Using psychological Jujutsu to defeat the SJ typology

[DrGregoryHouse]

"Jujutsu...represents manipulating the opponent's force against himself rather than confronting it with one's own force.[/B][1]...These techniques were developed around the principle of using an attacker's energy against him, rather than directly opposing it."

-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jujutsu

I'd like to explorer the concept of using the SJs' own psychology against them.

I view SJs as the #1 enemy of attaining an ever higher form of civilization for everyone including themselves.

When SJ's get too much power in any given society they don't improve on things nor innovate nor encourage either. Instead they imitate and eventually everything they accomplish ends up bastardizing itself in a downward spiral.

If they are maintaining roads, putting bricks and mortar together in order to maintain roofs over the heads of the Ns, food production for supply to cities, keeping the prisons well run then perhaps they are useful).

How to keep the SJ where they belong in the lives of NTs (as far removed from influence as possible)?

In another thread, Helvete had this to say:

The counter is to play really really dumb and nice. They'll just like you and feel sorry enough to just do the stuff for you (the tedious things to get you on your way to doing anything). They'll lose telling you all that crap as hopefully they'll think you're too stupid/cannot help yourself. Once that's over you'll be left alone.

IDEAS?

 

[Jennywocky]

IDEAS?

Yeah, can you shrink that pic to 400 pixels wide? Thanks.

 

[DrSketchpad]

"When SJ's get too much power in any given society they don't improve on things nor innovate nor encourage either. Instead they imitate and eventually everything they accomplish ends up bastardizing itself in a downward spiral."

Based on what? A crude expectation of stereotype?

 

[DrGregoryHouse]

Yeah, can you shrink that pic to 400 pixels wide? Thanks.

My apologies. Different image is now linked.

 

[Jennywocky]

I find SJ's are necessary to preserve stability.

Really, that's all that the OP seems to be complaining about -- stability taken to an extreme. All types have negatives associated with extreme forms of the type.

Continuing, in my experiences, some SJs are rigidly stable, others are more flexible. One of my good friends is ESTJ and she's incredibly more flexible than I expected (even if occasionally her Te slaps me across the face), although she was raised by INFJ and INTP parents.

In addition, withdrawing from SJ society is not only implausible (as all society is tied together in terms of cause/effect, economically, politically, whatever else) but counter-productive because if you hand over the reins to rigid SJs and remove other-type influence, then you're going to be now be dominated by an unavoidable system that you like even less, unless of course you actually do live in a cabin in the woods and are entirely self-sufficient. We all have roles to play; no one is entirely independent.

(Like, seriously? We're posting on an Internet forum paid for and maintained by others, using an Internet developed and maintained by others, using language developed culturally, etc, yada yada ? Everything about us -- where we get our food, our water, our medicine, clean air, technology, etc. -- has been developed or produced by others... and all of them to some degree by those horrible no-good rotten SJs. Oh dear.)

I guess the goal is to avoid being locked into systems where you have no say and no influence whatsoever, where you find your behavior and choices severely restrained, and where your gifts are dismissed and looked down upon. Search out commitments to work and people where you have more flexibility, regardless of the dominant type. Realize you are part of a system and have benefitted from the stability and efforts and ingenuity of others, of various personalities; be grateful; give something back; but try to maintain some level of flex if you want to be happy. I do find I am most miserable in situations that I feel locked into without any flexibility whatsoever.

 

[DrGregoryHouse]

I find SJ's are necessary to preserve stability.

Really, that's all that the OP seems to be complaining about -- stability taken to an extreme. All types have negatives associated with extreme forms of the type.

Continuing, in my experiences, some SJs are rigidly stable, others are more flexible. One of my good friends is ESTJ and she's incredibly more flexible than I expected (even if occasionally her Te slaps me across the face), although she was raised by INFJ and INTP parents.

In addition, withdrawing from SJ society is not only implausible (as all society is tied together in terms of cause/effect, economically, politically, whatever else) but counter-productive because if you hand over the reins to rigid SJs and remove other-type influence, then you're going to be now be dominated by an unavoidable system that you like even less, unless of course you actually do live in a cabin in the woods and are entirely self-sufficient. We all have roles to play; no one is entirely independent.

(Like, seriously? We're posting on an Internet forum paid for and maintained by others, using an Internet developed and maintained by others, using language developed culturally, etc, yada yada ? Everything about us -- where we get our food, our water, our medicine, clean air, technology, etc. -- has been developed or produced by others... and all of them to some degree by those horrible no-good rotten SJs. Oh dear.)

I guess the goal is to avoid being locked into systems where you have no say and no influence whatsoever, where you find your behavior and choices severely restrained, and where your gifts are dismissed and looked down upon. Search out commitments to work and people where you have more flexibility, regardless of the dominant type. Realize you are part of a system and have benefitted from the stability and efforts and ingenuity of others, of various personalities; be grateful; give something back; but try to maintain some level of flex if you want to be happy. I do find I am most miserable in situations that I feel locked into without any flexibility whatsoever.

Excellent points. Agreed.

What if an INTP finds himself/ herself in a metaphorical "hand to hand combat" situation with an individual ISTJ at home/ work?

How to implement psychological jujutsu to throw them off balance and get them to "submit"/ relent/ back off/ chill out/ accept the INTP to whatever extent they can/ leave the INTP alone in peace?

To give a concrete example, what if the INTP is walking down the street minding his own business and is suddenly confronted by an ISTJ cop who is looking for trouble?

 

[DrGregoryHouse]

And/or what if an INTP simply wants to employ a bunch of ISTJs to complete all the mindless, repetitive tasks he/ she finds terrifyingly unfulfilling and would otherwise procrastinate?

 

[DrSketchpad]

"Really, that's all that the OP seems to be complaining about -- stability taken to an extreme. All types have negatives associated with extreme forms of the type."

Agreed.

"Continuing, in my experiences, some SJs are rigidly stable, others are more flexible."

Agreed. I'm trying to break up a viewpoint that's not nearly as conducive to construction and if nothing else, precision, as the other Dr would lead himself to believe.

" Realize you are part of a system and have benefitted from the stability and efforts and ingenuity of others, of various personalities; be grateful; give something back; but try to maintain some level of flex if you want to be happy. I do find I am most miserable in situations that I feel locked into without any flexibility whatsoever."

Agreed*3

PS: (any who might read this) My "text-tone" may come off as more offensive/defensive, despite my efforts to be more neutral/constructive. So, when/if possible, keep in mind to try to read my posts as "neutrally" as you can.

 

[Jennywocky]

What if an INTP finds himself/ herself in a metaphorical "hand to hand combat" situation with an individual ISTJ at home/ work?

uggh. Been there, done that, lol. Srsly. Not pretty.

How to implement psychological jujutsu to throw them off balance and get them to "submit"/ relent/ back off/ chill out/ accept the INTP to whatever extent they can/ leave the INTP alone in peace?

It depends on the specifics of the situation -- and it's going to inadvertently depends on your own specific personality (not just type, but manifestation of type) and what you are willing to live with personally. Some INTPs are more conflict-adverse than others, for example... toss in some e9 influence for an e5 and you see what I mean.

Me personally, I tend to compromise in the sense of figuring out what their issue is and what they "need to hear" to understand that I've properly grasped their concerns. I avoid contentious points that are not crucial to my main concern; I stress our points of overlap (for example, a sense of personal responsibility and producing a quality product); I seek the "meeting ground" first, then once I think we're both at least cordial / respect each other, I'll hit points of disagreement.

It is unfortunate that I think I end up bearing more of the "load" of the communication up front, to accommodate them; however, if it benefits me in the long-term and saves me headache later, then it was energy well-spent.

To give a concrete example, what if the INTP is walking down the street minding his own business and is suddenly confronted by an ISTJ cop who is looking for trouble?

Well, in a position where I don't have authority, I decide my ultimate goal is to "avoid censureship/punishment," so I don't pick fights with the police in a one-on-one. There is no sense in fighting a battle you will not win; instead, you accommodate the authority and then, after it's over, decide whether it's worth going over their head where you have more control (perhaps).

So I comply to what degree doesn't sacrifice my integrity and remain non-combative on other issues and try to end the situation as quickly as possible.

 

[DrSketchpad]

Excellent points. Agreed.

What if an INTP finds himself/ herself in a metaphorical "hand to hand combat" situation with an individual ISTJ at home/ work?

How to implement psychological jujutsu to throw them off balance and get them to "submit"/ relent/ back off/ chill out/ accept the INTP to whatever extent they can/ leave the INTP alone in peace?

To give a concrete example, what if the INTP is walking down the street minding his own business and is suddenly confronted by an ISTJ cop who is looking for trouble?

Walk away and don't let yourself be riled up. That'll show'em!

Call 911.

 

[Hadoblado]

To give a concrete example, what if the INTP is walking down the street minding his own business and is suddenly confronted by an ISTJ cop who is looking for trouble?

Then the problem there is that a state thug is all up in your grill. Their personality type is secondary to their authoritarianism.

Are ISTJs more likely to go looking for trouble?

 

[dark+matters]

Woah! Let's slow down the anxiety train so we can take a look at what's really going on here. This sounds maybe a little more personal and specific than universal because there are tons of variations on SJs. I wouldn't have gotten through algebra, trig and calc I (almost done with calc I anyway) without a bunch of gifted (and nice) ISTJs. I get a heck of a lot of other perks from SJs too. I've gone head to head with a couple (maybe more than a couple), but that is typically way too specific for something like Myers-Briggs. I wouldn't have been able to go to college or do a lot of other things without SJ solidarity. Loyalty, hard work and focus are virtues and not all that easy to find. I appreciate the SJ traits waaaaay more now that I'm heading for 30 than I did when I was younger. But when I have gone head to head with an SJ (and man-oh-man, it got ugly), I look back on the tactics I used and wish that I had simply turned off my feels, focused on my tasks, recorded everything that happened to the best of my memory, researched my rights and obligations, analyzed where I might have gone wrong and where he/she may have gone wrong, and passed the information on to their superiors in the chain if I decided that my ability to perform my tasks would be impaired by their nonsense. *shrug* That is not how I would successfully tangle with most of the other types though. The NFs need to know their hurt feelings are understood, accepted, and and that they are still cuddly and lovable. Saying something understanding usually takes care of that. The SPs need to go exercise the ants in their pants and then they'll come back around like nothing ever happened (if they feel like it). I generally just leave them alone in problem situations because I can out sit them and they seem okay on their own.

Going head to head with anyone isn't fun. But I actually find that the NTs are some of the easiest to tangle with, because if I have tangled with them, it's usually because one or both of us have gone completely and totally insane and one or both of us pretty obviously need to patch/update/reset our software. It's usually just argue it out and get it resolved for good (or know when to leave or know which topics to avoid). I don't think that anyone is totally rational, idealistic, craftsy or approving of social convention, but I do think most NTs are at their best when they are feeling mellow and thinking logically. It's pretty apparent when they aren't in a state to be making sensible judgments/statements most of the time. I usually let them patch it up themselves or play with someone else for a while.

For SJ (or other) relationship help, I would read Games People Play or look into Keirsey's work (I think he wrote something about games that different types play, but I haven't read those books myself).

 

[StevenM]

I've seen a book being marketed once, called "Verbal Judo". I guess from the description, it was an outline of effective ways to deflect violence with communication alone. Said it was used by police authorities and such. Now, I guess there is a whole crazy website about it after searching google.

The website kind of gets on my nerves for some reason.

Anyways, that came to mind, because of the term in the thread title "Psychological Jujitsu".


With the experience of one ISTJ, it always seems like the ISTJ wins the argument (to anyone witnessing). But my beliefs and attitude are hardly swayed by absurd arguments.

Perhaps the aim shouldn't be to defeat the ISTJ, but rather, to be sure you are not defeated.

 

[ma(dy)ma(dx)]

Interesting.

Does it make you feel good about your self when people call you House, House?

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

To give a concrete example, what if the INTP is walking down the street minding his own business and is suddenly confronted by an ISTJ cop who is looking for trouble?

I think there might be a perception issue here. The cop makes a decision before he decides to act under color of authority (which may have its own perception issues): the basic assessment. At some point he encountered some degree of uncertainty about you which caused him to focus in on you. This is subconscious.

But the key to your jujutsu is how different types deal with uncertainty, allowing you to predict their reaction to your very existence/presence. In uncertain moments people rely on heuristics. The wiki article has a good basic index: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heuristic

 

[Oddity]

I view SJs as the #1 enemy of attaining an ever higher form of civilization for everyone including themselves.

When SJ's get too much power in any given society they don't improve on things nor innovate nor encourage either. Instead they imitate and eventually everything they accomplish ends up bastardizing itself in a downward spiral.

Yeah, I've arrived at this conclusion before.

I guess the goal is to avoid being locked into systems where you have no say and no influence whatsoever, where you find your behavior and choices severely restrained, and where your gifts are dismissed and looked down upon.

That's the position I've been in my entire life, with no end in sight...

Trying to avoid the idiots can't possibly make things worse.