Vegetarianism and INTP

[snafupants]

I wonder if the idea of eating meat and not suffering some debilitating illness later in life or skirting some inimical disease after chowing down on ground beef is irritating to vegetarians? There seems to be this sentiment throughout the thread, in parts more obvious than others, that promises ungood outcomes from eating meat, with the caveat that your diet is your choice, of course. For vegetarians who refrain from pontificating, I hear a lot of opinion bordering on nagging advice. Some topics are maybe inherently hot button issues, like you can't claim a pro-choice position without someone upending the table.

 

[demian]

i've limited my intake of animal products for a few months now, and just waiting for some revelation to push me towards the next step.

reasons considering:

1. to stop supporting what i consider exploitative and unnecessary .
2. detox and stop intaking unnatural amounts of hormones (used to expedite the growth process of farmed animals).
3. to strengthen my will, release an unnecessary desire.

 

[snafupants]

i've limited my intake of animal products for a few months now, and just waiting for some revelation to push me towards the next step.

reasons considering:

1. to stop supporting what i consider exploitative and unnecessary .
2. detox and stop intaking unnatural amounts of hormones (used to expedite the growth process of farmed animals).
3. to strengthen my will, release an unnecessary desire.

Buying from local farms through co-ops would certainly obviate the first two concerns. The third consideration, especially the latter half, seemed too vague and personal to deal with effectively and objectively. I wonder what your main protein source is; hopefully it is relatively low in phytic acid and tannins, oxalates and lectins and other toxins commonly found in inferior proteins. Good luck!

 

[demian]

local farms and co-ops definitely, which is one reason why i am on the fence since ethically from this point of view it would be fine. as for protein...i'm not an expert on nutrition, i've just been trying to get protein from breads, or drinks, or snacks, etc. thanks for the heads up. i'll have to look into the "phytic acid and tannins, oxalates and..."

p.s. moms: entp; pops: intp

 

[snafupants]

local farms and co-ops definitely, which is one reason why i am on the fence since ethically from this point of view it would be fine. as for protein...i'm not an expert on nutrition, i've just been trying to get protein from breads, or drinks, or snacks, etc. thanks for the heads up. i'll have to look into the "phytic acid and tannins, oxalates and..."

p.s. moms: entp; pops: intp

Further research is definitely a good idea. When I turned to vegetarianism years ago, I certainly had less knowledge than I do today; basically, I was ill-informed on the effects that nutrition had on health. I felt all proteins were essentially equal, I was unaware of the overriding toxicity of whole grains, I underestimated the importance of micronutrients and phytonutrients and herbs and fat-soluble vitamins, I chugged pasteurized milk not understanding its nutritional and probiotic bankruptcy and this sort of thing. We should look to indigenous cultures for guidance. Folks in Western society tend to be sort of ashen-complexioned and half-vibrant compared to their "third-world" counterparts, and I feel part of this difference lies in dietary factors.

 

[BigApplePi]

No this information is decades out of date, goes back to the old 'Diet For a Small Planet' thinking, the protean combining nonsense. We know a few things now, one, you don't need a complete set of amino acids in one meal to get what you need, the body will happily combine and do without on it's own. Second, protean isn't that important, actually in excess of around 10% of your calories it has a definite deleterious effect on health and longevity. The data shows that 7% is probably best. This should be obvious, your body burns glucose (sugar) which is converted from complex carbohydrates, very little protean is needed, especially in an adult.

@Architect. Very interesting. I first encountered the protein (notice my spelling) situation with 'Diet For a Small Planet'. I wonder if you have a source that only seven percent protein is needed? I would like to know more as at times I lift weights. Weight lifters are hot on getting more protein and assume a breakdown.

 

[WanderMind]

Im a meat minimalist. I eat fish, eggs and milk products. Red meat only very rare.
All this mostly for ecological reasons and secondly for ethical reasons. Ofcourse there is a good reason to minimize meat eating because of the higher cancer possibility.

All but b-12 vitamin can be get from other food but meat.
Humans are omnivores but it doesn't mean that 10k years ago people ate 200gram beef everyday. Easiest food was gathered from trees and bushes not from galloping herds. except in tundra.

 

[snafupants]

Im a meat minimalist. I eat fish, eggs and milk products. Red meat only very rare.
All this mostly for ecological reasons and secondly for ethical reasons. Ofcourse there is a good reason to minimize meat eating because of the higher cancer possibility.

All but b-12 vitamin can be get from other food but meat.
Humans are omnivores but it doesn't mean that 10k years ago people ate 200gram beef everyday. Easiest food was gathered from trees and bushes not from galloping herds. except in tundra.

That, in itself, is a terrible reason to forgo eating meat, considering all possible cancer exposures, level of risk and the crapshoot that is genes and apoptosis.

Good luck with that. You can glean inferior proteins from plants and seafood but then you have to worry about contaminants and whether that's a balanced protein and so on.

That's actually fairly well-reasoned but, by the same token, our past does not dictate the diet you profess and seemingly suggest to others as a paragon of healthy eating.

Edit: Hey, I sort of have the Lakers' colors going on here: go Kobe!

 

[WanderMind]

That, in itself, is a terrible reason to forgo eating meat, considering all possible cancer exposures, level of risk and the crapshoot that is genes and apoptosis.

Good luck with that. You can glean inferior proteins from plants and seafood but then you have to worry about contaminants and whether that's a balanced protein and so on.

That's actually fairly well-reasoned but, by the same token, our past does not dictate the diet you profess and seemingly suggest to others as a paragon of healthy eating.

Edit: Hey, I sort of have the Lakers' colors going on here: go Kobe!

Im not sure what you mean snafupants. Whether you're being sarcastic or loading facts there... Im here to learn nyances of debating in english. So you're giving me a lesson here

I have no idea about the possibility to get cancer out of meat eating, its just another excuse for me to minimize the meat-eating.

If some competing athletes can survive with vegetaristic diet why couldn't any normal person be able to do it too.

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

That's actually fairly well-reasoned but, by the same token, our past does not dictate the diet you profess and seemingly suggest to others as a paragon of healthy eating.

But the past does dictate our digestive physiology and the hodgepodge amalgamation of microbiota that inhabit it (which can not only handle phytotoxins/tannins/lecthins/etc but chemically transform them into useful compounds).

The cecum and appendix still serve a purpose, it's just that in most cases they aren't innoculated properly.

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

Edit: Hey, I sort of have the Lakers' colors going on here: go Kobe!

More like someone puked up a christmas tree...

 

[snafupants]

More like someone puked up a christmas tree...

True, there is something rather nauseating about the sea-sick lime green hue. When you sink and wiggle your feet into the batter's box and begin selecting colors though, you realize how few colors are aesthetically acceptable, readily visible and austere enough to make the cut. The palette looks wide, but closer inspection proves this wrong.

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

True, there is something rather nauseating about the sea-sick lime green hue. When you sink and wiggle your feet into the batter's box and begin selecting colors though, you realize how few colors are aesthetically acceptable, readily visible and austere enough to make the cut. The palette looks wide, but closer inspection proves this wrong.

Agreed. You could totally do it along a gradient, but even then the background just fucks it up.

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

I have no idea about the possibility to get cancer out of meat eating, its just another excuse for me to minimize the meat-eating.

It's not about an increased risk of cancer from eating meat, but an increased risk of cancer associated with processed/mass produced meat and a reduced risk associated with soluble fiber and specific vitamins and other compounds found in plants. Colon cancer is a prime example of all of the above here.

 

[Philosophyking87]

I'm not currently a vegetarian, but I'm slowly working my way there.
It's only a matter of time. Bad habits die hard.

 

[snafupants]

It's not about an increased risk of cancer from eating meat, but an increased risk of cancer associated with processed/mass produced meat and a reduced risk associated with soluble fiber and specific vitamins and other compounds found in plants. Colon cancer is a prime example of all of the above here.

That's the sort of nuanced comment I like to fucking see. None of this throw-the-baby-out-with-the-bathwater weaksauce.

 

[Philosophyking87]

I am apparently INTP and also vegetarian. Judging from the psychological profiles, it seems like it appeals to us to have a set of values to live our lives by rigidly, and vegetarianism makes a lot of decisions for you.

I think this is very spot-on.

Although, I would change the word "values" to the phrase "rational guidelines/principles," and the word "rigidly" to the word "generally." The word "values" seems to denote some sort of existential attachment, while the word "rigidly" seems to indicate a lack of flexibility, which is usually more the case with INTJs than INTPs.

Here's a revision of your statement that I think rings extremely true:

"It appeals to us to have a set of rational guidelines/principles by which to generally live our lives."

So I would say a proper means of eating would appeal to both INTJs and INTPs for these reasons, although INTJs definitely take these "rules" much more seriously than an INTP would, on the whole. An INTP is likely inclined to cheat every now and then on a whim. After all, it's just a guideline.

 

[Amagi82]

I could never be a vegetarian. My body craves meat, and vegetables/fruit alone will leave me perpetually feeling starved; the only thing my body recognizes as food at that point is meeeaaaaat.

That said, I am a health food nut. I eat mostly organic foods, avoid basically all fast food, and avoid processed/deep fried foods. I don't think vegetarianism is truly any healthier than a proper omnivorous diet- I think the studies claiming vegetarians are healthier are rooted in vegetarians naturally avoiding some of the really bad stuff, like fast food.

Everyone's body reacts differently to food. Some people do just fine without meat, and some people all but require it to function. It's arrogant for vegetarians to claim anyone can be a vegetarian, just as it's stupid for meat-lovers to whine about having to eat vegetables. Personally, I avoid swine- pig meat, especially bacon, is gross to me. It gives me gas and makes me feel all greasy.

You can have my steak when you pry it from my cold, dead fingers.


Oh, and people trying to claim moral superiority for not eating meat are idiotic hypocrites. The entire cycle of life depends on one life form consuming another. You survive through killing living things, be they plant, animal, fungus, or whatever. Plants are no less valuable than animals- they're all an integral part of the ecosystem, and should be used respectfully and responsibly.

 

[snafupants]

I could never be a vegetarian. My body craves meat, and vegetables/fruit alone will leave me perpetually feeling starved; the only thing my body recognizes as food at that point is meeeaaaaat.

That said, I am a health food nut. I eat mostly organic foods, avoid basically all fast food, and avoid processed/deep fried foods. I don't think vegetarianism is truly any healthier than a proper omnivorous diet- I think the studies claiming vegetarians are healthier are rooted in vegetarians naturally avoiding some of the really bad stuff, like fast food.

Everyone's body reacts differently to food. Some people do just fine without meat, and some people all but require it to function. It's arrogant for vegetarians to claim anyone can be a vegetarian, just as it's stupid for meat-lovers to whine about having to eat vegetables. Personally, I avoid swine- pig meat, especially bacon, is gross to me. It gives me gas and makes me feel all greasy.

You can have my steak when you pry it from my cold, dead fingers.


Oh, and people trying to claim moral superiority for not eating meat are idiotic hypocrites. The entire cycle of life depends on one life form consuming another. You survive through killing living things, be they plant, animal, fungus, or whatever. Plants are no less valuable than animals- they're all an integral part of the ecosystem, and should be used respectfully and responsibly.

The Charlton Heston of meat!

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

That's the sort of nuanced comment I like to fucking see. None of this throw-the-baby-out-with-the-bathwater weaksauce.

What's the point of the cat?

 

[Philosophyking87]

I don't want to derail the thread, but snafupants - wtf? You're on the forum ALL DAY! lol

 

[masterpeez]

I don't care about animals. I care about fried chicken. ?

 

[snafupants]

I don't want to derail the thread, but snafupants - wtf? You're on the forum ALL DAY! lol

Good call. I mainly work from a computer, leaving my window open for hours on end, so I often stop by and leave my mark.

The amount of time I spend on forum activities compared to outside research and writing is paltry.

This thread would be difficult to derail further though; the thread seems to have the bottomless quality of regeneration.

Any more pressing questions? I'm flattered to have someone attempt to chart my activities throughout the day, by the way.

 

[snafupants]

What's the point of the cat?

That question.

 

[Philosophyking87]

I see. I guess looks can be deceiving.
And yes, can't really derail a derailed thread.
lol @ "pressing questions."

 

[snafupants]

I see. I guess looks can be deceiving.
And yes, can't really derail a derailed thread.
lol @ "pressing questions."

I knew you would appreciate that.

 

[Kairoh]

Intestinal bleeding? Writhing on the floor? This seems somewhat hyperbolic when discussing the consumption of a Happy Meal. Just my impression.

Congratulations on surviving that harrowing ordeal though. That sounded like Christ's scourge at the pillar or something.

Christ? The guy from South Park?

And yeah, I shat blood for a couple days after. (Enjoy that image, savor it.) The doctor said it was either typhoid or dysentery, but that's stupid because I already had typhoid like a month earlier.

In retro-retro-spect, this probably had more to do with it being meat in west Africa rather than meat in general.

 

[BigApplePi]

I knew you would appreciate that.

Let's make a deal. PhilosopherKing87 you can watch what snafupants is eating, I will watch what you watch and either of you can ignore any appetites I should display. Makes sense? If you feel this is too much work, we can take eight hour shifts.

 

[Philosophyking87]

lol