Weekend with ESTJ

[ItsRelative]

Well his my stepfather who's seen lots of hardship and has chronic pains because of hard physical work he still does. I have had many conflicts with him even in adulthood, we are like day and night. He has good hearth and so much improved upon what he once was.

He likes to talk about his interests endlessly, these topics ofc include economics, his work and work in general and get's annoyed if interrupted thinking "you should be interested as it help you survive in life". Sometimes we get to some common ground, but even tho i'm careful i often slip some idea in there that doesn't compute with his world. These could be anything INTP loves to talk about or how we tend to say things, some examples of his reactions:
* If i let him know my interest of something that can be bought he immediately assumes i'm planning on buying it and starts to criticise my supposed investment.
* If i muse what would be occupation best suited for me he tells me to stop fantasizing and give 100% to what i do now.
* If i tell him anything that goes over his head he tells me to not think stuff like that because it's pointless.

Confronting him is impossible because you cant have intelligent argument and if you try you get attacked by army of very nasty brain cells in disarray.

He thinks i'm very smart, but attacks me when i show it. There was nuclear physics professor next door he appointed me to telling we would come along well and indeed we did, But that's different story and interesting in it's own right. It was very nice gesture of him and i was stunned as you don't find physics professors to chat for leisure behind every corner.

Any of you know ESTJs and how do you cope with them? i'm at loss here.

 

[Jedi]

My step-dad is ISTJ and is very similar to your description. It's very hard to find common ground as we are so different. I also have a good friend who is an ESTJ, we get along great if we're cracking jokes as we have a similar sense of humor, but once it drifts into serious topics we'll debate endlessly (which is actually kinda fun).

My advice is to either avoid the things you know he'll respond negatively to, or call him out on his shit. ESTJs tend to enjoy verbal sparring and it could just be his way of trying to get your gloves off.

 

[sammael]

If i tell him anything that goes over his head he tells me to not think stuff like that because it's pointless.

Heh. Yep, I've lost count of the number of times I've been told I think too much.

Any of you know ESTJs and how do you cope with them? i'm at loss here.

From my experience, the combination of SJ and NP is not a good one. Our fundamental differences are too big. It would be exceedingly unwise to judge on personality type, however I have never connected past a shallow level with someone I later found out to be an SJ, especially xSTJ. It can be tolerated if we are working on something together, but outside of that the interaction is simply not fulfilling or satisfying, and often frustrating.

ESTJs tend to enjoy verbal sparring and it could just be his way of trying to get your gloves off.

Erm.. are you sure your friend is an ESTJ? ESTJs are generally very opinionated, impatient, narrow-minded and have a tendency to believe they are always right. Not the most ideal conversation partner.

 

[GYX_Kid]

Confronting him is impossible because you cant have intelligent argument and if you try you get attacked by army of very nasty brain cells in disarray.

They think you're having a power struggle or picking a dick-fight.
Being combative like that isn't a terrible thing to learn though, as a matter of fact- if you want to learn to communicate with all kinds of people. Even if it does seem like a dumb game from a purely logical point of view, it is their language. Te and Ti are opposites in their own way, and if only going their natural course, projection will only get dumped one-way into the Ti unless you do something outward. Like, you can't speak english to a bear. To get a point across you have to stand up taller and growl louder.

I had an ESTJ roommate who ended up driving me to pull a bad prank on him at the end of the year. Pretty pseudo-inhumane actually. Then later the next year an ENTJ did virtually the same thing to me as I had done, but at least 10x more evil. So I apologized to the ESTJ and he had already forgiven me anyway. Then he acted friendly to me and I felt undeserving of it. I just want to mutilate and kill the ENTJ now. This one didn't even have blunt dick-fights, it's more like extreme passive-aggressive diseased turd dodgeball with the lights out.

Turning off all feelings disagrees with that, though. But my pure rationalism puts some value on emotions, even though it might not know exactly how they work economically and how the value makes sense relative to everything else they work with (but I'm learning).

 

[Jedi]

Erm.. are you sure your friend is an ESTJ? ESTJs are generally very opinionated, impatient, narrow-minded and have a tendency to believe they are always right. Not the most ideal conversation partner.

Yes I'm sure. What makes a good "conversation partner"? And when did I imply they were?

 

[ItsRelative]

They think you're having a power struggle or picking a dick-fight.

That makes total sense because when i was younger and more outward i had huge fights with him to the point of me making him resort to violence so he can be right. Some of it sure is teen rage and all that, but i always where more stable than usual kids, i sometimes just felt i was so right that i could not go back on my words. That's past now, but could it be that ESTJ who likes to base everything on the past cant see that so well, also he could be still having some major family hierarchy going on as he tends to go into "teaching" mode to get point across, Either bend and accept him as superior all knowing or value myself and fight back. So twisted, i don't want to play games like that.

Edit: Promised myself to learn ways of this hu-man, feelings, conflict and most of all practicality to advance me in this futile game, but the more i learn, the more illogical it all becomes.

 

[sammael]

What makes a good "conversation partner"?

That's a good point. Of course what makes good conversation will vary dependant on the individual and his/her specific interests. However the conversations INTPs tend to gravitate towards and find satisfying are those about theories, possibilities, the abstract etc which you would already know, and anybody could easily gather from an INTP profile. Anyway, the things that really interest and draw us in are very different from the things that interest and draw in ESTJs as you have already noted, meaning it is unlikely for an INTP and an ESTJ to have what both would consider a great conversation.

It doesn't fit the profile that an ESTJ would be interested in debating endlessly, or in verbal sparring, those are far more the domain of the INTP (not exclusively of course). Most INTPs would find someone who was capable of such things interesting and highly likely a good conversation partner if they had similar interests.

 

[ItsRelative]

Any conversation parther is good when he/she is able to chance your view about something or add perspective, point out holes in your logic or just concur and solidify an idea. For INTP ofc

 

[GYX_Kid]

 

[Jedi]

That's a good point. Of course what makes good conversation will vary dependant on the individual and his/her specific interests. However the conversations INTPs tend to gravitate towards and find satisfying are those about theories, possibilities, the abstract etc which you would already know, and anybody could easily gather from an INTP profile. Anyway, the things that really interest and draw us in are very different from the things that interest and draw in ESTJs as you have already noted, meaning it is unlikely for an INTP and an ESTJ to have what both would consider a great conversation.

Yes INTPs will typically talk about theories and possibilities, while the Te users base their conversations much more around concrete facts, but I don't see how this wouldn't make a good conversation. Both parties are thinkers and the Te'er will give the INTP a good challenge to articulate their ideas into a language others would understand.

It doesn't fit the profile that an ESTJ would be interested in debating endlessly, or in verbal sparring, those are far more the domain of the INTP (not exclusively of course). Most INTPs would find someone who was capable of such things interesting and highly likely a good conversation partner if they had similar interests.

You said earlier that ESTJs are "very opinionated, impatient, narrow-minded and have a tendency to believe they are always right." I don't see how this would stand in the way of an endless debate. Sean Hannity, an ESTJ, is always debating and has all the qualities quoted above (tho it's true in his case I think the stereotype is overblown). If any function was the "debate function" it'd be Te.

 

[Dapper Dan]

Yes INTPs will typically talk about theories and possibilities, while the Te users base their conversations much more around concrete facts, but I don't see how this wouldn't make a good conversation. Both parties are thinkers and the Te'er will give the INTP a good challenge to articulate their ideas into a language others would understand.



You said earlier that ESTJs are "very opinionated, impatient, narrow-minded and have a tendency to believe they are always right." I don't see how this would stand in the way of an endless debate. Sean Hannity, an ESTJ, is always debating and has all the qualities quoted above (tho it's true in his case I think the stereotype is overblown). If any function was the "debate function" it'd be Te.

I think you're talking about arguing, not debating.

 

[Jedi]

I think you're talking about arguing, not debating.

A debate is a formal argument, call it what you will.

 

[ItsRelative]

When debate get's too emotional and one side starts to lose touch on the conversation then i feel it starts to resemble arguing. Argument and arguing is very different, where argument is one opposing idea in a debate and arguing more like what i pictured above.

Edit: Now that i think more about it, i was bit wrong there, arguing can indeed be seen as intelligent conversation, it's just that when you have been repeatedly told "don't argue with me" and you do, leading to a fight it makes you see it bit differently.

 

[Dapper Dan]

A debate is a formal argument, call it what you will.

To be good at arguing you must be opinionated enough to care, aggressive enough to talk over the opponent, and absolutely sure that you're right.

To be good at debating, you must be rational enough to make sound arguments, patient enough to hear the opponent's points, and able to see the weaknesses in your own position.

A typical ESTJ only fits one of these profiles.

 

[Jedi]

To be good at arguing you must be opinionated enough to care, aggressive enough to talk over the opponent, and absolutely sure that you're right.

A person who is "good" at arguing is just someone who is bad at debating.

A typical ESTJ only fits one of these profiles.

From my experience with the ESTJ I know, I can't argue (or debate) with that. Having said that I still do enjoy our conversations even when we do debate (or argue). His extroverted confrontation keeps me attentive and on my toes. Conversing with somebody who is so stuck in their ways offers a challenge to change their mind by trapping them in their own flawed logic.

I can understand how this would be difficult with an elder family member though. You want to point out where they're wrong without offending or disrespecting them. My step-dad is an ISTJ Fox News zombie, when he brings up politics I usually try to change the subject into something we can both agree on, which isn't much.

EDIT: Regarding the examples you mentioned in the OP ItsRelatve, I would just try not to worry about it and continue to talk about whatever you want to talk about. If he's got a problem with everything it's his problem. You can't expect to have a great conversation with him if he's not going to put forth any effort himself.