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Typing Help for Y'all

Reluctantly

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Fe/Ti vs Fi/Te was sort of alright; at least it stuck to seeing them as philosophical differences and kept them conceptual in that regard.

Ne/Si vs Ni/Se, on the other hand, is devoid of philosophical differences and was stereotyped to make Ni sound narrow-minded and ignorant and Si detail oriented. It's not even conceptual.

/2 cents

Some day I'll make a thread about how Jung's ideas get abused by people, particularly MBTI, just to see who actually takes note.
 

snafupants

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Some day I'll make a thread about how Jung's ideas get abused by people, particularly MBTI, just to see who actually takes note.

I'm not sure about that one buddy haha. MBTI is billed as an extrapolation of Jung. :^^:

Ne/Si vs Ni/Se, on the other hand, is devoid of philosophical differences

I happen to disagree. Would you mind elaborating on that particular point?
 

Auburn

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I want to help.
 

snafupants

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I just reread Psychological Types so I could take this thread in a more didactic direction, which might not be as fun or individually helpful. :slashnew:
 

Auburn

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You just re-read it? The whole thing?! c.c

It's a funny phenomenon isn't it.. wanting to teach?
There must be some ego in our motives, paired with some sense of warped responsibility.

Perhaps, though, I can ask you some questions, since you feel in a teaching mood. :) What type would you consider yourself snafupants? Also, how long does it generally take you to get a good sense of what a person's type is?
 

snafupants

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You just re-read it? The whole thing?! c.c

It's a funny phenomenon isn't it.. wanting to teach?
There must be some ego in our motives, paired with some sense of warped responsibility.

@Auburn

That's pretty well-phrased - there's definitely a responsibility bred from a feeling of unity, passion, and compassion. The passion part might be ego. I feel that's less important to analyze if what I do helps people and makes everyone feel good.

Perhaps, though, I can ask you some questions, since you feel in a teaching mood. :) What type would you consider yourself snafupants? Also, how long does it generally take you to get a good sense of what a person's type is?

I'm extremely accurate typing people's enneagram from text. I triangulate the three major triads with the flavor and particular buzzwords in the text to divine their unconscious motivations.

Folks are dazzled at how I can put aside years of indecision in five minutes. I might be better with video vis-a-vis typing in MBTI.

Oh shoot, my type? I'm probably a lead perceiver, an intuitive, and an Fe-Ti user. I score pretty high on Ni, Ne, Ti, and Fe nowadays so it might be a coin flip between ENTP and INFJ haha. I'm basically an ambivert, so letter by letter stuff might not be entirely salubrious.
 

Auburn

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@snafupants -

Letter by letter stuff wasn't what I was going for. :D
Since you did read Jung's book you know he didn't use the four letter code either. Oh, oh, bonus question! Don't you think it'd be easier if jungian typology was taught directly, without having to introduce people first to MBTI only to ween them all off of it later? I mean, why do we even need to look at people through four false dichotomies?

Considering that all types have I and E, N and S, F and T, J and P..
(...in some aspects of their function arrangements, the relative supposed predominance of one element over the other, being often anecdotally contradicted via the various ways/means individuals utilize their mental tools...)

...Then the only true distinct dichotomies between types are Axes pairs.
Thus typing via axes is unambiguous, no? (;

Folks are dazzled at how I can put aside years of indecision in five minutes... Oh shoot, my type? I'm probably a lead perceiver, an intuitive, and an Fe-Ti user.
34546313.jpg

 

snafupants

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@snafupants -

Letter by letter stuff wasn't what I was going for. :D
Since you did read Jung's book you know he didn't use the four letter code either. Oh, oh, bonus question! Don't you think it'd be easier if jungian typology was taught directly, without having to introduce people first to MBTI only to ween them all off of it later? I mean, why do we even need to look at people through four false dichotomies?

Considering that all types have I and E, N and S, F and T, J and P..
(...in some aspects of their function arrangements, the relative supposed predominance of one element over the other, being often anecdotally contradicted via the various ways/means individuals utilize their mental tools...)

...Then the only true distinct dichotomies between types are Axes pairs.
Thus typing via axes is unambiguous, no? (;



34546313.jpg

Haha understanding your unconscious motivations is that powerful! In many ways, seeing the ego-mind entails seeing unconscious motivations, so yeah, very powerful tool. If the matrix is ego-mind's construction, then you can transcend the fabricated infrastructure with the right tools. :D
 

Auburn

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I score pretty high on Ni, Ne, Ti, and Fe nowadays...

Why would that be relevant? o.o

Reading Jung's book, wouldn't it be obvious that questionnaires lack the sophistication required to discern psychic processes? I mean... It took Jung hundreds of pages to explain himself and what he saw. A theory of the mind is no small matter, nor is the identifying on one's mental processes. Thus wouldn't a checklist quiz be grossly unsophisticated/incompetent at isolating any particulars about one's complex psychology?

I'm basically an ambivert...
I'm unsure what this means. o.o

Unless you mean you carry attributes of both, but then we all do. Simply by having more than one function. Again the relative supposed predominance -- or equality - of one process to another is less telling than what processes are actually at play.

Furthermore you identify yourself as an "intuitive" but we are all both intuitive and sensing. What is of relevance is whether it is Ne/Si or Ni/Se. There is no such thing as simply being "intuitive" as that isn't a function on itself.

Or at least, that is what I've discovered. Going back to the relative supposed predominance thing, I've met people with an "S" function above their "N" in terms of hierarchy but who utilize it several magnitudes more keenly than your average "N" dom/aux. How you use your tools determines what outwardly is more apparent, but you have the tools you have, and that's that. Indeed using your tools wisely is important. If you mishandle your light-saber you'll lose a limb.

For what it's worth!.. , I find your flavor of perception to be more on the Ne/Si spectrum from what I've seen of you. :)
 

snafupants

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Why would that be relevant? o.o

Reading Jung's book, wouldn't it be obvious that questionnaires lack the sophistication required to discern psychic processes? I mean... It took Jung hundreds of pages to explain himself and what he saw. A theory of the mind is no small matter, nor is the identifying on one's mental processes. Thus wouldn't a checklist quiz be grossly unsophisticated/incompetent at isolating any particulars about one's complex psychology?

Holy crow! There's much to deconstruct in these latest posts. I should say that, according to Jung's characterizations in Psychological Types, I relate to Ni and Ti very much and Ne and Fi somewhat. In other words, there's a rough correspondence from the tests (quantitatively) to my evaluation and application of Jung's descriptions (qualitatively). Let me see what else you wrote haha. :eek:
 

snafupants

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For what it's worth!.. , I find your flavor of perception to be more on the Ne/Si spectrum from what I've seen of you. :)

That's nice to hear! I'm going with ENTP at the moment. ;)

I jibe with all four functions, so there's no real problem. :king-twitter:
 

snafupants

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Letter by letter stuff wasn't what I was going for. :D
Since you did read Jung's book you know he didn't use the four letter code either. Oh, oh, bonus question! Don't you think it'd be easier if jungian typology was taught directly, without having to introduce people first to MBTI only to ween them all off of it later? I mean, why do we even need to look at people through four false dichotomies?

In short, yeah. I'm probably going to have to make a website on this topic. I would start with Jung's descriptions, then transition to function pairs and individual cognitive functions, and maybe end with the extrapolations from Psychological Types, such as MBTI.
 

Reluctantly

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I'm not sure about that one buddy haha. MBTI is billed as an extrapolation of Jung. :^^:


It doesn't mean it was interpreted correctly. And this is what makes me not want to even talk about this anymore; it misinterprets a lot, but Mbti enthusiasts don't want to admit it and won't discuss it when these issues are brought up.

I happen to disagree. Would you mind elaborating on that particular point?

Because it assumes Ni can't be broad-minded. If I said Ti wasn't broad-minded compared to Te that would just be a stereotype. It doesn't really explain how they differ on a conceptual and philosophical level. Ergo, it's an overgeneralization.

If a person has an Se/Ni axis, then that person’s observations will be more singular and intense (Christopher Hitchens, Oprah Winfrey, General Patton). The person will stress one point of view (Ni), which is indeed frequently the viewpoint that generates the greatest yield here and now (Se). The singularity of observation involved will frequently lend a manifest and immediate quality to the Se/Ni type’s observations, which in turn tends to make them convincing.

On the other hand, if a person has an Si/Ne axis, that person’s observations will be more multifaceted, drawing upon multiple perspectives at once (Ne). The person will also be more careful and meticulous (Si) because there is an unconscious striving to contribute one’s observations to building a system which is valid not just in the here and now, but which is perceived to be true in general: To generate the type of knowledge that could conceivably end up in a future textbook on the subject.

Ni is archetypal anyway. It's not about being convincing, but noticing patterns. Maybe an ESTP would take their Ni and attempt to convince, for example, because they are more about taking action with knowledge, but this is still an assumption.

Conceptually, Ni is both abstract (thinks in forms or archetypes), subjective (in that it internalizes the world around it), and intuitive (finds patterns without logic). It takes in and perceives relationships between different aspects of the world without judgment and without considering the impact on the self. Stressing a point of view is not only a judgment call, but it is not a perceiving quality. Furthermore, Si on the other hand, is concrete (thinks in terms of what is immediately understood), subjective (in that it internalizes the world around it), and sensing (relates the world back to itself). It sees the world through impressions and impacts on the self. Why somebody will say this has to do with being detail-oriented kind of baffles me that they don't seem to care that is a HUGE over-generalization; sure, someone who is easily impressed will tend to remember things well, but it's misleading to suggest they "value" or "aim" at being detail-oriented. Those are two different things.

And what's going to annoy me is that despite how much I've read and thought about this stuff, all you have to do is assert the belief that these things mean something else, even if you aren't taking into account as much as I am or even bothered to read Jung. And all you need is an excuse, like Jung is convoluted and vague, even if I find him incredibly clear, or MBTI is just a descriptive tool, even if what ends up being descriptive ends up being a forer effect or abused as a stereotype to explain away and justify behavior.

And don't get me started on Ne. That's an extroverted function. It intuitively sees connections between things in reality for the purpose of making that connection into a reality. For instance, seeing a bird fly might give an Ne type an idea on how to fly; they then seek out learning how to fly. It is both extroverted to do so and related to the world in an objective manner. It's not about interpretation, but knowing that it's possible and figuring out how to make it happen.
But being multifaceted and drawing up multiple perspectives at once is to have a subjective interest in interpreting the world and not in how to make an idea a reality. :rolleyes: But anyway, someone who focuses on a viewpoint and asserts that, ignoring all other viewpoints, has an agenda. Agendas aren't functions. And suggesting Ni is about an agenda and Ne about being broad-minded is a HUGE stereotype.
 

snafupants

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Of course the article is an overgeneralization (is that tautological? haha). It summarizes an extrapolation, and principally attempts to encapsulate Jung's ideas as fed through MBTI, which itself is clearly a bastardization of Psychological Types. The article's just one, rather brief, lens by which to see function pairs. Take it easy. :smoker:

sure, someone who is easily impressed will tend to remember things well, but it's misleading to suggest they "value" or "aim" at being detail-oriented. Those are two different things.

It's actually immaterial whether they value their proclivities. MBTI is an information processing model of one portion of the psyche. It's a fact, however, that folks tend to repudiate rejected parts of themselves, namely their own shadow functions manifested in others and the world. Someone high in introverted thinking will be prone to rebuffing a neat view of the world brought to you locally by scientism. It might not be unreasonable to compare Ti to continental philosophy and anti-foundationalism and, on the other hand, link Te to analytic philosophy and science.
 

snafupants

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Ni is archetypal anyway. It's not about being convincing, but noticing patterns.

I see you projecting much more than is in the article. Here's what the article actually said about introverted intuition vis-a-vis the word "convincing."

The singularity of observation involved will frequently lend a manifest and immediate quality to the Se/Ni type’s observations, which in turn tends to make them convincing.

It doesn't talk about the user "being convincing," as you posit above.

The article talks about the "singularity of observation" qualia to the Ni vision eventually being construed as convincing to others. There's a big difference.

The article refers to Ni as "observations" and "the viewpoint," which conveys perceiving.

If a person has an Se/Ni axis, then that person’s observations will be more singular and intense (Christopher Hitchens, Oprah Winfrey, General Patton). The person will stress one point of view (Ni), which is indeed frequently the viewpoint that generates the greatest yield here and now (Se). The singularity of observation involved will frequently lend a manifest and immediate quality to the Se/Ni type’s observations, which in turn tends to make them convincing.
 

Reluctantly

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I see you projecting much more than is in the article. Here's what the article actually said about introverted intuition vis-a-vis the word "convincing."



It doesn't talk about the user "being convincing," as you posit above.

The article talks about the "singularity of observation" qualia to the Ni vision eventually being construed as convincing to others. There's a big difference.

The article refers to Ni as "observations" and "viewpoints," which conveys perceiving.

Right, okay. But you're focusing on details and missing the intuitive point. The article uses instances of behavior to explain concepts. But concepts and behavior can be two different things. It's like this:
"
There seems to be two kinds of psychologists - one that learns a concept and let's reality fill it in and one that uses a concept to fill in or explain reality.
"
The article acts as the latter by generalizing, making the concept behind the functions synonymous with particular instances of behavior. It ignores how completely opposite behavior can and could theoretically be observed. But briefly, just because I'm ignorant about one thing today doesn't mean it has anything to do with concepts about my mental abilities (not that I'm saying the article asserts this, but as an example of the kind of fallacious thinking going on here). It's fallacious and abusive to describe people in such a way.

The article is not an impartial player.
 

Reluctantly

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The Ti/Fe Te/Fi is much more impartial

Fe/Ti
If a person has an Fe/Ti axis, then, all other things being equal, he will tend to see all men as being essentially “cut from the same cloth” (Fe), while all observations pertaining to Thinking will unconsciously be seen as universally accessible, regardless of who made them (Ti).

To give an example of what we mean, take the following characterization of the philosopher Immanuel Kant:

“Kant … was much bothered by the common opinion that philosophy is only for the few … because of this opinion’s moral implications.”

That is to say, according to Kant’s natural preference, all men should be capable of accessing and understanding the points of philosophy (even though they plainly are not). And Kant was also “bothered” by the implication that if not all people were able to understand philosophy, then that would imply that not all men were “cut from the same cloth.”

Te/Fi
Thus we have explained the Ti/Fe axis. By contrast, if a person has a Te/Fi axis, that person will be more inclined to view each person as unique, different and very much his own person (Fi). And with this differentiation – all men being decidedly NOT cut from the same cloth – a hierarchization of people is implied (Te).

This is pretty impartial as they constitute two different conceptual ways of orienting themselves with the world. This is type related because it is only about concepts and not behavior.



compared to...

Se/Ni
If a person has an Se/Ni axis, then that person’s observations will be more singular and intense (Christopher Hitchens, Oprah Winfrey, General Patton). The person will stress one point of view (Ni), which is indeed frequently the viewpoint that generates the greatest yield here and now (Se). The singularity of observation involved will frequently lend a manifest and immediate quality to the Se/Ni type’s observations, which in turn tends to make them convincing.

This is a way someone could behave using Se/Ni, but that doesn't mean it has anything to do with Se/Ni specifically and not Ne/Si.



Ne/Si
On the other hand, if a person has an Si/Ne axis, that person’s observations will be more multifaceted, drawing upon multiple perspectives at once (Ne). The person will also be more careful and meticulous (Si) because there is an unconscious striving to contribute one’s observations to building a system which is valid not just in the here and now, but which is perceived to be true in general: To generate the type of knowledge that could conceivably end up in a future textbook on the subject.

Again, multifaceted and drawing upon multiple perspectives is one kind of behavior. It doesn't mean it has anything to do with Ne exclusively. And being careful and meticulous is also one kind of behavior. That doesn't mean it has anything to do with the concept of Si exclusively either.
 

Auburn

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@Reluctantly - curious, i'd have to agree. though i must also say, when explaining an abstract concept becomes so limited to little more than a particular semantic statement(s) -- it is hardly possible to assess that said concept (in the purity that it is being described, refined to have no contradictions) exists as anything more than an idealized perfect dichotomy fabricated and fine-tuned in the abstract world alone.

If proper identification of the psychic processes is so restricted to such rigid semantics -- because semantics is the only means by which it can be communicated -- then it never properly leaves the theoretical realm.

The Abstract (N) & Concrete (S) dichotomy of perception is designed to inform on itself and the two work in tandem. The abstract is refined by concrete information from which to better synthesize data and their implications. Having a reliable concrete axis to cross-check against the psychic axis would produce incredibly more useful results.

But if behavior (and even intent, to some extent) can in most any circumstance be indicative of one or the other function, non-exclusively, then what is there to go off of? And must we interact with an individual for months until we've identified their natural state --- having observed them, by then, in a plethora of moods --- and psychic inclinations? Supposing we have an accurately refined comprehension of the dichotomies in the first place?

How would you propose fixing/improving this issue inherent in Jungian typology?
 

Reluctantly

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@Reluctantly - curious, i'd have to agree. though i must also say, when explaining an abstract concept becomes so limited to little more than a particular semantic statement(s) -- it is hardly possible to assess that said concept (in the purity that it is being described, refined to have no contradictions) exists as anything more than an idealized perfect dichotomy fabricated and fine-tuned in the abstract world alone.

If proper identification of the psychic processes is so restricted to such rigid semantics -- because semantics is the only means by which it can be communicated -- then it never properly leaves the theoretical realm.

The Abstract (N) & Concrete (S) dichotomy of perception is designed to inform on itself and the two work in tandem. The abstract is refined by concrete information from which to better synthesize data and their implications. Having a reliable concrete axis to cross-check against the psychic axis would produce incredibly more useful results.

But if behavior (and even intent, to some extent) can in most any circumstance be indicative of one or the other function, non-exclusively, then what is there to go off of? And must we interact with an individual for months until we've identified their natural state --- having observed them, by then, in a plethora of moods --- and psychic inclinations? Supposing we have an accurately refined comprehension of the dichotomies in the first place?

I'm not really sure what you mean, but

One could still talk about behavior as an instance or effect of mental orientations, as long as mental orientations aren't confused for behaviors. The idea would be to determine the mental orientation separate from the behavior. I suppose this approach treats the functions as archetypes and would mean people don't necessarily have absolute "types", but instead modes of thinking that people can invest in and apply. I don't have an opinion on nature vs nurture because it can be different for each person, since we are all different in ways and yet similar in other ways.

How would you propose fixing/improving this issue inherent in Jungian typology?

To me the problem is equivalent to justifying that a study of philosophy will provide someone a benefit in understanding the world, even though it provides no clear answers about the world.
I would argue then that by looking at mental orientations, you end up with ways to understand cognition, which like philosophy then provides the ability to come up with your own answers about yourself and the world. I think this is a vastly more intelligent approach to provide someone the ability to forge their own answers, rather than being handed an answer that they aren't capable of understanding fully.

So how do you fix it? I'm not sure you can; people seem to come to psychology because they want answers and can't provide their own. And most people seem okay with not being able to fully understand their answers. I suppose if you could convince people that it's better to provide them the ability to create their own answers than being given one they won't fully comprehend, maybe that would work?
 

snafupants

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@Reluctantly - curious, i'd have to agree. though i must also say, when explaining an abstract concept becomes so limited to little more than a particular semantic statement(s) -- it is hardly possible to assess that said concept (in the purity that it is being described, refined to have no contradictions) exists as anything more than an idealized perfect dichotomy fabricated and fine-tuned in the abstract world alone.

If proper identification of the psychic processes is so restricted to such rigid semantics -- because semantics is the only means by which it can be communicated -- then it never properly leaves the theoretical realm.

The Abstract (N) & Concrete (S) dichotomy of perception is designed to inform on itself and the two work in tandem. The abstract is refined by concrete information from which to better synthesize data and their implications. Having a reliable concrete axis to cross-check against the psychic axis would produce incredibly more useful results.

But if behavior (and even intent, to some extent) can in most any circumstance be indicative of one or the other function, non-exclusively, then what is there to go off of? And must we interact with an individual for months until we've identified their natural state --- having observed them, by then, in a plethora of moods --- and psychic inclinations? Supposing we have an accurately refined comprehension of the dichotomies in the first place?

How would you propose fixing/improving this issue inherent in Jungian typology?

@Auburn

An intriguing post, to be sure. The first part reminded me of arguments forwarded in neopragmatism or nominalism. I agree, though, that soldering sensing to intuition would typically possess a more "real" representation of reality. It's the best from nominalism (sensing) and philosophical realism (intuition), which maybe ideally weds and births conceptualism (sensing and intuition). To reroute this illustration to MBTI, without Se (nominalism) and Ni (realism) working in tandem (Ni/Se function pair), you can't really have conceptualism and true understanding that reality is neither fully external nor internal. Then again, these are averages and Ni could get lucky. ;)
 

Lot

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Maybe this could be a companion piece to my function pairs thread haha but hopefully this article can help solidify or even identify your MBTI type. It's a different look anyway. Peace out. :smoker:

http://www.celebritytypes.com/blog/2012/12/guide-to-jungian-function-axes/


Pretty insightful article. It mimics the observations I've made with my ENTJ room mate compared to myself. I'll miss living with that prejudiced SOB. Although with him it's less all people as different, and more all people fit in their boxes, but he has a lot of boxes for people to fit in. So people are cut from different cloths, but there aren't an indefinite amount of cloths; if that makes any sense:confused:.
 

snafupants

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Pretty insightful article. It mimics the observations I've made with my ENTJ room mate compared to myself. I'll miss living with that prejudiced SOB. Although with him it's less all people as different, and more all people fit in their boxes, but he has a lot of boxes for people to fit in. So people are cut from different cloths, but there aren't an indefinite amount of cloths; if that makes any sense:confused:.

Maybe a horizontal taxonomy instead of, or more than, a vertical hierarchy? @Lot
 

Reluctantly

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@snafupants
@Lot
@Auburn

Pretty insightful article. It mimics the observations I've made with my ENTJ room mate compared to myself. I'll miss living with that prejudiced SOB. Although with him it's less all people as different, and more all people fit in their boxes, but he has a lot of boxes for people to fit in. So people are cut from different cloths, but there aren't an indefinite amount of cloths; if that makes any sense:confused:.

That's the catch though; the idea is Te/Fi orients around differentiation, whereas Ti/Fe orients around universal principles. But it doesn't mean someone won't use the other in support of their mental orientation. For example, in law and order, one can make an argument that all people share kinds of moral aptitude and should be judged based upon that (Ti/Fe); whereas others might argue that children, the "mentally ill", psychotics, etc. have circumstances that reduce their moral aptitude and should be judged less harshly than someone who doesn't have an extenuating circumstance (Te/Fi).

The person oriented to Ti/Fe can still differentiate kinds of moral aptitude, but they only do so as a way to assert universal principles about moral aptitudes in people. In other words, these principles that are asserted are not "open" for questioning or changing. If you want me to be an asshole and give you an example of someone on the forum who argues in this manner, I can't think of a better example than proxyAmenRa (war has been declared on Proxy :evil:).
Similarly, the person oriented to Te/Fi, still makes categorizations about people in order to differentiate them, but it's not to assert them as universal. They are changeable and more or less a suggestion that can be improved upon.

Believe it or not, I think this explains why Jung was keen on reducing types to four temperaments - NT, ST SF, and NF because each extroverted function is tied to its introverted function, conceptually, even though no one will admit this and people are keen on separating the two. This again, is another part of my beef with the Ne/Si and Ni/Se description because someone who is Ne/Si oriented will still have behaviors related to Ni/Se, but they are not Ni/Se oriented. :storks: And people have a hard time understanding this. If we stuck to the concepts though, this wouldn't be a problem, although I do agree that the behaviors are more or less related to their functions in an ontological sense, but not in an experiential sense.

Do you guys have any problems with this? Does this help clarify?
 

Reluctantly

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What exactly were you hoping to "help clarify" again? :slashnew:

Lot mentioned boxes. That Te/Fi also thinks in boxes like Ti/Fe, but just has more of them. But it's not that categorization is Ti/Fe and not categorizing is Te/Fi, as I explained. In explaining this, it also shows how each orientation can take on superficial behaviors of the other.

Following that, I mentioned Jungian temperaments - NT, SF, ST, and NF. Temperaments support the notion that someone who is say Ni+Te oriented is also Ne+Ti at times or in different ways.

So,
You defend the Ne/Si and Ni/Se descriptions, but won't address my criticism about it. I wanted to help make my position clearer by saying "I do agree that the behaviors are more or less related to their functions in an ontological sense, but not in an experiential sense." because of everything I mentioned above.

Now, please address the criticism or you're being evasive and intellectually dishonest.
 

snafupants

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Now, please address the criticism or you're being evasive and intellectually dishonest.

Do you adjudicate these things? :angel:

I can do whatever I please though. :D
Believe it or not, I think this explains why Jung was keen on reducing types to four temperaments - NT, ST SF, and NF because each extroverted function is tied to its introverted function, conceptually, even though no one will admit this and people are keen on separating the two.

Jung, in fact, was also keen on separately explaining each of the eight functions. :phear:

The general criterion for introversion or extraversion is, according to Jung, as follows:

The general-attitude types, as I have pointed out more than once, are differentiated by their particular attitude to the object. The introvert's attitude to the object is an abstracting one; at bottom, he is always facing the problem of how libido can be withdrawn from the object, as though an attempted ascendancy on. the part of the object had to be continually frustrated. The extravert, on the contrary, maintains a positive relation to the object. To such an extent does he affirm its importance that his subjective attitude is continually being orientated by, and related to the object. An fond, the object can never have sufficient value; for him, therefore, its importance must always be paramount.

If you're still unclear on Jung's feeling about these two separate modalities consider:

one submits to a given state of affairs because his experience argues nothing else to be possible, another is convinced that, although it has repeated itself a thousand times in the same way, the thousand and first will be different. The former is orientated by the objective data; the latter reserves a view, which is, as it were, interposed between himself and the objective fact. Now, when the orientation to the object and to objective facts is so predominant that the most frequent and essential decisions and actions are determined, not by subjective values but by objective relations, one speaks of an extraverted attitude. If a man so thinks, feels, and acts, in a word so lives, as to correspond directly with objective conditions and their claims, whether in a good sense or ill, he is extraverted.
 

Reluctantly

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Do you adjudicate these things? :angel:

I can do whatever I please though. :D


No, Snafu. I just want to understand. I don't post for the reason of attempting to tell people what is what; I post so others can point out things I don't know and I can learn. Not so people can try and invalidate what I do know in favor of what they do know. Logic can be so silly. :rolleyes:

Jung, in fact, was also keen on separately explaining each of the eight functions. :phear:

This doesn't refute my criticism. I never asserted that you can't explain them or that you shouldn't or that I don't. What's your point?

The general criterion for introversion or extraversion is, according to Jung, as follows:

Okay. So what's your point? How does that relate to my criticism?
 

Reluctantly

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one submits to a given state of affairs because his experience argues nothing else to be possible, another is convinced that, although it has repeated itself a thousand times in the same way, the thousand and first will be different. The former is orientated by the objective data; the latter reserves a view, which is, as it were, interposed between himself and the objective fact. Now, when the orientation to the object and to objective facts is so predominant that the most frequent and essential decisions and actions are determined, not by subjective values but by objective relations, one speaks of an extraverted attitude. If a man so thinks, feels, and acts, in a word so lives, as to correspond directly with objective conditions and their claims, whether in a good sense or ill, he is extraverted.

I agree. How does that relate to my criticism?
 

Reluctantly

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/tangent

Wow, I have to admit, there seems to be a huge disconnect in the way you communicate with and understand me. I wouldn't be surprised if you were right about being Ti/Fe oriented. You seem focused on finding a reason to disregard everything I say without considering what could be gained from it.
 

Lot

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Maybe a horizontal taxonomy instead of, or more than, a vertical hierarchy? @Lot

It's a mixture of both. He puts different groups in a hierarchy. His own group at the top, of course. Lucky for me I fit in a box on his level:D. But people can't move out of his boxes and if they do it take a lot of work. But that could be more of a ENTJ thing, and have nothing to do with this.

Intuitively the article makes sense to me, but I'm having trouble explaining myself, I think. I haven't read much Jung, so I can't add anything to the other part of the discussion.
 

Reluctantly

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It's a mixture of both. He puts different groups in a hierarchy. His own group at the top, of course. Lucky for me I fit in a box on his level:D. But people can't move out of his boxes and if they do it take a lot of work. But that could be more of a ENTJ thing, and have nothing to do with this.

This is what I mean about Jungian temperaments. It would be more rational to say this is NT behavior than to say it's ENTJ behavior because he displays behavior that can be associated with other NT types, but is Te-Ni oriented. Behavior and mental orientation can be and are different things; but Snafu doesn't seem willing to accept things can be more complicated than he sees things. I'm baffled by this, as it seems he's more concerned about affirming the OP than learning.
 

snafupants

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This is what I mean about Jungian temperaments. It would be more rational to say this is NT behavior than to say it's ENTJ behavior because he displays behavior that can be associated with other NT types, but is Te-Ni oriented. Behavior and mental orientation can be and are different things; but Snafu doesn't seem willing to accept things can be more complicated than he sees things. I'm baffled by this, as it seems he's more concerned about affirming the OP than learning.

Haha you're so bitter. Look at how I responded to Auburn's post, which interested me. :eek:

I'm not under contractual obligation to find your stuff insightful or intriguing. :phear:

But look, I don't have a double standard. Peace out if you disagree so vehemently. By the way, I considered and read all of your previous posts. I simply didn't find them accurate.
 

Auburn

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@Reluctantly - Snafupants is quite probably an NeTi (ENTP) and that style of communication he's using is rather standard for them - though I agree with your frustration. o,o

The person oriented to Ti/Fe can still differentiate kinds of moral aptitude, but they only do so as a way to assert universal principles about moral aptitudes in people. In other words, these principles that are asserted are not "open" for questioning or changing. If you want me to be an asshole and give you an example of someone on the forum who argues in this manner, I can't think of a better example than proxyAmenRa (war has been declared on Proxy)
Proxy is quite likely SiTe (ISTJ) or at very least definitely Te/Fi. That said, that totally isn't how Ti/Fe operates. The reasoning of Ti/Fe is based on collective ethos and it is indeed *very* prone to changing. It IS the *democratic* function pair, and as such tries to form principles that are not only universally true but universally agreed upon. If Fe is let govern the pair, then indeed most of its decisions will be as fluid as the society/network it is in, and adapt itself to it. Its sense of decision making is inescapably tied to the opinions of others and their input.
 

EyeSeeCold

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Believe it or not, I think this explains why Jung was keen on reducing types to four temperaments - NT, ST SF, and NF because each extroverted function is tied to its introverted function, conceptually, even though no one will admit this and people are keen on separating the two. This again, is another part of my beef with the Ne/Si and Ni/Se description because someone who is Ne/Si oriented will still have behaviors related to Ni/Se, but they are not Ni/Se oriented. :storks: And people have a hard time understanding this. If we stuck to the concepts though, this wouldn't be a problem, although I do agree that the behaviors are more or less related to their functions in an ontological sense, but not in an experiential sense.

Do you guys have any problems with this? Does this help clarify?

I'm not sure about him being "keen on reducing types to four temperaments", but he certainly did consider them. I find those temperaments more useful and meaningful than the popular Keirsey ones. The lack of symmetry in Keirsey's makes them unsuitable for highlighting differences and similarities between types through comparison.


11. The Principal and Auxiliary Functions from Psychological Types

Experience shows that the secondary function is always one whose nature is different from, though not antagonistic to, the leading function: thus, for example, thinking, as primary function, can readily pair with intuition as auxiliary, or indeed equally well with sensation, but, as already observed, never with feeling. Neither intuition nor sensation are antagonistic to thinking, i.e. they have not to be unconditionally excluded, since they are not, like feeling, of similar nature, though of opposite purpose, to thinking -- for as a judging function feeling successfully competes with thinking -- but are functions of perception, affording welcome assistance to thought. As soon as they reached the same level of differentiation as thinking, they would cause a change of attitude, which would contradict the tendency of thinking. For they would convert the judging attitude into a perceiving one; whereupon the principle of rationality indispensable to thought would be suppressed in favour of the irrationality of mere perception. Hence the auxiliary function is possible and useful only in so far as it serves the leading function, without making any claim to the autonomy of its own principle.​

So far Jung has established the principle of function dichotomies. Feeling/Thinking can only pair with Sensation/Intuition. This implies temperaments such as NF, NT, SF, and ST however it isn't explicitly pointed out until the following paragraph.

A grouping of the unconscious functions also takes place in accordance with the relationship of the conscious functions. Thus, for instance, an unconscious intuitive-feeling attitude may correspond with a conscious practical intellect, whereby the function of feeling suffers a relatively stronger inhibition than intuition. This peculiarity, however, is of interest only for one who is concerned with the practical psychological treatment of such cases. But for such a man it is important to know about it.​

http://www.american-buddha.com/lit.jungpsychtypes.10.htm#11._The_Principal_and_Auxiliary_Functions
 
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