Wachowski Brothers

[Architect]

What are these guys? I don't know what to make of them, but also don't know much about them other than they are rather reclusive. The Matrix series seems to be something that would have come from the mind of an INTP. What does that mean? It means that not only is there a philosophical and analytic depth to the movies with an architected complexity, the subject matter seems to center around the core of matters INTP's are concerned about.

My immediate thought on their movies is that "that is something I would have done if I was a director/writer", but it also could be a generational thing since we are all approximately the same age. Is one or the other an INTP, or is this an accident?

 

[Cherry Cola]

They needn't be INTP's, in fact I think none of them are. They seem more like SP's who got lucky with the source material they were infatuated with, add their relatively isolated childhood to that and I don't think you need any NT'ness for the logical result to be The Matrix.

They were heavily influenced by japanese animated films; Ghost in The Shell, Akira, and Ninja Scroll for instance. The philosophical elements that they use in their films were already in existence, they just created a happy marriage between the west and the east, owing largely to the western worlds relative ignorance of the latter.

So in short, I think their strenght lies in their ability to synthesize and combine different elements; the philosophical and the analytical being used to produce an aesthetic effect, rather than for their own sake. This is pretty evident when you look at the two matrix sequels, and besides their depth is a bit overrated seeing as they never go beyond their source material. Thus ISFP's.

Granted sure one of them could be an INTP, but definitely not both. They did the typical trendsetting ISFP contemporary take on dated material they had passionately consumed, like Dylan.

 

[Jennywocky]

Well, they are not the "brothers" any more to start with. It's Andy and Lana now. I think Lana is the older of the two.

I haven't studied them in detail because they have been notoriously secretive about their personal lives. They even had clauses in their contracts that excused them from having to all the typical promotional stuff for their movies, despite their popularity at that time.... it only says (along with the large amounts of budget they were offered for their movies) how lucrative they seemed to the studios at the height of the matrix craze.

All that being said, Andy came across as more of an SP, maybe ISFP; Lana actually has more exposure now that she's "out" as of the Cloud Atlas. They ran a carpentry business after graduating from separate colleges, until they started making movies. (Their first movie, Bound, was a mafia movie with lesbian activity between two of the mains, although it wasn't the focus of the movie; it was made mainly to prove they "had the chops" to make the Matrix.) Lana seems more likely to be the NT, if one of them is. But again, they both value their privacy and have greatly controlled the amount of interaction they've done with the media until recently; they know once they are public celebrities, they won't get any privacy.

EDIT: Cherry -- haha. Didn't read your post until now.

I do agree that they kind of remain in the "conceptual" area -- broad concepts -- in their Matrix work. I think the first movie was very well thought out and truly married the West and Eastern ideas into a tangible plot in a stylish way. I've commented on Reloaded before (which some people like and some do not), it being a different sort from the original Matrix and focused on cause/effect and Determinism. Are we free or are we not free? If anything, it alluded to the truth that within the context of our worlds we seem free and act as if we were, while from the outside we still pretty much seem to be rats in the cage and are the product of forces outside of ourselves (and the only possible key is knowing the "why" of how we do things -- but even then...?) Anyway, obviously they have an interest in the ideas, because few movies deal with the philosophical end of things SO directly, but they still remain pretty much broad concepts.

The third movie... eh. It doesn't surprise me considering Lana was going through so much crap at the time in her personal life, apparently. The editing was kind of walked through and had really cliche comic-book segues, and there was too much focus on blockbuster battles and mock heroism/sentimentalism. I wouldn't be surprised if Andy is an ISFP who carried the load of the duties for this with Lana out of commission at the time (from the identity issues + the divorce). I think Matrix 3 comes off as a more conventional "fanboy" sort of movie ("this would be cool, that would be cool, etc.") hewn from someone's rough notes; the other two are a bit more heady.

I'm not sure what exactly you'd think an INTP philosophical movie would look like, aside from a commercial disaster. If you want something more intricately in the details, I bet you'd do better with a philosophical movie written/directed by INJs.

 

[Puffy]

The first Matrix was an ok movie, but I've never thought of that series as being overly INTPish. It's an action movie with some thoughtful themes. But like Cherry pointed out with Akira and Ghost in the Shell, it also has similarities to Dark City that came out a year before it. It's more like they synthesised these existing themes and made it work in a Hollywood structure.

They worked on V for Vendetta and Cloud Atlas too right? I can see the similarities - taking some heady themes but nonetheless getting it to work for popular cinema.

It wouldn't surprise me if Lana was an N type, unsure about INTP. It's possible, but I'd bare in mind that NFs can be just as reclusive and cerebral.

 

[Jennywocky]

They worked on V for Vendetta and Cloud Atlas too right? I can see the similarities - taking some heady themes but nonetheless getting it to work for popular cinema.

Yeah, I think what I hated most about V for Vendetta was how it was simplified / fit to a popular cinema mold and lost the things in general that made it stand out as a graphic novel. Alan Moore's typically been great with complexity of idea, exploring things in more unique and detailed fashion in his writing; the movie kind of converted much of it to popular trope (especially those the Wachowski's specialize in, including flashy fight scenes) and typical teenage "rebellion against the system" in a more westernized way vs out from under the shadow of true facism.

They didn't direct the movie, but they did write the screenplay.

 

[Architect]

I agree about the simplified ideas streamlined for cinema, but I don't know if that isn't by necessity. The main reason I'm not much of a cinema fan is because it is so simplified, the entire genre seems to necessarily take ideas and file them down to nothing, and then add in cliche. I'm not sure why this is other than it's necessary for wide appeal. And we can't fault them for wanting to make popular movies, if I was a director I'd do the same thing.

The obsession with comic books also makes me think SP, as that seems to largely be their province (SJ's like them too). So yes I'll agree that tentatively they're SP types, that hooked into larger metaphysical themes due to an inferior pull and the heavy comic book influence, along with all the Tolkien they read. My guess is that if either one was an INTP they might be less likely to actually produce a film, preferring instead to think on their own on these issues.

 

[Jennywocky]

As a generalization, I don't think INTPs typically go into the movie directing business, if simply out of the J/P dichotomy (there are SO many small, seemingly arbitrary decisions to make and directives to give to actually create a movie) as well as having to work so much in external reality as a medium vs a more abstract and preferred medium like writing. And I suppose there is the I/E factor too -- SO many people are involved in movies nowadays, so if those uncomfortable with social skills and constant trivial interactions might shy away.

A writer gets to work alone and doesn't have to worry about any real life production values. You just write the book.

A director is about as external as you can get. The real fun is all the toys you get to play with, and perhaps if you're a group/team person, well, everyone on the team gets to show their stuff.

 

[Cherry Cola]

The obsession with comic books also makes me think SP, as that seems to largely be their province (SJ's like them too). So yes I'll agree that tentatively they're SP types, that hooked into larger metaphysical themes due to an inferior pull and the heavy comic book influence, along with all the Tolkien they read.

No, the larger metaphysical themes are from the Japanese anime they've been watching, hardly Tolkien, although to a lesser degree comic books. Have you seen Ghost in The Shell? It's all there, including the purely aesthetic aspects.
If you meant to lump the anime with the comic books you're making a mistake as well, the two are quite distinct.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ed0_QuZJjS4

I wonder if the Wachowski's also read authors like Phillip K Dick who inspired the abovementioned anime heavily? Seems likely.

 

[Architect]

No, the larger metaphysical themes are from the Japanese anime they've been watching, hardly Tolkien, although to a lesser degree comic books. Have you seen Ghost in The Shell? It's all there, including the purely aesthetic aspects.
If you meant to lump the anime with the comic books you're making a mistake as well, the two are quite distinct.

Thanks for that, interesting. I know nothing about comic books and anime having never been interested. I even tried once in HS as some friends (SP & SJ) were seriously into comic books at least. I tried reading the Watchman stuff when it came out (borrowed their copy) but couldn't get into it. That explains a lot.

I also got a copy of "The Art of the Matrix" at bargain price for curiosity. Basically it's exactly the movie. They got some artists to make this graphic novel as a pitch to the investors, and it worked. The movie is an almost exact replay of it, down to precise images, like Trinity shooting the Agent with the helicopter in the background. The same exact image, with the splayed legs and thrown out arm.

As a generalization, I don't think INTPs typically go into the movie directing business, if simply out of the J/P dichotomy (there are SO many small, seemingly arbitrary decisions to make and directives to give to actually create a movie) as well as having to work so much in external reality as a medium vs a more abstract and preferred medium like writing. And I suppose there is the I/E factor too -- SO many people are involved in movies nowadays, so if those uncomfortable with social skills and constant trivial interactions might shy away.

Agreed. I had a similiar job once as my namesake - a Architect for a monster team developing a huge software system. It was hugely draining and I wasn't very good at it. I had the vision, but it was about people management (upwards and downwards) which killed me. Directing is similar, you have a vision and you inspire and push people around to get it, with huge attention to detail. You can see this in the "making of" scenes from The Matrix.

ISTP's often seem to get into directing. Woody Allen is surely an ISTP (another story there), but one possible INTP director is Wes Anderson. We're not sure yet but keep thinking that he may be, but we need more data.

 

[Architect]

They ran a carpentry business after graduating from separate colleges, until they started making movies.

I'm not sure what exactly you'd think an INTP philosophical movie would look like, aside from a commercial disaster. If you want something more intricately in the details, I bet you'd do better with a philosophical movie written/directed by INJs.

Carpentry is perhaps a clue. INTPs generally hate it while ISFPs frequently end up there (I worked in a commercial shop briefly pre college doing office work)

I don't have specific ideas about an INTP written movie, but am sometimes surprised at how well the first Matrix seems to speak to me.

 

[Jennywocky]

Carpentry is perhaps a clue. INTPs generally hate it while ISFPs frequently end up there (I worked in a commercial shop briefly pre college doing office work)

I spent two days working at an orchard during summers off from college and then quit because I hated it -- such monotony in the physical labor. The boss was shocked, because I was the best box stapler he had. I got through one day of it by making a game of it ... How fast could I staple boxes and how many could I make? That occupied my boredom for one afternoon.

But I couldn't do that for a lifetime, without wanting to die.

Interestingly, my ISFP friend went to working in a factory as a carpenter. He only lasted a few days before quitting. He was under the tutelage of a guy whose only job was install drawers into dressers. The old man was the master of his domain and knew that drawer backwards and forwards and had done it for 40 years and took pride in his craftsmanship of that drawer. My friend hated the thought of that and quit, to eventually become an auto mechanic where at least there's some variety in what he does every day, plus he gets to test drive cars.

I don't have specific ideas about an INTP written movie, but am sometimes surprised at how well the first Matrix seems to speak to me.

That's kind of why I'm thinking at least one of them has a good sense of philosophical concerns and how to fit things together coherently. They did slave on that script for two years, I think. And it's even appreciated in Christian circles by people who would consider themselves more conservative -- it seems to capture and combine the essential of both Christian and Eastern faith philosophies, to an impressive degree.

That doesn't happen by chance, someone knew what they were doing.

 

[Ex-User (8886)]

"I came to the conclusion that teachers should be a lot smarter than me, to justify a loan that dragged to learn. In the meantime, some of them have not read half of the books that I've read "
Larry

This fit to INTP.

Personally, I think they are INTX or INFX. P is more likely than J.

 

[Turniphead]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crHHycz7T_c