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What evidence is there for the existence of atoms?

Saeros

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It kinda seems like everyone just takes it for granted that everything in the universe is made of atoms, but is there actually any evidence? it seems like they can't really be observed, so there probably isn't any empirical evidence. Is it still just completely theoretical? A theory doesn't really sound like a solid foundation on which to base other theories... If there's no evidence of atoms, then how can people posit the existense of protons, or electrons, or quarks, etc? it seems like a kind of weak framework on which to build an understanding of the universe, asuming that we can really even understand the universe in any objective way...

of course, i could be completely wrong about all of that. I haven't really studied any of this in great detail. I'm just interested to hear (or at least read) your thoughts on the matter.
 

Marbas

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This timeline goes over the philosophical beginnings and the experimental confirmations of the atoms existence.

More importantly, the existence of the atom is also supported by the fact that myriad theoretical models that rely on its' existence are very very accurate. Of course, you could always argue about how there (theoretically) exists an infinite number models that give the same results mathematically, but that's more of a philosophical issue than a scientific one. And it can be applied to any scientific theory, not just atoms.
 

Saeros

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NeverAmI

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It kinda seems like everyone just takes it for granted that everything in the universe is made of atoms, but is there actually any evidence? it seems like they can't really be observed, so there probably isn't any empirical evidence. Is it still just completely theoretical? A theory doesn't really sound like a solid foundation on which to base other theories... If there's no evidence of atoms, then how can people posit the existense of protons, or electrons, or quarks, etc? it seems like a kind of weak framework on which to build an understanding of the universe, asuming that we can really even understand the universe in any objective way...

of course, i could be completely wrong about all of that. I haven't really studied any of this in great detail. I'm just interested to hear (or at least read) your thoughts on the matter.


I think about that sometimes as well. Atomism was originally posited by Leucippus in Ancient Greece. At that time it was mere theory. However, the name atom was perhaps mistakedly given to what we now know as the atom whereas in Leucippus's views, subparticles would be the real atoms, or if we find yet another smaller particle, then those would be the atoms in Leucippus' theory. In 5th century BC it was indeed just a theory.

Mathematical calculation has created a stronger inference and scientific objective interaction with what we know of as the atom and sub-particles infers that they exist. However, as we find with the wave/particle duality, our idea of matter is perhaps more subjective than we could have comprehended before. Einstein touched on the idea that our 'reality' is completely mandated by our limited comprehension, what we are able to perceive, our consciousness.

Direct observation through one of the senses, albeit with mechanical assistance, has been the last step in 'observing' the atom. Of course, what mandates that something is 'real' simply through your observation through senses? What makes anything real? If we have limited comprehension then how can we mandate what is real and what isn't real?

We can observe interactions outside our own ability to interact that alters what we observe through our senses, but what says that what we perceive through our senses or infer through the senses of other entities on earth (Sonar, etc) are the only things that exist?

The whole idea seems rather subjective to me.

Atoms are an inference that show objective intractability. The idea is to expand the scope, definitions are always subject to change.

The whole idea with science is to work with what we can comprehend and interact with and make inferences to the unknown based on those interactions. In the scientific realm, if those interactions are repeatable and predictable, then we infer it is real.
 

fullerene

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Rutherford Scattering Experiments were one of the biggest stepping stones... before that people thought matter was a lot like a pudding. These showed that the majority of matter was empty space, but that there were very dense, positive charges scattered throughout as well.

A lot of people considered Einstein's paper on Brownian Motion the real "proof" that they exist., though I'm not familiar enough with it to know why. There was a lot of furious debate, though, up until that point. Ernst Mach (who the Mach number is named for) thought that atoms were the dumbest theory in existence, and fought bitterly with Ludwig Boltzmann (who believed in them, but committed suicide in 1906, before he even found out he was right) for many years over it.

Today, though, I think images from the scanning tunneling microscope are the best/clearest evidence we have. Hard to argue with pictures.
 

NeverAmI

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Rutherford Scattering Experiments were one of the biggest stepping stones... before that people thought matter was a lot like a pudding. These showed that the majority of matter was empty space, but that there were very dense, positive charges scattered throughout as well.

A lot of people considered Einstein's paper on Brownian Motion the real "proof" that they exist., though I'm not familiar enough with it to know why. There was a lot of furious debate, though, up until that point. Ernst Mach (who the Mach number is named for) thought that atoms were the dumbest theory in existence, and fought bitterly with Ludwig Boltzmann (who believed in them, but committed suicide in 1906, before he even found out he was right) for many years over it.

Today, though, I think images from the scanning tunneling microscope are the best/clearest evidence we have. Hard to argue with pictures.


o_O I will have to study what you presented. Thanks!
 

Madoness

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It kinda seems like everyone just takes it for granted that everything in the universe is made of atoms, but is there actually any evidence? it seems like they can't really be observed, so there probably isn't any empirical evidence. Is it still just completely theoretical? A theory doesn't really sound like a solid foundation on which to base other theories...

Warning: Gravity is “Only a Theory”

Float away now! And don't fail! :beatyou: Do not base your other "theories" on there being gravity.
Unplug your electrical machines.... they actually only work through magic. Even more, don't ever pay electrical bills, now that you know. When at summer, using [bimgx=250]http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2319/2390672106_5b0ce165db.jpg[/bimgx] , do not use the ones from this or from last year.... because they're somewhat based on evolutionary theory. Use the one you still have waiting in the garage since the 90s. Because after all... mosqitoes have not evolved to be immune to the one you're trying to use then.

Oh there are so many theories.... if we could assume them being weak. Think about how much are you ripped.... electricity is just magic, yet we all seem to pay the bills. Nuclear theory... again... just magic. Why must we have army against.... magic, ater all, it is only a theory, weak framework? :eek::storks:

If there's no evidence of atoms, then how can people posit the existense of protons, or electrons, or quarks, etc? it seems like a kind of weak framework on which to build an understanding of the universe, asuming that we can really even understand the universe in any objective way...
of course, i could be completely wrong about all of that. I haven't really studied any of this in great detail. I'm just interested to hear (or at least read) your thoughts on the matter.
http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/newton/askasci/1993/physics/PHY118.HTM
 

Saeros

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Warning: Gravity is “Only a Theory”

Float away now! And don't fail! :beatyou: Do not base your other "theories" on there being gravity.
Unplug your electrical machines.... they actually only work through magic. Even more, don't ever pay electrical bills, now that you know. When at summer, using [bimgx=250]http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2319/2390672106_5b0ce165db.jpg[/bimgx] , do not use the ones from this or from last year.... because they're somewhat based on evolutionary theory. Use the one you still have waiting in the garage since the 90s. Because after all... mosqitoes have not evolved to be immune to the one you're trying to use then.

Oh there are so many theories.... if we could assume them being weak. Think about how much are you ripped.... electricity is just magic, yet we all seem to pay the bills. Nuclear theory... again... just magic. Why must we have army against.... magic, ater all, it is only a theory, weak framework? :eek::storks:

Good point :) I didn't think about it like that. Maybe electricity is "magic"... I don't think there's a very good definition of what magic is, electricity could be called magic.
Maybe we just come up with theories that seem to fit, but we could still be wrong about our assumptions. Just because people use rational observations to "prove" theories, it doesn't mean that they're absolutely right. It doesn't necessarily mean that they've discovered some absolute truth about the universe. Maybe absolute knowledge, or at least absolute certainty, about the universe is impossible.
Maybe electricity, and gravity, etc, work in an entirely different way to how we understand them. Wouldn't that be interesting? Someone could just come along in the future and debunk the theories of which people are so certain.
In a story, the plot is specifically designed so that the detective's theories work out, and they usually aren't right the first few times. Also, I would question how reliable observations of the world can possibly be.
 

Hawkeye

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Magic is one of the more prettier words used to describe that which is not known.
 

BigApplePi

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Magic is one of the more prettier words used to describe that which is not known.

If teeny tiny things got together in wave forms energetic and some of them congealed to behave like globs called matter while others flew around to behave more like orbiting energy all the while listening to matter curving their space and decided to form "atoms", then that happened like magic.

If you approve, vote yes; if you disapprove, vote no. Either way we're stuck with not knowing what we've got.
 

Reverse Transcriptase

"you're a poet whether you like it or not"
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I heard this story, apparently the chemists believed the atom theory before the physicists did. The chemical reactions... just made sense from an atom-model. What really did it for the physicists, though, were the gas laws. That the pressure of gas can be represented as a lot of atoms bouncing off a surface. That the temperature of gas can be represented as energy in an atom.
PV=nRT !
 

Hawkeye

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If teeny tiny things got together in wave forms energetic and some of them congealed to behave like globs called matter while others flew around to behave more like orbiting energy all the while listening to matter curving their space and decided to form "atoms", then that happened like magic.

If you approve, vote yes; if you disapprove, vote no. Either way we're stuck with not knowing what we've got.

I'd vote yes purely on the basis of how 'magic' works.

I invented a magic trick a couple of years ago. It's nothing mind blowingly fantastic. I simply make a pen disappear from my hand with my sleeves rolled up. The actual method is really simple yet really effective. When I casually show it to people the look on their faces is priceless. They have no idea where it goes. This is magic. The moment the secret of how I do it is revealed; the magic is lost.

That's why I think it would be hilariously ironic if we discovered the 'meaning of life' to be nothing more than a cheap party trick.

For all we know, our bubble that is the Universe could be an 'atom' in the leg of a colossal coffee table. :D
 

BigApplePi

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I'd vote yes purely on the basis of how 'magic' works.

I invented a magic trick a couple of years ago. It's nothing mind blowingly fantastic. I simply make a pen disappear from my hand with my sleeves rolled up. The actual method is really simple yet really effective. When I casually show it to people the look on their faces is priceless. They have no idea where it goes. This is magic. The moment the secret of how I do it is revealed; the magic is lost.

That's why I think it would be hilariously ironic if we discovered the 'meaning of life' to be nothing more than a cheap party trick.

For all we know, our bubble that is the Universe could be an 'atom' in the leg of a colossal coffee table. :D

So it's magic if we can't beiieve it and no problem when we know what's going on. If our Universe is "an 'atom' in the leg of a colossal coffee table", doesn't that make one want to consult with God for the explanation?
Hawkeye, when it comes to pen-manship, you are God.
After all, whether it's magic or not, we are not going to have an explanation. INTP's, the best of the intuitives are helpless.
 

Agent Intellect

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They actually have a technique for scanning atoms down to the femtometer scale (1*10^-15 meters). It's very cutting edge, and when they took the first closest look at the constituent parts of an atom, this is what they found:

god.gif
 

Architectonic

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Saeros, you may also wish to look up spectroscopy, as well as particle accelerators.

Though you may need to brush up on your physics to understand what is actually going on.

Agent Intellect - this is what I observed when I used an STM to measure the surface of graphite (common undergrad practical):

1christ-middle-finger-300x298.jpg
 
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