Type Theory / Natural Selection

[NoID10ts]

Just some questions that have been rattling around my brain amidst all the chaos and nonsense:

How does personality type theory fit into the concept of natural selection?

What is the role of differing personality attributes in the evolutionary sense?

Certain types, such as INTP, are rare. Is it like blue eyes or red hair or other rare attributes?

Have the type percentages always been this way, or are some types slowly becoming extinct in favor of the more dominant types?

What books might discuss these kinds of things?

 

[Dissident]

To answer most of that we would first have to know if type is actually passed genetically or not (or guess )

 

[flow]

personality types ARE passed genetically. It's just a matter of time before that is proven (I'm completely sure of it). This topic has been on my mind all year, and I plan on eventually solving it. Lately, research has shown that different groups of people have evolved differently since leaving africa. I'm sure we'll find that certain personality types tend to be higher in certain populations as well. The studies just need to be done, the evidence is there.

 

[Dissident]

Even if such difference existed, it would be difficult to establish if it comes from genes or cultural influence.

 

[Decaf]

The same thought has been rattling around in my head too, but from the opposite angle I suppose.

Any idea taken took its logical conclusion is inherently unstable and destructive. Just like having a flagpole for a family tree creates risks for increasingly extreme genetic mutations, one ideology by itself creates social problems that are unmitigated by contrary perspectives.

A society that is missing representation by a particular thought process starts sliding toward one-dimensionalism and ruin. I believe this is how empires fall. The same idea works in business. Without flexibility a business will eventually collapse. Flexibility is achieved by diversifying your abilities, or in this case your perspectives.

To use an example lets look at the United States. I believe that most of the problems it is currently experiencing are repercussions for decisions made that ignore any sense of immutable value system. Everything is decided on a case by case. That's something we as INTPs can easily fall victim to as well, but there's a type that doesn't. INFP, which happens to be the opposite of what is evidently the cultural ideal, ESTJ. When the punishments we receive for these decisions become severe enough, the culture will start to look more favorably toward the INFP persona and I believe that will cause those genes to be passed on in greater number.

Like a meme, society has its own set of needs similar to our own psychological needs. When one is neglected for too long, the balance tips and society works to fix it, or it is destroyed.

 

[flow]

Wow I've tried to respond to this now twice and my response disappeared both times. Anyways! I created a topic very near this subject just a few days ago (Biohistory Vs. Culturalism). I suggest checking out the article that I referenced in that topic, it gets interesting once the guy starts talking about the book "the 10,000 Year Explosion".

http://www.intpforum.com/showthread.php?t=1376

Evolution is everywhere.

 

[Gorgrim]

I think evolution will turn the world upside down, less F's more T's. more N's less S's, in terms of personality qualities.. these next 100 years. It would seem like there would be less use for the types, imo, the way thing's are turning out.

 

[Agent Intellect]

the problem with personality type being passed down is that (and we've had a thread on this before, i believe) there doesn't seem to be any correlation. people here tend to have parents of all differing types, and sometimes have parents that are nothing alike as far as type goes (which is also true of my parents). and then, with me for instance, i have massive INTPness, but my sister is ESFJ, so did we get our genes from two different places?

and then theres the fact that, even amongst different types, people are very different from each other. thats why a forum of predominately INTPness can still have a lot of debates and differing views.

typology, as i see it, is how one thinks, not what they think. but so is schitzophrenia, OCD, and autism. those have just been classified as disorders. so the way i see it, its not genetic, its that there is probably only so many ways that a brain can interconnect in order to function. in the womb and during early development certain things (i could only begin to speculate what) must happen that cause the brain to organize itself in a certain way.

the brain, i would say, is a self organizing system that develops in a certain way based off mainly external (upbringing, different chemicals at different times in the womb) and internal (different things develop at different times, certain enzymes or genese become active at different times) stimuli.

 

[Perseus]

Just some questions that have been rattling around my brain amidst all the chaos and nonsense:

How does personality type theory fit into the concept of natural selection?

What is the role of differing personality attributes in the evolutionary sense?

Certain types, such as INTP, are rare. Is it like blue eyes or red hair or other rare attributes?

Have the type percentages always been this way, or are some types slowly becoming extinct in favor of the more dominant types?

What books might discuss these kinds of things?

My best intution backed up by insufficient evidence, is lack of parents, or lack of parental or family or society support, leads to the extreme characters like INFP and INTP, ENTP. The male head of the family is traditionally the Guardian in western society. Guardians understand rules and institutions, something, I have only intellectually been able to grasp.

It is a real problem for me and other people, mainly getting work, as the employers and corparations do understand us. e.g. Idealists will not encompass Absurdism which is an essential requirement in Guardian society.

It is causing me great distress and I really do not know what to do about it.

 

[NoID10ts]

My mother is an ISTJ and my biological father is an INTP. I was actually raised by my step dad though, and he is a raging ESFJ. I'm inclined to think that personality comes from a strong genetic influence, but is perhaps shaped or enhanced by environmental factors as well.

I'm reading Steven Pinker's "How the Mind Works" and he mentions identical twins, seperated at birth, and how they end up with striking similarities regardless of being raised in different environments. Stuff like that makes me think there is a strong genetic influence here that runs deeper than what might be obvious. But mostly, I am just thinking out loud.

I just wonder if there is one type that evolution would favor over a long enough period of time. But then again, times and the needs of humanity change so maybe it is in flux.

Ah hell, I don't know what I'm talking about.

 

[Agent Intellect]

well, even genetics can change (read: Epigenetics). i'm sure there is a genetic influence to personality type, i'm just saying that, from what i've read on this board, the correlations between parents and kids seems very loose as far as type goes, so i don't think any conclusion can be drawn from that (perhaps a more direct poll thread could be made about it, though).

one thing that i am interested in (that was asked in the original post) is the distribution and "purpose" in society of each personality type. each type does seem to play a certain roll in the structure of society (i think i touched on this in a thread a while back). as far as INTP, being the very curious type, i imagine them being the ones to figure certain things out based on the observations of the Sensor types (that i referred to as sort of the eyes, hands, and feet of society). using the data collected, i see INTP's (and probably NT's in general) as the ones that analyzed the data on things such as when and where certain animals migrated, or whether predators were nocturnal or not, and were able to extrapolate that "the tribe should go here during this time of year and not wander off during the night".

what i find most curious, though, is the seeming distribution of personality types. why are some rare while others are not? is it that the SJ type is a more efficient way for the brain to develop? is it really a physiological thing that seperates the types (ie if one were to dissect or MRI the brain of an SJ and the brain of an NT, certain areas would be more developed in one then the other)? which type could really be considered the "norm" (as in, could INTPness really be considered a disfunction of the brain? it almost seems like INTPness goes against the social structure of society, perhaps its pathological.)?

 

[flow]

I think we're just looking at our nuclear families in this case, and we need to look further for the pattern. I'm thinking extended family's have dominant traits. In my family of Kelleher's (my father's side), we all tend to be very intuitive thinkers (especially my generation of cousins).. My dad comes from a family of 5 brothers and 2 sisters. If I could guess their personalities it'd go (in birth order): ESFJ, ENTP, INTP, INTP, ISTP, ENTP, ENFJ. Four NTs, plus an NT father, making that the apparent dominant trait. Also my grandfather is probably an INTP, and my grandma an ESTJ. Most of my cousins are NTs as well. Of course, we'd really need to look at both sides of the family (mom's and dad's).. That's a lot of different genes now that I think about it...ughh Idk.
I think if we studied extended family lines with evidence towards their personality types, we could find overlying patterns. My roommate who is an ESFJ constantly talks about how his family all thinks like him, I've been around his family and can attest to it. I'm thinking his family's dominant trait is SJ. If I had a theory, it's that most families carry dominant traits of either SJ, SP, NT, or NF. I'm probably wrong, but this could possibly be a path to finding some kind of personality pattern. If you can guess the personalities of your cousins, uncles, aunts, etc..maybe a pattern would show up? This also explains why certain individuals in families stand out as not one of the group, they probably have recessive personality traits.
I've always wanted to look at family tree's with personality types instead of names.. it'd be an interesting study.

 

[Agent Intellect]

the problem with looking at extended family is you're bound to find patterns with only 16 types total, and 4 groups of types (and most people seem to broaden it more to seperate into intuitives and sensors). it will become confirmation bias (you'll notice the similarities and ignore the differences). i'm still thinking that theres just a few different ways for the brain to develop. extroverted and sensor is probably a little easier across the board, thinking or feeling is probably a little more gender specefic but still dependant on the way the brain develops (inside and outside the womb), and perceiver and judger is probably a development thing, but i'd say it probably also have the most emphasis on upbringing. but, thats just my theory.

 

[NoID10ts]

It seems like the ESTJ type is the most suited to be a survival machine, the closest to the darwinian "survival of the fittest" model, because those individual traits seem to me to be the strongest from a pure survival aspect. I'm not sure if that makes any sense.

Could they one day be the dominant type over all, or will the pendulum swing in favor of other attributes due to new developments in human society?

I don't really know what I'm talking about, just thinking.


Also, the couselor who gave me the mbti told me yesterday that some people are questioning whether the F/T is really an axis like the other traits and that the jungian model may be off in that regard. I don't know if I explained that right , but is anyone familiar with this? I'm not sure it makes sense to me.

 

[Decaf]

It seems like the ESTJ type is the most suited to be a survival machine, the closest to the darwinian "survival of the fittest" model, because those individual traits seem to me to be the strongest from a pure survival aspect.

I've wondered that too, but I don't think so. After all, the majority of the world lives in cultures where ESTJ is NOT considered the most ideal personality. It maybe the most aggressive empire builder, but I think it also has a tendency to run straight off cliffs through lack of foresight. I don't believe there is a personality type that survives hand over fist better than other types, rather that cultures that appreciate the perspectives of all the types are the most likely to thrive and those that ignore some are the most likely to dwindle or collapse.

Also, the couselor who gave me the mbti told me yesterday that some people are questioning whether the F/T is really an axis like the other traits and that the jungian model may be off in that regard. I don't know if I explained that right , but is anyone familiar with this? I'm not sure it makes sense to me.

Its the nature vs. nurture argument. They are assuming that the other three dichotomies are genetic and T vs. F is purely environmental (because it ties in so neatly with masculinity and femininity). My personal belief is that this is a cop out by those who refuse to let go of gender roles, but that's kind of judgmental on my part. I haven't actually heard their rationale, so who knows, it might be compelling.

 

[Gorgrim]

What happened to the fact that identical twins grew up with different personalities?

I am not sure how much a "basis of personality" is formed from womb activities. Such as how the two babies interact with eachother.. If you disregard any "womb enviroment" the difference would occur from a enviromental standpoint...after birth

atleast from my dad and his indentical twin brother it appears this way. Any other people with cases of this?


Also... do you think children might develop because whoever that guide them early want children to act certain ways, or is that irrelevant? that bugs me now...

 

[eudemonia]

I would like to find out more about the T/F dimension. I get quite confused by my own preferences here. I am not a F. When I read my husbands religios books for example I tend to throw them down in disgust as unsubstantiated drivel (sorry husband!). Yet I find it difficult to get motivated by highly abstract and philosophical discussions. My immediate thought is how can I apply this to - horror - help people - a very F trait. Sometimes I think its because I just lack the intelligence as in any discussion about science. But sometimes it is a definite preference. I think of myself as an INnothingP!

 

[Decaf]

I would like to find out more about the T/F dimension. I get quite confused by my own preferences here.

• If someone tells a joke where someone gets hurt, can the punchline still be funny sometimes?
  
• How do you feel about the UFC? Is it pointless violence, or an interesting contest of ability?
  
• When you take a test do you tend to score better than you thought you would or worse?
  
• What is your threshold of isolation? How long can you be without anyone? When did you start your first serious relationship?

You don't need to answer those questions here, but I hope that by answering them to yourself you can get some greater clarity on the issue.

(Thanks EB for the confidence boost. For a while I've felt like how I help people must be on a impersonal level in order to use my strengths. Time stop accepting my self-doubts as infallible truth.)

 

[eudemonia]

Thanks Decaf - that was quick! Answering them on my own doesn't help so maybe I can answer here. Jokes - I don't find funny only when they are at the expense of the teller - how absurd am I type of thing. Ufc?? I only know that I dislike anything competitve - hate winning,hate losing, hate focusing my attention so narrowly. Relationships - haven't had many. First when 17, current one since 19 (30 years!). I like my own company more and more probably because I have been surrounded by family needs for the past 15 years. I'm not sure where all that leaves me. So if you have any insights Decaf I'd be grateful.

 

[NoID10ts]

• If someone tells a joke where someone gets hurt, can the punchline still be funny sometimes?

What does it mean that we have both "Kill the Last Poster" and "Corrupt a Wish" threads here?

 

[Decaf]

Ufc??

UFC stands for Ultimate Fighting Championship, which is basically professional boxing with the aim of more realistic combat (where boxing is replaced by mixed martial arts). If you prefer you can think of boxing.

I like my own company more and more probably because I have been surrounded by family needs for the past 15 years.

But could you go a week without human contact? Would you feel refreshed or desperate?

 

[eudemonia]

refreshed - definitely

 

[Agent Intellect]

i don't think any personality type is better evolved then another. each type is better evolved to fit a certain purpose in society (complexity theory and self organizing systems: read the thread about it to understand what i mean!). the system (society) seems to self organize based on the needs of society, as far as the distribution of personality types go. the US, with its rugged individualism and free market competitiveness, ESTJ flourishes. the US is definitely not an INTP friendly society. and to say that type devolopment is either nature or nurture seems wrong: i'd say its both.

as far as T vs F, the way i always see it is objective vs subjective (and perhaps i'm wrong). thinking about those two terms, objective is derived from the word object. what is an object? its a thing. whats a subject? its what the "thing" is about. to me, T's seem to approach things with the question "what is it?" while F's seem to approach things with the question "what is it about?"

a good example is when watching a television show (i'll use the show "House" as an example, since me and my sister both watch it) my sister (ESFJ) gets really into the back stories of all the characters, the interrelationships. she gets really excited when good things happen for the characters and sad when bad things happen (and, of course, i make fun of her for it). for me, i hate all that drama bullshit, all i watch the show for is to see House act like an asshole to people and figure out the diagnosis.

 

[NoID10ts]

I would like to disagree with AI for no apparent reason. Just because I feel like being an asshole to him. AI will like that because he likes assholes. <---- That didn't come out right, did it?


Actually, I hadn't considered the cultural aspect of it. I suppose it's a tremendously important factor in how different types flourish in society. What culture, do you all suppose, would be INTP friendly?

 

[Agent Intellect]

Actually, I hadn't considered the cultural aspect of it. I suppose it's a tremendously important factor in how different types flourish in society. What culture, do you all suppose, would be INTP friendly?

i've also been trying to think of that, but i can't think of a functional INTP friendly society. its a bit of a paradox, because INTP's are so curious yet such bad procrastinators. i think we depend on other types to gather hard facts for us to ponder over and interpret. its probably why NT's are so rare.

 

[Decaf]

i've also been trying to think of that, but i can't think of a functional INTP friendly society. its a bit of a paradox, because INTP's are so curious yet such bad procrastinators. i think we depend on other types to gather hard facts for us to ponder over and interpret. its probably why NT's are so rare.

So whatever country it is, it likely has a diverse educational system, but little economic power unless its rich in natural resources. That's one of the reasons why I would like to visit New Zealand, but all I can really say is that I think NZ is definitely introverted. I suspect they are also intuitive looking at their humor (though they are pretty excited by sports, so possibly sensing). As far as thinking and perceiving, I think that's the case, but I don't have enough information to go on.

Can anyone think of some other potential candidates?

 

[NoID10ts]

Does Antarctica have any land up for grabs? Those penguins seem like ESTJs to me, but I think we could take them and stake out a little INTP spot for ourselves.