We are not 'fine' all the time.

[BurnedOut]

This is a common problem I have noticed among INTPs. The stronger their Ti and Ne is, the worse this problem gets.

Firstly, Ne is the extraverted judging function of an INTP. It means that rather than honing in on a conclusion, it seeks to expand the current scope considerably. This puts Ne in direct odds with both Si and Ti which seek to deduce than induce. The brilliance of an INTP comes from this conflict between Ti and Ne and Ne and Si. The more intelligent an INTP is, the worse this conflict gets which leads to great originality of thought.

However, there are some moments when an INTP seeks to use his Si to contain the apparent bullshit speculation provided by Ne by providing him with a bunch of experiences. Many times, the Ti will accept the Si input after a bit of tweaking and go along with it if the INTP is determined to be conservative in that particular situation. This is what dominantly happens when INTP is a leader or is made to make an important decision. It comes rather quickly and efficiently because all the INTP has to do is pick from a set of already-analyzed experiences and memories, tweak it according to the situation and put it to task. If during decision making in crisis situations, Ne is entertained, it will wreak havoc on everyone, including the INTP himself. If Ne is not tamed with either Si (badgered into accepting experience) (likely in a stressful situation) or Ti (reduction of Ne input into naught), it will create a lot of self-doubt and fuck the situation due to the excessive self-doubt it will create. In this situation, Fe also springs into action because the self-doubt and the inability to decide aptly in the moment evokes distress. Distress causes Si to get triggered to silent the Ne but as Fe also springs into action, the INTP starts remembering how he has hurt or pissed people in the past by his indecisiveness. If Ti is unable to deem this as nonlogical and inapt in such a situation, then the INTP is fucked.

Immature INTPs are prone to this analysis overdrive where instead of getting rid of the feeling of inadequacy, it becomes the object of Ti which works in tandem with Si to analyze the insecurities spewed by Fe. It is hard to control this insecurity because the Ti feels that this is a logical issue to deal with. Why? Let us deal with the reasons enumerated
1. Because it should not happen again and again and fuck up the decision. If the decision is not taken, its fine but the inconvenience should end quickly.
2. Dealing with insecurity is a logical thing to do because if it is not done, it can cause problems to thinking.
3. Other 'such insecurities' must be dealt with posthaste because a leader/decision-maker cannot risk being this confused.
4. The best way to suppress insecurity is to prove how immature and illogical these thoughts are. (Always leads to metaphysical pondering because the problem is solved quickly. Then the metaphysical problems plunge the INTP into another existential oblivion which causes more self-doubt)

This is problematic because the Fe is asking for a simple thing - reassurance - to be received and to be given. A mature INTP who can properly employ his Fi with tons of training, will recognize the intentions and feelings and insecurities of himself and others and use Fe to calm everybody down and in the process, also accept that he is using functions in an unhealthy manner and get back to the drawing board with the sole purpose of making a decision which he is then able to.

Another mature INTP with good training of using Ti with Si with Te will realize that if he does not get back to the drawing board and fans insecurity by paying it attention will create a havoc. Therefore, he will use some Ti-Si to come up with a deduction and use Te to implement it swiftly. An INTP can be a good leader if he is able to employ his Te and Si effectively.

Another mature INTP will delegate Ti processes to Ni and take a back seat. Then with the help of Si and Te, he will implement the decision that seems the most logical on the surface. This is kind of immature because it will later evoke problems for the INTP as he will suddenly notice a lot of logical flaws. Nevertheless, it gets the job done.

Bottomline is that, in order to mature, INTPs need to rope in functions that they don't expect themselves to use. These involve
1) Te for implementing decisions
2) Fi for dealing with emotional problems of himself and others without getting overburdened by additional Ti processing. It also makes an INTP, a less asshole INTP.
3) Se for dealing with mind fog caused by an unrelenting thoughts
4) Ni for stopping excessive futile analysis and break Ti-Ne or Ti-Si or Ne-Si loops and prevent breakdowns. Having a good Ni helps an INTP be quite assertive and self-assured because he can trust to derive deductions from the already existing information and simply hone it using Ti and Ne.

I believe that contrary to the normal perception of MBTI that shadow functions are greatly ignored or that they only emerge when the individual is fucked beyond reckoning, shadow functions are like unused tools that the individual can either abuse and act inauthentic or utilize to bolster the functioning of the currently used functions. This means that they can be used at will. They do not emerge under distress because there is no evidence of an INTP turning into ENFJ when stressed out. That's wild speculation which we should leave to other MBTI faux gurus online. Here, we all appreciate things being plausible and realistic than being conspiracy theories or products of wild flights of fantasy. I believe that, as psychology empirically contends, a person is generally predisposed to his common behaviour even during distress. It is just that he directs it in a negative manner and continues functioning under great duress and confusion. Thusly, I propose that INTP should develop his shadow functions and wield them properly in order to offset unhealthy passions and behaviours.

Secondly, INTPs are not as logical as you think. Having Ti means that it will automatically going to root for the metaphysics and since figuring the metaphysics is the goal in mind, it is going to make the theory extremely efficient. But when when the theory is made more efficient, it will then aim for the metaphysics and metaphysics are oblivion. This can lead INTP to many such intellectual oblivions which can make him very obsessed with intellectual matter and ignorant towards the pragmatic aspect of things. An ideal person with sound logical thinking abilities and at the same time, a stable predisposition understands that logic when applied to real life leads to a more efficient lifestyle. This is called being pragmatic. Being pragmatic has nothing to do with having a mind for making brilliant theories. An INTP can learn to be pragmatic or be good at sports or know how to enjoy. At the end, he will be under the cozy covers of Ti but Ti and Ne is so wonderful that when it is accoupled with one of the shadow functions, it can help in figuring out its utility and start delegations among functions properly learned via trial and error.

Please, just know that an INTP is not a retard in a wheelchair who only has a savant like ability to make ideas and who grunts when angry and throws tantrums at everybody and is treated like a 1 year old all the time who needs to be breastfed to be kept quiet.

----------------------------------------------------

I apologize for digressing so blatantly.

The crux of this thread was to discuss how INTPs are inherently self-destructive without the desire to mature and with insufficient immaturity. This is because INTPs have a predisposition that is, quite frankly, against well-being or possibility of a stable mind. This is because

Dominant function: Ti
Refining and concluding internally.

Judging function: Ne
Judging the outside world by exploring more possibilities in the environment

Auxiliary function: Si
Using collected information and concluding internally.

Inferior function: Fe
Organizing emotions that are displayed interpersonally.

You see, Ti-Ne-Si are quite toxic together. What makes an INTP quixotic is the fact that he is riddled with internal contradictions -

1. A reliance on ever expanding scope in order to conclude. Is that not weird?
2. Remembering salient information and then comparing it with the ever expanding scope. Then using the new pattern to conclude. That's weird again. There is a desire to settle but not settle but settle and it is an unhealthy loop.
3. Does experience count? Or does it not? But it's kinda illogical because it happened in the past. But I must have stored it after analysis. But am I not supposed to look for some other patterns? That's Ti-Ne-Si drama for you. Weird and unhealthy again.

Now, comes the underdog, Fe - a complete misfit among the Ti-Ne-Si who are predisposed to logic to an exaggerated extent. No wonder why INTP's are considered as either assholes or indecisive carpets.

The INTP, in order to deal with the drama inside the head, a very meta one, will end up leaving Fe to others or to the conventions. Then, the INTP's interactions will be based on what they observe in their immediate surroundings and the interactions they have in their inner circles. This is because Fe is ignored horribly but it needs to be used from time to time. However, there is no general respect for its functions or its utility. It is used as a tool and therefore, it is used lazily. Since Fe needs some mode of functioning, it is shoddily supplied some from the immediate environment.

This can make the INTP, a good guy or a toxic guy. But ultimately, the INTP won't get any kind of respect because he/she will always come off as inauthentic to the person they are interacting with. At the end, one thing remains authentic of the INTP is his sudden annoyance out of the blue among socially nice behaviour which is genuinely caused by the fact that the INTP is not really interested in interactions. The INTP needs a primal reassurance and hence, he or she will be sort of getting into toxic relationships wherein the partner is a breastfeeding mother of sorts who will tender and care for the INTP in a codependent manner while the INTP will try to fix the partner with his logic. Both will be content playing their toxic roles because the roles won't require any development of their inferior functions and shadow functions.

This brings me to one fatal flaw in the INTP's social behaviour after the problem of blatant pretension is the problem of being an emotional bully. This is quite common of all the INTP to a good extent, event the socially well-adjusted ones. The INTP inadvertently wants to solve the problem and will definitely get annoyed at the aspect of listening and listening to the other side (which will not be much). He will either be a blunt asshole or he will tell the other party to shut up or his disinterest will be apparent. Furthermore, if the INTP decides to make this apparent problem of the other party, a puzzle of his own, he will be aggressive enough to try to solve it or if the INTP characterizes it as an unfortunate product of Fe, he will isolate himself. In either of the cases, the INTP is kind of being quite emotionally abusive when the simple actions warranted listening and then reassuring and finis! The other party just wanted to vent.

The inability of the INTP is caused by the problem of letting their emotions control them inaptly by causing their insecurity or suppressing emotions and deadening inside. A carpet INTP (every INTP is a carpet to some extent) will try to empathetic inaptly by trying to solve the problems of others or getting hemmed in in the process of delivering advice in order to just have it rejected or try to fulfil the social obligation by inaptly being around the other party because, well, their Fe made them do so. A carpet INTP usually is emotionally exhausted, has quite a lot of breakdowns and yet continues with the obligations because, well, that's socially appropriate

A carpet INTP

INTPs really need to stop thinking that emotions are unimportant and cannot lend to the genuineness of an individual. They do. And every INTP should understand that they cannot be bloodsucking emotional leeches to their loved ones or be bloodsucked by a loved one. Fe is important. And so is Fi.

 

[BurnedOut]

Addendum 1

Won't an INTP figure out the drama that may be caused if they ignore a certain action regarding Fi and Fe?
>> Yes and No. INTPs are quick to dismiss even pragmatic stuff as illogical because it violates some framework inside their minds. Their imagination often causes perfectionism and the lack of practical thinking can be caused by an INTP getting burned out looking at the problems of the world and being able to do nothing about it. Sadly, the same INTP won't realize that they can change their own perception and base some of their frameworks on the environment which are tolerant of contradictions. Therefore, an INTP will recognize the threat and ignore it or undertake an impractical action or the INTP will not recognize the threat by downplaying it as unimportant.

Many INTPs I have seen are mature.
>> Yes, there are mature INTPs. These mature INTPs use their functions harmoniously in tandem with the shadow functions. However, these mature INTPs have mature groups and emotionally healthy people surrounding them. In many cases wherein an INTP is not mature, he is surrounded by immature people. The problem is that INTPs think of socializing utilitarian in the wrong manner. They can mimic behaviours shoddily and will continue to be with toxic people unless there is a grave incident or a realization or external intervention - all of which which arrives too late. What I am saying is that INTPs fail to realize quite often that socializing can be used to propel forward in life too. There is a cliche of INTPs being underdogs and it is true because many of them lack the drive and motivation simply because they hang with people who lack the drive and motivation. INTPs get inherently affected by their social surroundings and they are too stubborn to accept that that can have a lasting effect on their behaviour. This is unlike other types who have some kind of proactivity or functional harmony propelling them forward and making them more practical about living their lives.

 

[crippli]

This was very hard to digest. But interested in some of your observations. Very interested on the leadear stuff, as there are some poeople, higher up. To start.

Firstly, Ne is the extraverted judging function of an INTP. It means that rather than honing in on a conclusion, it seeks to expand the current scope considerably.

Expand? Isnt it more like instant reqogning?

 

[onesteptwostep]

In a nutshell INTPs, if they are not in a healthy environment, will spiral their thoughts into madness. The walls they build around for themselves are just mirrors which further confuses them, making them feel insecure and unsafe. Their own thoughts in the mirror at first look seductive, but the arrays and meta of their thoughts gives them anxiety, silence, and if further left to fester, despair. A lot of INTPs live in a world of text and thoughts, which is why there is an abundant amount INTPs on the internet, while they are a rarity in real life. INTPs would be good at being gods, but alas, we are mortal.

(p.s. I don't believe types are static. Types are malleable.)

 

[BurnedOut]

You got it

 

[ZenRaiden]

There is a more simple way of saying this... it took me more than 30 years to figure this out so hear me out. I have done so only recently.

First of all INTPs need to learn some soft skills, but there is only so much we can learn.

Ti is not a soft skill. INTP who enter society swinging their Ti around is like a 88 mm cannon attempting to breastfeed a baby.

We cannot approach social situations with Ti. That is why we need to have soft skills, but we cannot develop these skills on par with normal people.
My soft skills consist of saying stuff like Hello, Good bye, How are you... I am fine, good to see you, Have a nice day, please, thank you, for real? WoW that is amazing.... No way and some bit more. Its about half of A4 sheet of paper and after that I can do only sarcasm, cynicism, throw in a quip or a joke and that is it. Then I just hope you start talking about your self and ignore me.

So what do you do really?
Sun Tzu says fill the void. Find a unique spot in your society where having Ti as your primary mode of thinking that is introvert thinking, is tolerated and accepted and if possible even respected or Gods of heaven perhaps even understood.
That is the main reason why INTJs and INTPs live on the internet in books and only interact with people who are like minded and have similar hobbies.

So know your place. That is your spot and you sit there and do your Ti thing and don't bother other people and they will not bother you.
Learn to assert some basic healthy boundaries.
Do not expect something from people they cannot deliver. Vice versa do not act in way that is not authentic and inline with your nature to make people feel like they can expect something that is not there in the first place.

Yes we INTPs can be fairly social in limited capacity. For example an INTP can be great speaker. Or a stand up comic or a performance artist or actor, but that equates to idiot savant level skills. We can be extremely efficient and outstanding sale person, but having a cup of coffee will feel like torture with us.
That is problem, because usually when you master one social skill automatically it means people will stick around for too long only to find that you are just a stupid android with few pathetic social subroutines and a long ass script for a narrow function. It just does not work for us.

Fe is our warning system and social defense system it flares up, but usually when that happens we are already in trouble, because we have nothing to fall back on, so either we mimick others around us which is unauthentic and it feels like wiping ones ass with sandpaper, or we get a panic or anxiety attack or we act like awkward clowns. It simply is not us. The only way you can deal with it is in advance you use your Ne that gets feedback from Fe to know exactly where you ought to be and where you definitely do not want to be. When to speak and what to say and when to just fucking shut up.

If you learn this you are Golden. You might even find a place on this stupid planet where you can be yourself and not feel like an anomaly or a natures mistake. Till then have fun lol.

So next time you are waving your Ti around in common society don't expect people to like it or be positive about it.
The worst part is when our Ti is not working we get depressed, and obviously very unhappy and it can spiral out of control.
It takes lot of discipline to be able to swallow your pride, and ego and tuck that Ti in your pants and not act like a fool.
Its also the reason why we often look like complete idiots, autistic or narcissistic people. Its very hard for other social types to look at our Ti and interpret it in a way that is acceptable.

 

[onesteptwostep]

^

Basically, EQ.

 

[crippli]

There is a more simple way of saying this... it took me more than 30 years to figure this out so hear me out. I have done so only recently.

First of all INTPs need to learn some soft skills, but there is only so much we can learn.

Ti is not a soft skill. INTP who enter society swinging their Ti around is like a 88 mm cannon attempting to breastfeed a baby.

We cannot approach social situations with Ti. That is why we need to have soft skills, but we cannot develop these skills on par with normal people.
My soft skills consist of saying stuff like Hello, Good bye, How are you... I am fine, good to see you, Have a nice day, please, thank you, for real? WoW that is amazing.... No way and some bit more. Its about half of A4 sheet of paper and after that I can do only sarcasm, cynicism, throw in a quip or a joke and that is it. Then I just hope you start talking about your self and ignore me.

So what do you do really?
Sun Tzu says fill the void. Find a unique spot in your society where having Ti as your primary mode of thinking that is introvert thinking, is tolerated and accepted and if possible even respected or Gods of heaven perhaps even understood.
That is the main reason why INTJs and INTPs live on the internet in books and only interact with people who are like minded and have similar hobbies.

So know your place. That is your spot and you sit there and do your Ti thing and don't bother other people and they will not bother you.
Learn to assert some basic healthy boundaries.
Do not expect something from people they cannot deliver. Vice versa do not act in way that is not authentic and inline with your nature to make people feel like they can expect something that is not there in the first place.

Yes we INTPs can be fairly social in limited capacity. For example an INTP can be great speaker. Or a stand up comic or a performance artist or actor, but that equates to idiot savant level skills. We can be extremely efficient and outstanding sale person, but having a cup of coffee will feel like torture with us.
That is problem, because usually when you master one social skill automatically it means people will stick around for too long only to find that you are just a stupid android with few pathetic social subroutines and a long ass script for a narrow function. It just does not work for us.

Fe is our warning system and social defense system it flares up, but usually when that happens we are already in trouble, because we have nothing to fall back on, so either we mimick others around us which is unauthentic and it feels like wiping ones ass with sandpaper, or we get a panic or anxiety attack or we act like awkward clowns. It simply is not us. The only way you can deal with it is in advance you use your Ne that gets feedback from Fe to know exactly where you ought to be and where you definitely do not want to be. When to speak and what to say and when to just fucking shut up.

If you learn this you are Golden. You might even find a place on this stupid planet where you can be yourself and not feel like an anomaly or a natures mistake. Till then have fun lol.

So next time you are waving your Ti around in common society don't expect people to like it or be positive about it.
The worst part is when our Ti is not working we get depressed, and obviously very unhappy and it can spiral out of control.
It takes lot of discipline to be able to swallow your pride, and ego and tuck that Ti in your pants and not act like a fool.
Its also the reason why we often look like complete idiots, autistic or narcissistic people. Its very hard for other social types to look at our Ti and interpret it in a way that is acceptable.

Thanks.

 

[BurnedOut]

Very interested on the leadear stuff, as there are some poeople, higher up. To start.

I believe that INTPs can be excellent leaders. But that can only take place if the INTP in question has really worked his arse off developing some kind of organizing quality and soft skills. Trust me, it is an extremely hard process. I don't know how many books I gulped down and how many social experiments (which ended not well) in the name of psychology to get a solid idea of what people I am going to deal with as a leader.

Then came the time where I headed groups and turns out that I was being quite tyrannical. I wanted 'efficiency' and that emerged in the form of pointing
out logical fallacies. I had to let an ESFJ take over (LOL) because I burned out.

One time, I managed to swing opinions and manipulate the groups into taking a decision the way I wanted but they would not recognize me as leaders.

Another time, I managed to direct the project and was the 'professor' of the group but an INFJ assumed the nominal title despite the fact that I was ratifying majority of the works of everybody.

Another time, I ended up over overburdening an INFP and ISTJ and thought that it was normal. Then I used to crack dark jokes and one day, the ISTJ really snapped at me. Again, I directed the work but received no recognition as a leader.



You see, I am sure many of you relate to what I am saying - almost having it but losing it.

The problem is simple - Lack of social skills.

We may be Sherlock Holmes at figuring people out but just like him, we are incapable of finding our social place in the world. Well, we are not incapable but let's see too indolent and prudent.

Read about Howard Roark of The Fountainhead. That's what an Fe repressed INTP looks like.

 

[onesteptwostep]

INTPs I don't think can be leaders. Leaders need to have very good social skills and aren't hampered by the stress that comes with directing people and making sure everyone is on the right track.

INTPs for example would be a terrible army sergeant. We're good with data, but not things like leading in team sports or leading a military company. We're good academics maybe, and perhaps managers, but that's as far as we can go. Anything to S (sensing), and we'll collapse under the stress.