What do you guys think of this?

[Interdimensionist]

Some of you are probably familiar with the conundrum of the two identical doormen, one guarding a door to heaven and the other a door to hell. The doorman guarding the door to hell is a known liar and the one guarding the door to heaven always tells the truth. You have one question to ask in order to discern which door to choose, what do you ask?

The accepted answer is to ask: 'If I ask the other guard, which door would he point to as the correct door?' and to then chose the opposite door however I came up with the idea that you could also ask: 'Are all doormen honest?'

Assuming the doorman guarding the door to hell always lies, he will answer yes. As we know this is false we can safely make the assumption that the other door is the one leading to heaven but I was then told that this was incorrect as both doormen would in fact answer 'no'.

Would this not mean that the liar is using deceit and in this case actually telling the truth to trick us and if so, would that not mean he would be able to tell the truth if you ask him which door the other guard would point to, indicating the correct door and conning you into choosing his one?

Logically, if we say that to ask 'Are all doormen honest?' is wrong as the liar could trick us by telling the truth does this then not nullify the supposed correct answer and turn this into an impossible conundrum? The only way I can see this working is if you state implicitly that the guard to hell is incapable of telling the truth in which case asking 'Are all doormen honest? would also be correct.

To me it seems that there is more than one way to answer this question, what do you guys reckon? Am I missing a link in my chain of logic here?

 

[Rook]

I have found that the descent into the Stygian abyss is far more pleasurable without having to worry about conundrums such as these. Just choose a door at random and hope you end up with the beggars, pirates and gigolos.

 

[Interdimensionist]

Hey, you left out the nipple clamps. You're in for a pretty shitty eternal damnation if you forget them at home.

 

[Cognisant]

Who are these doormen, do they have parents, siblings, peers, children, were they born, will they die, do they get time off, are they paid?

I tell them both I want to go to hell, neither has any reason to direct me elsewhere.

 

[Pyropyro]

I'll challenge the doormen in a children's card game with Rook. That will sort them out and give us the right door.

 

[Hadoblado]

My understanding is that the lying guard is compelled to lie always, but that you don't know which guard is in front of which door. So the truth speaker could be guarding the gate to hell.

If the lier is not compelled to always lie, the riddle is impossible (I think?). You could never tell the lier from the truth teller, as he could opt to never lie. Unless you know he would never lie even though he could, you can't knowingly act on any information he imparts.

If you know that the truth speaker guards the door to heaven, and that the lier always lie, you could ask any question to which you already know the answer. Does 2+2=4? Yes -> heaven, no -> hell.

So it's either too easy or too hard unless you assume the lier must always lie, and that the guards are assigned doors at random. Only in this situation does the solution (of asking what door the other guard would point to if asked which one leads to heaven) work without also allowing many other solutions. Then the truth teller would truthfully point to the door to hell, and the lier would lie about which door the truthteller would point to, pointing to the door to hell.

 

[Interdimensionist]

Who are these doormen, do they have parents, siblings, peers, children, were they born, will they die, do they get time off, are they paid?

They are both god and the devil retrospectively and also the same person simultaneously floating on a marshmallow cloud we call the universe in a turtle's dream.

The turtle is a metaphor for god in this scenario and he drives a bitching countach across the galaxy or maybe I'm just sleep deprived cos it's FOUR O' CLOCK IN THE GOD-TURTLE DAMN MORNING AND YOU'RE ALL LINES OF SENTIENT CODE!
edit: quarter to five to be precise, wtf is time anymore?
edit 2: Ima just gonna quietly come back and fix the fact I wrote your instead of you're, ain't nothing to see here folks. Move along, move along.

 

[Turnevies]

My understanding is that the lying guard is compelled to lie always, but that you don't know which guard is in front of which door. So the truth speaker could be guarding the gate to hell.

this

 

[Seteleechete]

Well, at least your situation is slightly simpler in that the deceitful guard always guards hell. The only way to ascertain who is right is trying to outwit/deceive the deceitful guard (if this is possible).

like "how could I with certainty ascertain which door is correct". The honest guard would say you cannot. The deceitful guard might give you a convincing explanation on why it is honest. This is a small hope though as outwitting an eternal guardsman of deceit is sketchy.


Maybe a better question would be "Why should I go through your gate?" Trying to play on the deceitful subjective nature of the guard and the objective truthful nature of the other(because he wasn't also changed in this question, he wouldn't be able to answer a subjective question like this.)

Though in this potential solution it becomes relevant if the guards have a subjective desire at all(beyond being truthful for one and deceitfully convince one to go to hell for the other.) It really is playing on the fact that you introduced subjective values to one but not both of the guards.

How exactly these values look is relevant to potentially solving this conundrum also relevant is how good of an insight the deceitful guard has on you.

 

[Interdimensionist]

My understanding is that the lying guard is compelled to lie always, but that you don't know which guard is in front of which door. So the truth speaker could be guarding the gate to hell.

So it's either too easy or too hard unless you assume the lier must always lie, and that the guards are assigned doors at random. Only in this situation does the solution (of asking what door the other guard would point to if asked which one leads to heaven) work without also allowing many other solutions. Then the truth teller would truthfully point to the door to hell, and the lier would lie about which door the truthteller would point to, pointing to the door to hell.

This makes more sense if they swap doors otherwise the other solution still holds in my mind assuming he can only lie, no-one else I asked seemed capable of understanding what I was asking they all just assumed I misunderstood the answer and it's like no, I just thought your little puzzle through without having to resort to googling the accepted solution and thought I saw potential for a different way.

I still get that asking which door the other will say is correct will have both guards point out hell but I also see that if I ask an obvious question which one guard will answer honestly and the other dishonestly (assuming they are in front of their respective doors) then I will know which guard is which and which door to pick.
To say this is wrong because the liar could deceive me by telling the truth instantly makes the other solution wrong as well because um, logic? Nobody could see this for some reason or they told me that I would only know who the liar is and not which door to take, if they don't have to be in front of their respective doors then yeah I accept that, just make it clear from the start ya know?

Sorry rant over.

 

[Rook]

I'll challenge the doormen in a children's card game with Rook. That will sort them out and give us the right door.

Ah yes, Yu-Gi-Oh card trading exposed us wee primary school apelings to a black-market like system of economics, thereby preparing our brains for dealing with drug dealers.

Therefore, a whole generation have no choice of doors and are shoved into Tartarus due to their pre-adolescent trading of satanic rectangles.