I'm not there? That is, when I'm awake, I'm in the waking world and not in the dreaming world. When I am dreaming, I'm in my dream world and not the waking world, but, when I do awaken, I find that the waking world is just as it was when I left it last. This is not true of the dream world. Very often, each time I enter the dream world, the details and different.

The waking world is characterized by things like F=ma and the Second Law of Thermodynamics, and Natural Selection, and pi = circumference / diameter. There may be laws of the dreaming world too, but I have not had the leisure or the prowess to find them.

My dreaming world seems to not follow the same rules of consistency and conformity and continuity that the waking world seems to exhibit. Perhaps, however, this is just because I haven't isolated and understood the laws that do apply in that realm.

I'm curious what goes on in the dream world when I'm awake. It seems that I cannot know because I cannot enter the dream world except when I'm not awake.

Still, I wonder.

Jung suggested that there's ALWAYS stuff going on in the dream world. The fact that we sometimes dream and enter that world is just a small bit of what goes on there.

And now, back to one of the other points. Perhaps my dream world and your dream world and anyone else's dream world do have similarities, or perhaps there are even laws that govern these worlds such that they all follow certain unalterable rules.

Curious.

Dave

Hey! Can I quote you in my blog?
I like your argument and it is a very interesting topic!

 

[Vrecknidj]

Hey! Can I quote you in my blog?
I like your argument and it is a very interesting topic!

Please feel free.

I don't know how much info you need. While I sign as Dave, my name is David Paul. Let me know if you need any details beyond my name and the material you wish to quote.

Dave

 

[Da Blob]

Eek! I typed in 'rosicrucians cult' for a Google search and I got 666,000 results...

I had a friend in college really get into "astral projection' via the rosicrucians/masons and I thought that might be a bit more historical-based account of that possibility in the dream world - as opposed to all the New Age crap floating around out there concerning the topic....?
However, after reading this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosicrucianism

I am a bit freaked - I thought the Illuminati were the only secret society to be concerned about...

 

[Vrecknidj]

I spent a bit of time studying the Rosicrucians as a result of my earlier infatuation with Newton and alchemy and lots of funky things. Didn't really get a connection to the dream world back then, maybe I'll have to explore it again. I suspect Astral Projection stuff to be false, but, then, I won't write it off as impossible.

Dave

 

[snafupants]

When Joe American is venturing down the streets, window shopping, hopping from one commodity to another, Joe American is in a severe beta state. Joe American loves commercials because they tickle his fancy for everything new and improved, he demeans his cohorts and curries favor with his boss, and copulates with his wife as often as possible. Additionally, Joe may be developing an addiction to tasty scotch whiskey and a little nose candy; the latter used to improve his work efficiency and counteract the former. This is the waking state for Joe American.

 

[Abraxas]

I like this thread!

Unfortunately at the moment I'm too busy to read all the posts, but I think I got a decent picture in order to post my own experiences on exploration of THE DREAM WORLD. This is pretty freaking wierd, but true!

I have a very good friend that has three unspeakably disobidient children. They've literally driven her insane. On numerous occasions I've tried to advise her on how to get back the psychological advantage from her children. She seemed to be too exhausted to be able to carry out my advise.

At the moment I had taken an interest towards teachings considering "The All Seeing Eye". During studying the subject, I started to master lucid dreaming.

So one time when I was falling a sleep, I decided to dream of my friend and the problem with her children. In that dream I was in a room with just the children. I shapeshifted into their mother in order to get a good feeling on how she felt around her children. The kids went on with their oppressive ways. But the fact that I was their mother in the dream made me react very strongly and I think that I turned into some kind of a horrible monster scaring the crap out of those kids!

So far, nothing too wierd, right?! Well a few days later me, my friend and her kids were discussing dreams in general. Eventually the conversation led into dreams about me that the kids had seen. Two of them said to have seen me in their dreams (nightmares) with two heads or faces, the other normal and the other face a demon-like with red eyes and everything.

I wasn't sure what happened (not sure even now), but later I decided to try this again, this time with an idiot I know, who (I thought) needed to be thought a lesson. So when I was falling a sleep I thought of this "idiot" and in a while I was a sleep. But this time the dream was a bit different than I had expected. In this dream I was in a vessel of some sort. The vessel was flying in a futuristic city and I was accompanied by some person. I also heard a voice (not sure if it was that persons voice) warning me of my actions in the dream world. It said that "In here(the dream world) everything affects everything. So you should choose your actions carefully!" Ever since then, my dreams have been more of a positive kind.

Logical explanation:

Spoiler

The kids had unconsciously observed my unconscious gestures that imply my irritation towards their actions. That resulted them in dreaming about me as a semi-demon punishing them for their actions. And the voice in my dream was my suppressed guilty conscious talking to me.

BTW, Da Blob, if you haven't already written a thread on lucid dreaming, I suggest you would. Thanks!