Universe Not Expanding

[Grayman]

Instead of space expanding, matter is compressing since every universe exists in a black hole. Since space cannot be compressed and all matter is compressed at the same rate we see space getting bigger as the worlds stay the same size. In reality it is us getting smaller and space staying the same.

I cannot be the first to think this. Anyone have any information on this idea?

 

[Pizzabeak]

Just like intps being socially capable in whatever instances and for however long, nothing new. Probably like one of a few likely hypotheses, with it being like the third or fourth one with most support.
I don't think every universe exists in a black hole. Well, one would say they could but not in a stable form we would be expecting. But maybe eventually. Even if something were going through motions there could be counterintuitive manifestations or outcomes.

Space can be compressed.

Either way, what's the point? Space is expanding so stuff is getting too far away for comfort or stuff is getting smaller and so we'll all die in that manner instead - whatever space is doing it urges action on someone's part, and soon!

 

[Cherry Cola]

But space can be expanded and compressed or something akin to that right? It's relative to matter.

Nice thought though :O

 

[Grayman]

But space can be expanded and compressed or something akin to that right? It's relative to matter.

Nice thought though :O

Air can be compressed and expanded but not emptiness.

 

[Ex-User (9086)]

Pauli exclusion principle is violated here. If the matter was being compressed to such an extent, we would soon have black holes within black holes.

The schwarzschild radius for earth is about 9 mm, so after the matter on earth was compressed below that, it would turn into a black hole, but the same would happen for the entire solar system at that point.

Another thing about space being a constant size doesn't agree with your assumption that we are inside a black hole.

If that was the case, why do the black holes form, if not by the compression of space? Black holes are anomalies of relativity which are described as turning the geometry of space to a conical shape. As opposed to a normal gravitational sphere of most round objects.

Black holes somehow stop collapsing and exert the same gravitational influence, which wouldn't be the case if the matter inside was exponentially being compressed.
So we have to assume exponential compression as the rate of expansion of the universe is exponential as well.

There would be a center of gravity in your universe, which isn't proven to exist. As there would be a place with the most matter inside a black hole and following that, the contraction of the universe wouldn't be equal to the expansion which is the same for every point in the universe regardless of existing physical conditions.

Also your idea assumes that there is no theoretical limit to how much anything can be compressed physically, without compressing the space, so there is no planck lenght or any other lenght which is a minimal magnitude in your universe.

In the end the whole idea rests on what we don't know about the black holes and about the nuclear and below physics.

 

[Cognisant]

The fact that the universe is expanding suggests we're gaining information from somewhere.
(matter = energy = information)

Which I suppose makes sense if the universe is infinite as actual infinity isn't just a number that's too big to write down or calculate, it's an amount that's increasing at an infinite rate while the rate itself is increasing at an infinite rate (I think it stops there).

This influx of information seems to be occurring everywhere simultaneously which you'd think would cause the universe to "white out" except this influx of information is increasing the size of the universe and I suppose the universe as we know it (comprised of matter and energy) is just an emergent property of this infinitely infinite expanse of empty space.

Can't help but wonder why there's more matter than antimatter though

 

[Cognisant]

If we could find some way to stretch space in a given area we could potentially make matter and energy out of nothing, well not really make it so much as in a given area of empty space given enough time (the definition of "enough" being "a lot") something is bound to occur, I suppose.

I don't know~

 

[Pizzabeak]

Expansion doesn't necessarily mean there's new stuff coming from somewhere, it's just stretching out. But new stuff could come from some subsidiary process, possibly. Heavy stuff existing is the same thing as space compression.

 

[idokaiho]

Expansion doesn't necessarily mean there's new stuff coming from somewhere, it's just stretching out.

This.

And if matter was continually being compressed by being in a black hole, why wouldn't it also be getting closer together (relative to a previous stare with less compression) rather than just getting smaller making it appear as if the universe is expanding? It's hard to believe that there would be more force that is concentrated on compressing matter than the force keeping everything together inside a black hole. Not that I know much about black holes...

 

[Ex-User (9086)]

How the universe inside a black hole could work.
Seemingly by what we experience we could be inside the event horizon within a supermassive black hole.

There are many areas of massive black holes that have densities lower than earth's objects, maybe some areas in the middle or toward the edges, depending on the angular momentum could have vacuum-like properties that we experience in space.

In such a massive universal black hole, the universe is expanding, due to its toroid structure, where every edge is connected and attracts matter in every direction, so that the seeming accelerating expansion only means that our part of the observable universe moves towards the denser areas of the black hole.

Or even the possibility of a waterfall, where space is stretched due to the forces acting on it.

I don't know what kind of observations should be made to prove this, but the idea looks very much like another fine-tuned universe model, which is very unlikely.

 

[gilliatt]

Well, this is hard to perceive. Is not everything that exists finite? Including the universe? The universe is everything. So where would the additional matter come from. And 'Space' is not an entity, but a relational concept like 'time'. I, you, are in the universe, not the other way around. The universe cannot be anywhere. There is space between to objects. they occupy different positions. Expanding universe? What could that possibly mean? There is no 'outside the universe.' If that was somehow true there would be a line, a division of something ending and nothing beginning. What nonsense!!! 'Outside, that which is where everything isn't.' That is what it would stand for. The universe is ruled by The Law of Identity. The axiom that existence exists, uncreated, can't be destroyed. No consciousness created it, willed it. It is all the metaphysical given-the nature of nature is outside the power of any volition. And the Law of Causality-identity in action.

 

[RandomGeneratedName]

 

[Fat Bread]

I should really provide a link for this, but it's almost time for bed so I'll just throw it out there for now.

I once read an article about a scientist who suggested that, rather than the universe expanding, matter might be continuously increasing in mass. The idea that the universe is expanding is based on the fact that the deeper we look into space, the redder objects appear to be, which we assume indicates that the further away an object is, the more it's light waves are being stretched out relative to our reference frame, which in turn suggests that the further away an object in space is from earth, the faster it is moving away from us. Supposedly, continuously increasing the mass of all matter across the universe would cause the same red shift effect. I don't understand exactly how this would occur, and I can't recall the explanation, if there even was one. I do remember that the guy who came up with the idea went to great pains to stress that he was not denying that the universe is expanding nor proclaiming his theory as the correct explanation for the red shift. He was only claiming that the math shows it is a possibility and therefore something scientists should at least consider.

 

[quilin111]

I should really provide a link for this, but it's almost time for bed so I'll just throw it out there for now.

I once read an article about a scientist who suggested that, rather than the universe expanding, matter might be continuously increasing in mass. The idea that the universe is expanding is based on the fact that the deeper we look into space, the redder objects appear to be, which we assume indicates that the further away an object is, the more it's light waves are being stretched out relative to our reference frame, which in turn suggests that the further away an object in space is from earth, the faster it is moving away from us. Supposedly, continuously increasing the mass of all matter across the universe would cause the same red shift effect. I don't understand exactly how this would occur, and I can't recall the explanation, if there even was one. I do remember that the guy who came up with the idea went to great pains to stress that he was not denying that the universe is expanding nor proclaiming his theory as the correct explanation for the red shift. He was only claiming that the math shows it is a possibility and therefore something scientists should at least consider.

Interesting idea, I think he said that because the mass of the matter will make the space curved around it, as Einstein general relativity theory suggest. The more mass, the more will the space curved around them. With a more curved space, the harder it is for light to get out, which will make it towards more of a red shift. The simple example is a black hole, some lights close to the core of a black hole can even forever locked out from the rest of the universe inside the event horizon.
But, I think the effect would have been small considering that the light can travel so fast. Unless you want to suggest that the mass increase rate is very high, it would not be a possibility. But then, if the rate of increase is too high, our sun would have burned faster and faster since the past with a high rate of increase, pulling the planets with even greater graivity over time.
So, our civilization might not exist for now because the sun has burns out, or our planet already become 1 with it.

 

[al.otakupunk]

Quick question. I may be oversimplifying; if I am, don't kill me.

I was reading on Wikipedia about Olber's paradox. Applying this concept to this suggestion: if the universe were contracting, wouldn't we see the night sky start becoming brighter, due to the fact that the stars are now coming closer together? Or is the idea more that matter is shrinking along with the universe, in which case, would matter slowly become less dense than it previously was?

 

[Vrecknidj]

if the universe were contracting, wouldn't we see the night sky start becoming brighter, due to the fact that the stars are now coming closer together?

Have you misunderstood the scales of sizes and durations involved here?

 

[redbaron]

The idea that the universe itself is a black hole doesn't necessitate that it's also compressing. There's a decent amount of evidence to suggest that the universe itself is a type of singularity and we don't know enough about black holes to eliminate the possibility.

 

[al.otakupunk]

Have you misunderstood the scales of sizes and durations involved here?

Probably. That's precisely why I asked.

 

[Grayman]

I should really provide a link for this, but it's almost time for bed so I'll just throw it out there for now.

I once read an article about a scientist who suggested that, rather than the universe expanding, matter might be continuously increasing in mass. The idea that the universe is expanding is based on the fact that the deeper we look into space, the redder objects appear to be, which we assume indicates that the further away an object is, the more it's light waves are being stretched out relative to our reference frame, which in turn suggests that the further away an object in space is from earth, the faster it is moving away from us. Supposedly, continuously increasing the mass of all matter across the universe would cause the same red shift effect. I don't understand exactly how this would occur, and I can't recall the explanation, if there even was one. I do remember that the guy who came up with the idea went to great pains to stress that he was not denying that the universe is expanding nor proclaiming his theory as the correct explanation for the red shift. He was only claiming that the math shows it is a possibility and therefore something scientists should at least consider.

http://www.nature.com/news/cosmologist-claims-universe-may-not-be-expanding-1.13379

I think this may be in similar to the article you read.

 

[Stagename]

Didn't read the whole thread, but you are not right. Galaxies are moving away from each other in all directions. If they move further away from each other than the center of each galaxy, then that means that space is expanding, and not the galaxies contracting.

 

[Grayman]

Didn't read the whole thread, but you are not right. Galaxies are moving away from each other in all directions. If they move further away from each other than the center of each galaxy, then that means that space is expanding, and not the galaxies contracting.

The basis for why many scientists believe that galaxies are moving apart is because of the "redshift". Many scientists are exploring alternatives and are trying to come up with an explanation as to why the redshift occurs in chunks instead of being a smooth and increasing growth as you would expect to see in an ever expanding universe.

 

[Reluctantly]

Instead of space expanding, matter is compressing since every universe exists in a black hole. Since space cannot be compressed and all matter is compressed at the same rate we see space getting bigger as the worlds stay the same size. In reality it is us getting smaller and space staying the same.

I cannot be the first to think this. Anyone have any information on this idea?

This is technically the same thing however. The point is that galaxies seem to be moving away from each other. Interesting enough, a galaxy must have a large gravitational field at its center to keep it together. Supposedly the Milky Way has a black hole at its center and presumably every galaxy must. So you are not wrong in your conclusion, but nor does it exactly go against conventional thought.

It's interesting though that a black hole clearly supports our galaxy as some kind of foundation, yet we can't seem to agree on what it is or how it behaves. Stephen Hawking seemed to believe that black holes give off their own mass and eventually disappear because of this, though I think he disregarded this theory as of late and radiation is not necessarily the same thing as mass (another thing physicists can't agree on). I would wager black holes appear to disappear simply because, as you say, the black hole is compressing in on itself (compressing its galaxy around it) and at the same time expanding away from other black holes or galaxies in doing so. Eventually, given enough distance between two black holes or galaxies, they should hit an equilibrium where space no longer expands between them and they do not compress in on themselves. I would imagine it similar to galaxies finding a stable orbit around each other, perhaps.