• OK, it's on.
  • Please note that many, many Email Addresses used for spam, are not accepted at registration. Select a respectable Free email.
  • Done now. Domine miserere nobis.

Type Sam Harris

QuickTwist

Spiritual "Woo"
Local time
Today 5:42 AM
Joined
Jan 24, 2013
Messages
7,182
---
Location
...
Except that he actually learned to think about the inter-relations between people. Its like when you learn about something that is totally contradictory to your nature but you can't help but see the reason behind it so you jump on board with it because it only makes sense to. I'm not dogmatically saying he is INTJ, but that is what makes sense to me and no one has had any evidence that says that he can't be this type. Singling out specifics that make him look like one type or another is the worst way to type someone. I look at things like mannerisms and speech patters just as much as I look at what is actually said and done. Honestly, it doesn't make any sense to say he is any other type than INTJ the more I think about it. If you (anyone) disagrees I guess we will just agree to disagree unless someone can read people really well like I can and can put those thoughts down in a well thought out way I doubt I will change my mind.
 

QuickTwist

Spiritual "Woo"
Local time
Today 5:42 AM
Joined
Jan 24, 2013
Messages
7,182
---
Location
...
Thisis one of the stupidest debates I have ever been in. Why the Fuck does it even matter what the fuck his type is. get with the program, MBTI is for newbs.
 

Cherry Cola

Banned
Local time
Today 11:42 AM
Joined
Mar 17, 2013
Messages
3,899
---
Location
stockholm
Except that he actually learned to think about the inter-relations between people. Its like when you learn about something that is totally contradictory to your nature but you can't help but see the reason behind it so you jump on board with it because it only makes sense to. I'm not dogmatically saying he is INTJ, but that is what makes sense to me and no one has had any evidence that says that he can't be this type. Singling out specifics that make him look like one type or another is the worst way to type someone. I look at things like mannerisms and speech patters just as much as I look at what is actually said and done. Honestly, it doesn't make any sense to say he is any other type than INTJ the more I think about it. If you (anyone) disagrees I guess we will just agree to disagree unless someone can read people really well like I can and can put those thoughts down in a well thought out way I doubt I will change my mind.

1. Actually Tberg and I have brought up several points.

2. Oh, you've gotta look at mannerism and stuff and not just what he says explicitly? Shit I totally didn't know about that! ;)

3. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect
 

QuickTwist

Spiritual "Woo"
Local time
Today 5:42 AM
Joined
Jan 24, 2013
Messages
7,182
---
Location
...
Glad your aware of point number 3. ;)

I hold no reservation for being the best at anything. The very thought of it is absurd. So your basically saying I am stupid cuz I am somehow overvaluing my competences in judging peoples motives. Well, your full of shit. Why don't you go to a bookshop and look at a graffiti picture book or something.

I'm done talking about this, go start shit with someone else.
 

ZenRaiden

One atom of me
Local time
Today 11:42 AM
Joined
Jul 27, 2013
Messages
5,262
---
Location
Between concrete walls

Brontosaurie

Banned
Local time
Today 12:42 PM
Joined
Dec 4, 2010
Messages
5,646
---
"the exceptionally narrow lense of truth claims and discreet ideas" hahahhahaha this is some forced shit alright
 

TBerg

fallen angel who hasn't earned his wings
Local time
Today 5:42 AM
Joined
Oct 8, 2013
Messages
2,453
---
So, Sam Harris is guilty because he is trying to present a countervailing rectification of leftist materialist garbage and saying that lots of people actually believe what they say they believe and that this motivates their life choices? Are you capable of arguing for yourself and not relying upon straw men hit pieces on Sam Harris? Are you capable of knowing what he actually says?
 

Cherry Cola

Banned
Local time
Today 11:42 AM
Joined
Mar 17, 2013
Messages
3,899
---
Location
stockholm
Cause debating him would be useless. his stuff doesnt have much content to be honest. Here is an interesting article of course there are more articles. http://anamericanatheist.org/2012/09/26/sam-harris-is-wrong/

Some points in the article (Harris does blames too much on the content of the scriptures and is ignorant of other factors, but on the other hand, the author article does the same thing when he dismisses the notion of pre-modernism as a cause). Some strawmans (the analysis of Harris doesn't acknowledge nothing but Islam, he doesn't think all Muslims cannot be trusted, the contents of the exchange between Harris and Schneier are not what the article claims). Still: So? That's not his only subject. Harris writes about many things. I think he's brilliantly clearsighted when it comes to moral issues for instance.

But I disgress, why is he an INTP again? Bitches who think he isn't INFJ are getting wrecked in this thread.
 

Grayman

Soul Shade
Local time
Today 3:42 AM
Joined
Jan 8, 2013
Messages
4,418
---
Location
You basement
Hes obviously INFJ. Being older it is not surprising he has expanded upon his Ti but he is diplomatic and fully aware of the motives of others. The host must be INTJ as he is capable of understanding the perspective of Sam with intuition but he keeps getting caught up in drawing straight lines ignoring the larger picture. Hes more concerned with being logical from point A to B and not realy realizing A and B are not even relational to the larger picture the other guy is trying to paint.
 

TheManBeyond

Banned
Local time
Today 11:42 AM
Joined
Apr 19, 2014
Messages
2,850
---
Location
Objects in the mirror might look closer than they
Well in fact i had a sudden realization, they both remember me of the guys from true detective.
INFP for Harris and ESFJ for the host.
Fuck my mind cant' stop making conections now Harris reminds me of nanook!
Is this the ultimate proof for me of not being an INFP?
Or is it possible that there's a wide range of subtypes of INFPs? Different IQs different outcomes?
 

QuickTwist

Spiritual "Woo"
Local time
Today 5:42 AM
Joined
Jan 24, 2013
Messages
7,182
---
Location
...
Well in fact i had a sudden realization, they both remember me of the guys from true detective.
INFP for Harris and ESFJ for the host.
Fuck my mind cant' stop making conections now Harris reminds me of nanook!
Is this the ultimate proof for me of not being an INFP?
Or is it possible that there's a wide range of subtypes of INFPs? Different IQs different outcomes?

We need more posts like this in the forum.
 

Cherry Cola

Banned
Local time
Today 11:42 AM
Joined
Mar 17, 2013
Messages
3,899
---
Location
stockholm
yeah we need more posts that disagree with the people quicktwist disagrees with

infp and esfj both kinda totally out of the picture, entj for the host? I dunno, certainly not F though
 

Grayman

Soul Shade
Local time
Today 3:42 AM
Joined
Jan 8, 2013
Messages
4,418
---
Location
You basement
yeah we need more posts that disagree with the people quicktwist disagrees with

infp and esfj both kinda totally out of the picture, entj for the host? I dunno, certainly not F though

The host is very much Fi but I don't get a strong sense of Fi. He isn't very aware or is just unconcerned with the social structure as it pertains to Fe standards. The whole point Sam was trying to make was that the actual religion and book is instrumental to the effects of the behaviors adopted by those who practice that religion but the host was caught up in his own Fi judgment not seeing the social structure only going back to thoughts that indicated (Religion is bad). An INFP could have done a better job of exploring that feeling he had of religion and defining where it was moving his arguments and how to be more acceptable to the other guys argument and the feelings that drove them but this guys Fi was there but also poorly there so he seemed entirely (Fi dumb) (Fe absent) to me. Being a host he would likely be an extrovert so I do recant my INTJ and adopt your suggestion of ENTJ.
 

Hadoblado

think again losers
Local time
Today 9:12 PM
Joined
Mar 17, 2011
Messages
7,065
---
Oooh thread traffic :3

ZenRaiden:
He says something that is opposed to your views. Rather than dismissing him as an idiot, please state how what he says is wrong.

QT:
The guys obviously INTJ. He knows what hes doing even if no one else does. The whole INTP thing is way too premature. The guy has way too much of a focus to be that air headed guy with his head in the clouds.
__________________
So he’s ‘obviously’ INTJ? I agree with you… well that’s he’s INTJ… not that it’s obvious. Ti users bring immense focus to the table when it comes to fine distinctions, and he throws them around like sex appeal. His thoughts are very refined, but he’s not taking them from others. It’s like his entire career is taking what he derives internally and applying it externally. But that internally derived material is not the child of Ni alone… it’s far too applicable and communicable. It might be that he’s using Te within a paradigm of truth to replicate Ti to refine his Ni perspectives…. But isn’t that exactly Ti?
He is Te and not Fe because he is just too good at laying down the law. He learned somewhere down the line that it is better to address issues directly instead of maneuver around them for peace's sake.
I think that that’s ideological. The guy doesn’t like dishonesty. He literally believes that directness is the best way to achieve peace. His directness is not mutually exclusive with Fe. (This all said, how he can condone dishonesty while simultaneously euphemising torture as discomfort is… well I’m still waiting to read the explanation behind that particular move).

I think Tberg/CC’s point about his morality being universal was good, and that you should address it since this would fly in the face of at least part of your reasoning for him being INTJ.

Except that he actually learned to think about the inter-relations between people. Its like when you learn about something that is totally contradictory to your nature but you can't help but see the reason behind it so you jump on board with it because it only makes sense to. I'm not dogmatically saying he is INTJ, but that is what makes sense to me and no one has had any evidence that says that he can't be this type. Singling out specifics that make him look like one type or another is the worst way to type someone. I look at things like mannerisms and speech patters just as much as I look at what is actually said and done. Honestly, it doesn't make any sense to say he is any other type than INTJ the more I think about it. If you (anyone) disagrees I guess we will just agree to disagree unless someone can read people really well like I can and can put those thoughts down in a well thought out way I doubt I will change my mind.
______
“It makes sense to me and I’ll only accept evidence that is impossible to obtain” is not a position you can grow from. As far as I’m aware, there is not a single action that could rule out any type for anyone – typology is a system that is carefully constructed to explain all behaviours in service of a conclusion to a particular type. If Sam Harris came to an interview naked walking on his hands typology could explain it by saying he’s trapped in a shadow function. If you like typology and want to type people, it’s about weighing up all the evidence for different conclusions and then judging what fits best, not assuming a certain conclusion until decisive contrary evidence comes into play.

Also, this ‘agree to disagree’ thing I see you do a lot. I think that it’s both useful and harmful, because it allows shit to fly that shouldn’t, but disarms potential hostility. If you ever played magic the gathering, it’s like a ‘fog’ spell.

Image.ashx


Fog is not used by players who are winning combat. To me, it looks like this is your go-to ‘get out of jail free’ card. You can pick and ponder, and if ever you actually have your view directly attacked you can agree to disagree and walk away unscathed. If this is the case, I think it’s fundamentally dishonest to enter any debate under the pretence of open-mindedness. I would only ever agree to disagree if I understood exactly why it is that we disagree, and that that issue is one in which neither party is mistaken (or if the other party is obviously not interested in hearing me).
Thisis one of the stupidest debates I have ever been in. Why the Fuck does it even matter what the fuck his type is. get with the program, MBTI is for newbs.
This also evidences the defensive mindset. You cared about the issue until a certain point, then you didn’t care about the issue and you attacked the legitimacy of anyone continuing to discuss it. In your opinion, what made you change your mind?




@CC
I dunno, I see the Fe you speak of, but it’s almost algorithmic. To me it seems a strategy, he doesn’t believe he can achieve his aims through needless aggression of any kind, and he recognises value comes from acknowledging similarities in perspectives. He’s channelling his inner calm – He’s trying to come off as the reasonable one, even though he does a lot of his own interrupting.
1) Sit here looking reasonable
2) Make sure opponent doesn’t get away with any loose terms
3) Answer questions
4) Dismiss anything irrelevant

Harris does blames too much on the content of the scriptures and is ignorant of other factors, but on the other hand, the author article does the same thing when he dismisses the notion of pre-modernism as a cause
I agree that he is likely placing too much blame on the scripture, but this crime pales in comparison to the blanket assumption in most other camps that scripture cannot possibly have any effect whatsoever. The first question we should be asking is whether it has an effect at all. If we conclude that it does, then we open the door to trying to measure the strength and direction of that effect. To me it seems patently obvious that it does have an effect, and that people who don’t believe this are either being dishonest or have a glaring double standard. If scripture couldn’t have any effect on behaviour, how does it ever hope to instil a moral framework? Why do so many scriptures have memetic properties built in if they don’t actually have any effect on how followers will behave? Why do we then see the fruits of these elements in follower behaviour. The issue seems an extension of selective attribution (the scripture being God’s word). Scripture is an obvious example, but I by no means single it out.
 

QuickTwist

Spiritual "Woo"
Local time
Today 5:42 AM
Joined
Jan 24, 2013
Messages
7,182
---
Location
...
Oooh thread traffic :3

ZenRaiden:
He says something that is opposed to your views. Rather than dismissing him as an idiot, please state how what he says is wrong.

QT:
So he’s ‘obviously’ INTJ? I agree with you… well that’s he’s INTJ… not that it’s obvious. Ti users bring immense focus to the table when it comes to fine distinctions, and he throws them around like sex appeal. His thoughts are very refined, but he’s not taking them from others. It’s like his entire career is taking what he derives internally and applying it externally. But that internally derived material is not the child of Ni alone… it’s far too applicable and communicable. It might be that he’s using Te within a paradigm of truth to replicate Ti to refine his Ni perspectives…. But isn’t that exactly Ti?
I think that that’s ideological. The guy doesn’t like dishonesty. He literally believes that directness is the best way to achieve peace. His directness is not mutually exclusive with Fe. (This all said, how he can condone dishonesty while simultaneously euphemising torture as discomfort is… well I’m still waiting to read the explanation behind that particular move).

I think Tberg/CC’s point about his morality being universal was good, and that you should address it since this would fly in the face of at least part of your reasoning for him being INTJ.

Except that he actually learned to think about the inter-relations between people. Its like when you learn about something that is totally contradictory to your nature but you can't help but see the reason behind it so you jump on board with it because it only makes sense to. I'm not dogmatically saying he is INTJ, but that is what makes sense to me and no one has had any evidence that says that he can't be this type. Singling out specifics that make him look like one type or another is the worst way to type someone. I look at things like mannerisms and speech patters just as much as I look at what is actually said and done. Honestly, it doesn't make any sense to say he is any other type than INTJ the more I think about it. If you (anyone) disagrees I guess we will just agree to disagree unless someone can read people really well like I can and can put those thoughts down in a well thought out way I doubt I will change my mind.
______
“It makes sense to me and I’ll only accept evidence that is impossible to obtain” is not a position you can grow from. As far as I’m aware, there is not a single action that could rule out any type for anyone – typology is a system that is carefully constructed to explain all behaviours in service of a conclusion to a particular type. If Sam Harris came to an interview naked walking on his hands typology could explain it by saying he’s trapped in a shadow function. If you like typology and want to type people, it’s about weighing up all the evidence for different conclusions and then judging what fits best, not assuming a certain conclusion until decisive contrary evidence comes into play.

Also, this ‘agree to disagree’ thing I see you do a lot. I think that it’s both useful and harmful, because it allows shit to fly that shouldn’t, but disarms potential hostility. If you ever played magic the gathering, it’s like a ‘fog’ spell.

Image.ashx


Fog is not used by players who are winning combat. To me, it looks like this is your go-to ‘get out of jail free’ card. You can pick and ponder, and if ever you actually have your view directly attacked you can agree to disagree and walk away unscathed. If this is the case, I think it’s fundamentally dishonest to enter any debate under the pretence of open-mindedness. I would only ever agree to disagree if I understood exactly why it is that we disagree, and that that issue is one in which neither party is mistaken (or if the other party is obviously not interested in hearing me).
This also evidences the defensive mindset. You cared about the issue until a certain point, then you didn’t care about the issue and you attacked the legitimacy of anyone continuing to discuss it. In your opinion, what made you change your mind?




@CC
I dunno, I see the Fe you speak of, but it’s almost algorithmic. To me it seems a strategy, he doesn’t believe he can achieve his aims through needless aggression of any kind, and he recognises value comes from acknowledging similarities in perspectives. He’s channelling his inner calm – He’s trying to come off as the reasonable one, even though he does a lot of his own interrupting.
1) Sit here looking reasonable
2) Make sure opponent doesn’t get away with any loose terms
3) Answer questions
4) Dismiss anything irrelevant

I agree that he is likely placing too much blame on the scripture, but this crime pales in comparison to the blanket assumption in most other camps that scripture cannot possibly have any effect whatsoever. The first question we should be asking is whether it has an effect at all. If we conclude that it does, then we open the door to trying to measure the strength and direction of that effect. To me it seems patently obvious that it does have an effect, and that people who don’t believe this are either being dishonest or have a glaring double standard. If scripture couldn’t have any effect on behaviour, how does it ever hope to instil a moral framework? Why do so many scriptures have memetic properties built in if they don’t actually have any effect on how followers will behave? Why do we then see the fruits of these elements in follower behaviour. The issue seems an extension of selective attribution (the scripture being God’s word). Scripture is an obvious example, but I by no means single it out.
Alright fine I'll respond, but its not really my style anymore. I said this before and I'm sure I'll say it again: I am totally burnt out on arguing. Somewhere along the line I realized there is no point to it cuz you'll never change someone else's mind unless they are really open minded, in which case 99% of the time these people don't want a debate to begin with.

Yes it is obvious to me that this guy is INTJ. I may not have articulated my point well cuz at this point I care more about what sounds interesting rather than what my actual thoughts on the subject are because they are boring for the most part and I have a large disconnect between what I actually think and how that translates what that is on paper.

But that internally derived material is not the child of Ni alone… it’s far too applicable and communicable. It might be that he’s using Te within a paradigm of truth to replicate Ti to refine his Ni perspectives…. But isn’t that exactly Ti?

You lost me. It just looks like an over complicated mess to me. Keep it simple, say what you observe, unless you can't articulate your thought process well like myself.

I think that that’s ideological. The guy doesn’t like dishonesty. He literally believes that directness is the best way to achieve peace. His directness is not mutually exclusive with Fe. (This all said, how he can condone dishonesty while simultaneously euphemising torture as discomfort is… well I’m still waiting to read the explanation behind that particular move).

Easy.. the guy is so estranged to using nuance of feeling that he automatically defaults to the rational mind.

I think Tberg/CC’s point about his morality being universal was good, and that you should address it since this would fly in the face of at least part of your reasoning for him being INTJ.

This is where it really gets into the area of a gut feel I have about the guy, so it is an educated guess on his character and what were the key influences in his life from his past. I'd say he grew up very rational, in a well to do family who taught him to dot his i's and cross his T's. I also think he was taught about fundamentalism of one sort or another. All his needs were met and he proly never or very rarely felt his values were violated so he was able to evolve his goal for the common good. He is obviously well studied and in his studies he came across of info (at least info that stuck out to him) that preached that if you are capable, you must devote yourself to a greater good of all people -such is a mark of many great thinkers who grew up with not a worry in the world of their world view being shattered.

“It makes sense to me and I’ll only accept evidence that is impossible to obtain” is not a position you can grow from. As far as I’m aware, there is not a single action that could rule out any type for anyone – typology is a system that is carefully constructed to explain all behaviours in service of a conclusion to a particular type. If Sam Harris came to an interview naked walking on his hands typology could explain it by saying he’s trapped in a shadow function. If you like typology and want to type people, it’s about weighing up all the evidence for different conclusions and then judging what fits best, not assuming a certain conclusion until decisive contrary evidence comes into play.

I don't even try to rationalize everything I think, because honestly I have so much intuition and so many gut feelings I can't explain that I just gave up trying to figure out how my subconscious works. While being entirely conscious and open about your rationalizations can be helpful, in a setting like this, on a forum where there are no points given or taken away, it is really overachieving what is expected. furthermore, while MBTI/Jungian theory can explain a behavior or set of behaviors it is only one perspective and is largely open to interpretation. Then take the immensely complex motives someone who is as polished and well learnt at this Sam guy, it get into the realm of absurd to try and say what type he is indefinitely. Its not like a logical process where there is a single answer that appears obvious once the answer is discovered.




About the whole fog spell thing: Yeah I get what your saying and normally you would be right, but you greatly underestimate how few fucks I give about a formal informal debate where there is no clear winner and the only reason to do it is for shear entertainment. To me its like playing tag when you are an adult. Its just kids playing like they are some sophisticated posh debate club team. Plus you proly wouldn't even have viewed it as a debate if I wouldn't have dropped the word like its a hot potato. And really lets be fair, I've done a pretty damn good job up until this point (this time back to the forum) staying away from that debate stuff. I'm more the hit 'n' run type rather than the long drawn out exercise where info runs fast and furious and people are acting like they are smart, but they actually look quite ridiculous. I used to get it in with the best of em, but I've distanced my self from that. Its no longer my expertise -after all I am a feeler and a sensor, what use does an artist have for debate?
 

MellifluousSky

4w5 sp/sx
Local time
Today 5:42 AM
Joined
Dec 3, 2014
Messages
36
---
Location
USA
Seriously folks? If he was an INFJ he'd be interacting with people with his first extroverted function - Fe. Do you actually see any Fe in that guy? He's one the most deadpan and serious people I've seen. I've watched a lot of the atheist debate videos with him and others, have you ever seen him laugh? I've never, in roundtables where Hitchens and others are laughing at some joke, he's completely straight. In this video see how well he handles himself against accusations, he's completely cool and stays with the intellectual argument.

Now I don't think you're completely off base, but are close. If I had to pick I'd put him as a INTJ. He has the deadpan no humor seriousness, plus unlike the other athiests (except Dawkins) he has the Te world-system building ideas he would like us all to follow (Imagine A World Without Religion ideas)
As an INFJ/4w5 sp/sx, I don't see much Fe as well...definitely comfortable with confrontation...cool as a cucumber. Aversion to confrontation is a hallmark of INFJ. For myself, there is no way in hell I would be that cool under fire and definitely not over three hours. At some point, my animation would become "apparently overt". I would dread such an interview because of the argumentative nature of it, and my statements would be compromised by the need to maintain a level of harmony that would allow the interview to continue.

This would not be my scene. Period...and definitely not sustained. Our previous grievances would have to be ironed out in writing beforehand, so that when I sat down with him, the interview could be about ideas and not clarification, accusations or mixed interpretations. Harris seems more rational than feeling...very serious...all business. Moreover, he immediately goes on the offensive in the opening minutes of the interview. His interviewer is much more emotive and Harris never meets this with anything but cool resolve and rational verbiage. He NEVER warms the atmosphere...he is comfortable "in the cold". Fe will warm at least to a minimal degree.

For two guys who embrace atheism, they seem pretty far apart in their interpretations of how statements that have been made "appear" to others, or at least the interviewer does...Harris seems more concerned with his internal feelings about how he has been slandered, less concerned with how his previous statements and opinions have been interpreted in the Muslim world. There is a certain obliviousness about him I think. The interviewer tries to make him see this...that people in the Muslim world will view what he has said previously through their own personal lens of perspective. I see a cool, non-flinching rationalist here...not INFJ.
 

TheManBeyond

Banned
Local time
Today 11:42 AM
Joined
Apr 19, 2014
Messages
2,850
---
Location
Objects in the mirror might look closer than they
"I have two daughters who will one day take drugs. Of course, I will do everything in my power to see that they choose their drugs wisely, but a life lived entirely without drugs is neither foreseeable nor, I think, desirable. I hope they someday enjoy a morning cup of tea or coffee as much as I do. If they drink alcohol as adults, as they probably will, I will encourage them to do it safely. If they choose to smoke marijuana, I will urge moderation.[2] Tobacco should be shunned, and I will do everything within the bounds of decent parenting to steer them away from it. Needless to say, if I knew that either of my daughters would eventually develop a fondness for methamphetamine or crack cocaine, I might never sleep again. But if they don’t try a psychedelic like psilocybin or LSD at least once in their adult lives, I will wonder whether they had missed one of the most important rites of passage a human being can experience."

Harris - Drugs and the Meaning of Life

Obvious Fi.
 

Grayman

Soul Shade
Local time
Today 3:42 AM
Joined
Jan 8, 2013
Messages
4,418
---
Location
You basement
"I have two daughters who will one day take drugs. Of course, I will do everything in my power to see that they choose their drugs wisely, but a life lived entirely without drugs is neither foreseeable nor, I think, desirable. I hope they someday enjoy a morning cup of tea or coffee as much as I do. If they drink alcohol as adults, as they probably will, I will encourage them to do it safely. If they choose to smoke marijuana, I will urge moderation.[2] Tobacco should be shunned, and I will do everything within the bounds of decent parenting to steer them away from it. Needless to say, if I knew that either of my daughters would eventually develop a fondness for methamphetamine or crack cocaine, I might never sleep again. But if they don’t try a psychedelic like psilocybin or LSD at least once in their adult lives, I will wonder whether they had missed one of the most important rites of passage a human being can experience."

Harris - Drugs and the Meaning of Life

Obvious Fi.

So many judgements. Why a tabacco hater? Now LSD is a necessary experience of life....? Your experi3nce may have been necessary but that doesn't mean anyone else would even have the same experience with the drug and become so desirous.


I want to disagree about Fi but cannot.
 

ZenRaiden

One atom of me
Local time
Today 11:42 AM
Joined
Jul 27, 2013
Messages
5,262
---
Location
Between concrete walls
That's not his only subject. Harris writes about many things. I think he's brilliantly clearsighted when it comes to moral issues for instance.

When it comes to moral issues hes clear sighted alrighty right....but not really. All he has is modern dogmatic mantra just like Hitchens. They dont really add any content. They are only debating the most obvious. Even three year olds can do that. +What exactly are they debating? What is so profound and intellectual about those guys? Most of the time they are debating the obvious and occasionly they go off to say something thats complete bullshit. These guys have a small cult of naive youngsters that follow them around and listen to their horseshit and go about how to be moral and atheist without really knowing even what ateisth and moral means. Maybe they think that being atheist means that automatically they have impeccable morals and they can speak on behalf of atheist or something. Well I am atheist too and I think they talk nonsense.
 

Cherry Cola

Banned
Local time
Today 11:42 AM
Joined
Mar 17, 2013
Messages
3,899
---
Location
stockholm
As an INFJ/4w5 sp/sx, I don't see much Fe as well...definitely comfortable with confrontation...cool as a cucumber. Aversion to confrontation is a hallmark of INFJ. For myself, there is no way in hell I would be that cool under fire and definitely not over three hours. At some point, my animation would become "apparently overt". I would dread such an interview because of the argumentative nature of it, and my statements would be compromised by the need to maintain a level of harmony that would allow the interview to continue.

This would not be my scene. Period...and definitely not sustained. Our previous grievances would have to be ironed out in writing beforehand, so that when I sat down with him, the interview could be about ideas and not clarification, accusations or mixed interpretations. Harris seems more rational than feeling...very serious...all business. Moreover, he immediately goes on the offensive in the opening minutes of the interview. His interviewer is much more emotive and Harris never meets this with anything but cool resolve and rational verbiage. He NEVER warms the atmosphere...he is comfortable "in the cold". Fe will warm at least to a minimal degree.

For two guys who embrace atheism, they seem pretty far apart in their interpretations of how statements that have been made "appear" to others, or at least the interviewer does...Harris seems more concerned with his internal feelings about how he has been slandered, less concerned with how his previous statements and opinions have been interpreted in the Muslim world. There is a certain obliviousness about him I think. The interviewer tries to make him see this...that people in the Muslim world will view what he has said previously through their own personal lens of perspective. I see a cool, non-flinching rationalist here...not INFJ.

He does warm the atmosphere, just not there. When it comes to the matter he's discussing he's in the defensive position, not in that particular place but its an issue on which he has garnered immense critique. Hence, he's very careful about what he's saying so as to not be misunderstood or misrepresented.

I'm also an INFJ, and I recognize his manners in myself and in other INFJs I've seen. I speak in a very similar manner during seminars, it's a matter of not giving people a chance to write you off for reasons pertaining to your manners and person. Something which can be very important if the opinion you are advocating is controversial or just held by a minority.

Remember that Harris does this for a living, he's a public intellectual. He's used to long debates. He knows how to compose himself in such situations. I suspect he's knows he can't afford not to stay serious.

The case for him being an INTJ seems to based on the nature of his public persona, but Harris is a man who only appears in formal contexts, so it's not a decisive argument.

And moreover, on the fallacious premise that INFJs cannot or are highly unlikely to display the kind of manners which Harris does. I strongly disagree, INFJs are fully capable of being academics (btw If you look at Harris educational history you'll also see that he went the humanistic route before becoming a neuroscientist (inb4 tertiary pull)). I think some explanation is in a place as to why an INFJ could not do what Harris is doing.

Hadoblado says it's a deliberate tactic from Harris side, and that in the end he just wants to further his views and I agree. But why does that mean he's an INTJ? In fact I think he's too cunning and good at playing the social game to be an INTJ who would eventually betray his tertiary Fi by making some kind of display of passion, auxilliary Fe is a lot easier to control.

If on the other hand, we look at his body of thought, it's structured perfectly in accordance with Fe. The work he's done on The Moral Landscape, and his lectures on morals in which he claims we do have the needs to make objective moral claims which involve all humans - those in particular are highly indicative of Fe.
 

Cherry Cola

Banned
Local time
Today 11:42 AM
Joined
Mar 17, 2013
Messages
3,899
---
Location
stockholm
When it comes to moral issues hes clear sighted alrighty right....but not really. All he has is modern dogmatic mantra just like Hitchens. They dont really add any content. They are only debating the most obvious. Even three year olds can do that. +What exactly are they debating? What is so profound and intellectual about those guys? Most of the time they are debating the obvious and occasionly they go off to say something thats complete bullshit. These guys have a small cult of naive youngsters that follow them around and listen to their horseshit and go about how to be moral and atheist without really knowing even what ateisth and moral means. Maybe they think that being atheist means that automatically they have impeccable morals and they can speak on behalf of atheist or something. Well I am atheist too and I think they talk nonsense.

Except Harris stance on morals is evidently not obvious. The rest of what you wrote is just ranting. I understand that you hate the guy and the people who like him, that much is obvious and that's fine. I'm not about to enter into a perpetual debate with you on this matter because it would be pointless, you've much more passionated opinions on it than I do.

But I'm very interested in hearing why you think he's an INTP.

@Grayman: Have you ever done LSD? :P
 

TBerg

fallen angel who hasn't earned his wings
Local time
Today 5:42 AM
Joined
Oct 8, 2013
Messages
2,453
---
It's not that they are saying things so profound, but that they are saying things that should be obvious to intelligent people but are apparently lost even among the very brilliant. Academia is dominated by nihilist and relativist discourse among the most important publications, and Harris and Hitchens have been the ones to push back upon this trend in the West. They have given left-leaning secularists tools with which to defend their values and survival from all quarters of the world, sometimes Christian but overwhelmingly Muslim. There is also an anti-Western bias among the intellegensia they have sought to rectify, showing that what is shouted at protests and "peace" gatherings is extremely facile cynicism on the part of the supposed liberators of the people. "No blood for oil" and "Bush = Hitler" come immediately to mind. The extreme ignorance and disorder of the post-Western leftist mind has to be exposed. I know what I am talking about because I myself grew up among these people, embraced some of their leftist dogma, and encountered the most intimate conversations among them. I simply got tired of their lazy attacks upon Bush, the West, white people, and so on. They would not believe anything bad about anyone but Bush, the West, and white people. It was a stretch for even those of a pacifist persuasion to condemn the most murderous attacks committed by "people of color."
 

paradoxparadigm7

Well-Known Member
Local time
Today 5:42 AM
Joined
Sep 5, 2013
Messages
695
---
Location
Central Illinois
Harris reminds me of Noam Chomsky. Very even keeled, dispassionate delivery but passionate about the topic, unruffled when challenged, opinionated (obviously). I've always gotten the vibe that Chomsky is INFJ so I suppose Harris could be one too. My main point is INFJs are likely to show their passionate side in an intimate conversation but something that goes out to the public in their zeal to influence, they are not only capable but would be driven to deliver their message in as dispassionate way as possible.
 

ZenRaiden

One atom of me
Local time
Today 11:42 AM
Joined
Jul 27, 2013
Messages
5,262
---
Location
Between concrete walls
Except Harris stance on morals is evidently not obvious. The rest of what you wrote is just ranting. I understand that you hate the guy and the people who like him, that much is obvious and that's fine. I'm not about to enter into a perpetual debate with you on this matter because it would be pointless, you've much more passionated opinions on it than I do.

But I'm very interested in hearing why you think he's an INTP.

@Grayman: Have you ever done LSD? :P

Passionate opinions? No. Probably not passionate, but certainly an opinions of uselessness of such opinions he holds.

Secondly I dont think he is a INTP. But he might be who knows. When I think about it right now anyone with Ti functioning as dominant should have trouble talking such nonsense. I think that one has to take into account that he is a professional at what he is doing and typing him is therefore really hard because some of the key characteristics that people pick up on might be a result of being a professional rather than just his own personality quality. The thing is that a debater has to have certain qualities and keep to them to do his job and they might be the qualities that obscure the true MBTI.
 

ZenRaiden

One atom of me
Local time
Today 11:42 AM
Joined
Jul 27, 2013
Messages
5,262
---
Location
Between concrete walls
Harris reminds me of Noam Chomsky. Very even keeled, dispassionate delivery but passionate about the topic, unruffled when challenged, opinionated (obviously). I've always gotten the vibe that Chomsky is INFJ so I suppose Harris could be one too. My main point is INFJs are likely to show their passionate side in an intimate conversation but something that goes out to the public in their zeal to influence, they are not only capable but would be driven to deliver their message in as dispassionate way as possible.

Oh gawd. Chomsky is entirely different league from Harris.
 

paradoxparadigm7

Well-Known Member
Local time
Today 5:42 AM
Joined
Sep 5, 2013
Messages
695
---
Location
Central Illinois
Oh gawd. Chomsky is entirely different league from Harris.
I see I've muddied the waters by bringing in Chomsky. I really didn't mean that to be anything other than my own observation. Please refer to my main point.

I agree that the professional side of anyone masks who they are so trying to type a public persona can be misleading.
 

Cherry Cola

Banned
Local time
Today 11:42 AM
Joined
Mar 17, 2013
Messages
3,899
---
Location
stockholm
Harris reminds me of Noam Chomsky. Very even keeled, dispassionate delivery but passionate about the topic, unruffled when challenged, opinionated (obviously). I've always gotten the vibe that Chomsky is INFJ so I suppose Harris could be one too. My main point is INFJs are likely to show their passionate side in an intimate conversation but something that goes out to the public in their zeal to influence, they are not only capable but would be driven to deliver their message in as dispassionate way as possible.

Heh, I thought the same thing about Chomsky but I was afraid of starting another debate so I didn't mention it :P
 

Hadoblado

think again losers
Local time
Today 9:12 PM
Joined
Mar 17, 2011
Messages
7,065
---
@QT
Debate can and will change minds. Often it’s not the person you’re arguing with directly, I think it has more of an effect on observers than participants tbh. Want e-proof?

http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/

If you’ve got a powerful intuition it seems a shame to waste it on just one person. Oh well, I guess if you don’t want to actually pursue debate at all, it may be worth phrasing the things you say in a less provocative way? “This is just an opinion, I’m not really here to debate, but…”.

@TheManBeyond + GrayMan
The guy’s a neuroscientist who takes a big interest in drug-use. While the quote you snipped out doesn’t have much justification for the views it represents, I’m sure you’ll find what you’re looking for amongst his writings. Why is the Fi obvious?

@ZenRaiden
Again you’re assassinating his competence but you’re not actually saying anything about how the things he says are obvious or wrong. The things he says are enormously controversial, so even if they’re obvious to you, they still need to be said because people still disagree. Even among the atheist camp there is massive disagreement on many issues. Can you please point to something that he says that’s wrong?

@CC
Hadoblado says it's a deliberate tactic from Harris side, and that in the end he just wants to further his views and I agree. But why does that mean he's an INTJ? In fact I think he's too cunning and good at playing the social game to be an INTJ who would eventually betray his tertiary Fi by making some kind of display of passion, auxilliary Fe is a lot easier to control.

If on the other hand, we look at his body of thought, it's structured perfectly in accordance with Fe. The work he's done on The Moral Landscape, and his lectures on morals in which he claims we do have the needs to make objective moral claims which involve all humans - those in particular are highly indicative of Fe.

That doesn’t mean he’s an INTJ, it mitigates the strength of the Fe read to some degree is all. I see his behaviour as something he’s decided to do ahead of time. I see little adaptation to social circumstance. To me that’s not social cunning, that’s someone who’s studied well. But I by no means rule out other types.
 

Brontosaurie

Banned
Local time
Today 12:42 PM
Joined
Dec 4, 2010
Messages
5,646
---
ZenRaiden: quick devastating Ti rundown of why harris is fundamentally wrong please. thank you.
 

MellifluousSky

4w5 sp/sx
Local time
Today 5:42 AM
Joined
Dec 3, 2014
Messages
36
---
Location
USA
Oh gawd. Chomsky is entirely different league from Harris.
From interviews of both, I can definitely see more Fe in the body language/facial expressions of Chomsky. The 1969 interview with Buckley makes me think he is indeed INTP. He seemed keen on getting Buckley to clarify and qualify his statements...kept insisting on accurate definitions and context of what they were debating.

I can't say for sure on INTP, but I do know that you have to think about and study issues for many moons before you can be comfortable debating about them. There is a lot to know and understand. Finally, Chomsky's "transformational grammar" is Ti all the way...logical structure, order and syntax as it pertains to language...highly theoretical. He evolves his original model of Deep Structure and Surface Structure to include two additional elements (Phonetic Form and Logical Form). However, later, his new "Minimalism" would abrogate DS and SS, leaving only PF and LF. So his model evolves and is dynamic, as subjective Ti is want to do. I don't see anything denoting a deep personal cause that he is fighting for. His intellectualism seems more broadly about speaking to power, with foreign policy being of particular emphasis. In comparison to Harris, who has a focused personal cause (removing religion and replacing it with science), Chomsky's focus is more diffuse and nebulous.
 

ZenRaiden

One atom of me
Local time
Today 11:42 AM
Joined
Jul 27, 2013
Messages
5,262
---
Location
Between concrete walls
From interviews of both, I can definitely see more Fe in the body language/facial expressions of Chomsky. The 1969 interview with Buckley makes me think he is indeed INTP. He seemed keen on getting Buckley to clarify and qualify his statements...kept insisting on accurate definitions and context of what they were debating.

I can't say for sure on INTP, but I do know that you have to think about and study issues for many moons before you can be comfortable debating about them. There is a lot to know and understand. Finally, Chomsky's "transformational grammar" is Ti all the way...logical structure, order and syntax as it pertains to language...highly theoretical. He evolves his original model of Deep Structure and Surface Structure to include two additional elements (Phonetic Form and Logical Form). However, later, his new "Minimalism" would abrogate DS and SS, leaving only PF and LF. So his model evolves and is dynamic, as subjective Ti is want to do. I don't see anything denoting a deep personal cause that he is fighting for. His intellectualism seems more broadly about speaking to power, with foreign policy being of particular emphasis. In comparison to Harris, who has a focused personal cause (removing religion and replacing it with science), Chomsky's focus is more diffuse and nebulous.

I agree. Chomsky is focused on exposing the information to people in such ways that people can make judgment for themselves.
 

MellifluousSky

4w5 sp/sx
Local time
Today 5:42 AM
Joined
Dec 3, 2014
Messages
36
---
Location
USA
"Our world is driven by religious doctrines that all educated people should condemn."
“The Moral Landscape: Why Science should shape morality."


Two Fi worldview examples. In the first, he is saying that "his" view should be shared by all "educated" people. In the second he is saying that science alone should shape morality, which seems rather oblivious to how others would choose to develop their own morality. Religious followers no doubt see these two statements as divisive and will be immediately repelled by them. This will only force them to embrace more vehemently their beliefs. His is a minority opinion, considering the statistics he cites in "Letter To A Christian Nation." He proposes that the world can do without religion, that it is not necessary to construct/maintain moral laws. However, he also proposes that science can take its place and do it better. Why do we need either as the "sole" originator of moral values?


We have enough historical precedence, jurisprudence, existing moral laws and innate common sense on matters of morality. He admits as much in his observation on how slavery was abolished even though it is condoned in the Old Testament. Therefore, the moral intuitions of man prove that he can evolve and reshape his OWN opinions on what constitutes morality "that works"...i.e. a "living morality". While I believe that science can “augment” existing moral laws, it cannot prevent, for example, a leader of a third-world country from committing acts of mayhem according to his own, corrupt moral doctrine, which may have nothing to do with religion at all. In that instance, scientifically derived morality is really of no use, because the universally held “moral consensus” of mankind already holds such despotic acts in ill repute.

Science, like religion is not immune to being subverted, misinterpreted or manufactured (see intelligent design/creationism). In the end, the fault lies not purely in science or religion. The real fault is in ourselves, and the arduous maintenance of our own belief systems, which are individual and not always healthy. As stated earlier, universal moral laws are driven by consensus and debate. They are amended or excised in ways to make them more effective or remove them if they become untenable. Again, this only happens by consensus. These laws must be egalitarian enough to attenuate opinions that they are zero-sum in nature, else the "well-being" of some, will come at the expense of the "well-being" of others. For example, even if science and statistics determined that universal healthcare was a moral imperative, there is still the rational/logical issues to consider (whether it is economically feasible).


However, an even bigger problem is that even if it could be shown that the "happiness and well-being" of the entire nation could be improved by universal health care, there are those in unique positions to subvert the process and the message, causing many to retain unwarranted/uneducated opinions of it. The mind is the problem, not religion or science. You cannot totally eradicate ignorance, blind hate, lack of intelligence, irrationality, confirmation-bias or biased assimilation from the equation. This is the problem with what Harris wants to export...especially to Islamic nations.


I am curious why he doesn't just promote Jainism rather than science as a means of a more forward thinking well-spring for a more compassionate and inclusive morality. Perhaps it is the ascetic nature of it, which might not sit so well with Americans and capitalism in general. However, it does seem much more benign, benevolent and forward-thinking than more popular religions. He uses Jainism's precepts to draw satirical distinctions between it, Christianity and Islam, but his personal "worldview" is that scientists should have a monopoly on universal morality. His dissertations are emphatically iconoclastic … laced with either insinuations or outright pronouncements of stupidity and condescension with regards to religion. Harris doesn't really care about how his negative views on religion (as a moral precedent) come across in the wider world, “especially” where Islam is concerned (Christianity as well). As such, I don't see a lot of Fe there.


I see Harris as attempting to export his personal worldview as the only alternative for devising morality in the absence of religion, which he clearly believes is grossly incapable of performing such a function rationally, compassionately and with well-being as its ultimate goal. He does not simply say that religion is bad and should be eviscerated, he goes further and offers science as an alternative that "should" supplant it. I see his use of love and hate as objects in his equation of happiness/well-being, not as something inherently Idealist in nature. His study of philosophy, especially Buddhism shows here. He comes at this issue of morality from an intensely rational and combative standpoint. His pontifications and “implied stupidity" do as much to convince me of this as his impersonal anecdotes and statistics, which are questionable.


If I had to type Harris using the Enneagram, I would put him at 5w6, assuming he is an introvert. He does not look particularly reactive at all, which would rule out 4, 6 and 8 as E types. If he is INFJ, then he is certainly not a 4 or a 9, and that leaves only 6 (6w5). He seems completely comfortable with confrontation and thinks well on his feet. I have not encountered any moments where he appears to be really flustered by the opposition, which might just show his extensive knowledge of the subject matter. He does seem particularly concerned with security and the martial arts, which are prototypically E6 traits. Enneagram 5w6 usually corresponds very well with INTJ. I am not completely sure of this, but I will study him some more. He certainly is an iconoclast, in every sense of the word. As such, he is on the fringe of popular held opinions/beliefs and he is content to be so. That is the realm of Enneagram 5 without doubt, and that is where you will usually find INTP and INTJ. I actually had a dream about him as some sort of anti-Christ after falling asleep on one of his debates on YouTube.


I will say for the record, that I believe what Harris is doing is warranted, although I don't totally agree with his methodology or science as some omniscient "moral factory". There are those like Reza Aslan who seem to want to create moral equivalencies along the lines of the violent history associated with both Christianity and Islam. But this falls flat on its face when we examine the nature of civility in America vs. Islamic countries. Our moral intuitions, experiences, and history have moved us away from the Abrahamic views that dominate the Old Testament. Islam, on the other hand is a much younger religion that is situated in countries that are not as well developed, either culturally or economically. Moreover, their moral values remain steeped in Sharia law, which is completely incompatible with secular and western democracies. This is the crux of Harris' argument against Islam...that it has not really evolved (morally) past some primitive, odious and hideous tenets. If 50% of the people in Islamic countries agree with the death penalty as the consequence for leaving Islam, then yes, I would say that Islam has a serious problem...with both its own people and the wider world.
 

Cherry Cola

Banned
Local time
Today 11:42 AM
Joined
Mar 17, 2013
Messages
3,899
---
Location
stockholm
"Our world is driven by religious doctrines that all educated people should condemn."
“The Moral Landscape: Why Science should shape morality."


Two Fi worldview examples. In the first, he is saying that "his" view should be shared by all "educated" people.

Ergo Fe, not Fi.
 

TBerg

fallen angel who hasn't earned his wings
Local time
Today 5:42 AM
Joined
Oct 8, 2013
Messages
2,453
---
How can people not know what Fe is when Sam Harris uses it all the time to gauge public reaction and respond in a socially appropriate manner consistent with his empathetic understanding? How is it possible that his Fi protrudes out of him when he never pronounces his values and goals with passionate poetry? Compare his style with human rights activists, who bleed Fi all over the place, and you will see how there is not even a hint of it. And then compare his style to a dry commanding pronouncement of policy entailed in Te, which is attributed to INTJs. He argues with people with an eye to their feelings and the social implications of the argument but does not hold to a certain dogmatic laying down of the law. It is not like he is a legal scholar drawing us a formal structure for a morality. He explicitly acknowledges certain relativism in the peaks and valleys of human wellbeing that do not need formal outlines. The simple acknowledgement of the peaks and valleys, meaning understanding that some are better than others, is enough. This is Fe acknowledgement of the general human condition and not an assertion of personal values. He explicitly disowns a parochial or personal vision of how the world should work and offers instead a way of understanding how social values can change for the better or worse according to an understanding of human wellbeing that can be debated.
 

Grayman

Soul Shade
Local time
Today 3:42 AM
Joined
Jan 8, 2013
Messages
4,418
---
Location
You basement
I care little for what he actually is... what is most interesting is what each of you see in him. This has been a good thread for me even if not for the MBTI debate itself.

If we all didnt see different things in him, I wonder if it would have been easier to agree on what he is.
 

MellifluousSky

4w5 sp/sx
Local time
Today 5:42 AM
Joined
Dec 3, 2014
Messages
36
---
Location
USA
How can people not know what Fe is when Sam Harris uses it all the time to gauge public reaction and respond in a socially appropriate manner consistent with his empathetic understanding? How is it possible that his Fi protrudes out of him when he never pronounces his values and goals with passionate poetry? Compare his style with human rights activists, who bleed Fi all over the place, and you will see how there is not even a hint of it. And then compare his style to a dry commanding pronouncement of policy entailed in Te, which is attributed to INTJs. He argues with people with an eye to their feelings and the social implications of the argument but does not hold to a certain dogmatic laying down of the law. It is not like he is a legal scholar drawing us a formal structure for a morality. He explicitly acknowledges certain relativism in the peaks and valleys of human wellbeing that do not need formal outlines. The simple acknowledgement of the peaks and valleys, meaning understanding that some are better than others, is enough. This is Fe acknowledgement of the general human condition and not an assertion of personal values. He explicitly disowns a parochial or personal vision of how the world should work and offers instead a way of understanding how social values can change for the better or worse according to an understanding of human wellbeing that can be debated.

If you watch Harris against Ben Affleck (ENFJ), you really get to see what Fe looks like up close. An NF Idealist who is absolutely enraged by what Harris is disseminating about Islam. Affleck could not contain his contempt, especially with Harris' not so subtle insinuation that Liberals have sat on the sidelines for too long, without calling a spade a spade. Now this alone hardly precludes Harris being an Idealist (INFJ) himself, but given his iconoclastic bent, INTP and INTJ cannot be ruled out. His publicly cultivated persona clouds the issue. CelebrityTypes does see him as INFJ, but what the heck, I'm iconoclastic like that.
 

QuickTwist

Spiritual "Woo"
Local time
Today 5:42 AM
Joined
Jan 24, 2013
Messages
7,182
---
Location
...

Cherry Cola

Banned
Local time
Today 11:42 AM
Joined
Mar 17, 2013
Messages
3,899
---
Location
stockholm
How can people not know what Fe is when Sam Harris uses it all the time to gauge public reaction and respond in a socially appropriate manner consistent with his empathetic understanding? How is it possible that his Fi protrudes out of him when he never pronounces his values and goals with passionate poetry? Compare his style with human rights activists, who bleed Fi all over the place, and you will see how there is not even a hint of it. And then compare his style to a dry commanding pronouncement of policy entailed in Te, which is attributed to INTJs. He argues with people with an eye to their feelings and the social implications of the argument but does not hold to a certain dogmatic laying down of the law. It is not like he is a legal scholar drawing us a formal structure for a morality. He explicitly acknowledges certain relativism in the peaks and valleys of human wellbeing that do not need formal outlines. The simple acknowledgement of the peaks and valleys, meaning understanding that some are better than others, is enough. This is Fe acknowledgement of the general human condition and not an assertion of personal values. He explicitly disowns a parochial or personal vision of how the world should work and offers instead a way of understanding how social values can change for the better or worse according to an understanding of human wellbeing that can be debated.

Precisely.
 

QuickTwist

Spiritual "Woo"
Local time
Today 5:42 AM
Joined
Jan 24, 2013
Messages
7,182
---
Location
...
I have yet to see a summary of his core beliefs. TBH I only watched about 36 minutes of the first video to get a feel for him so I could try and type him just for the helluvit. But type aside (I don't honestly care, but other people do) what is he saying and if his moral compass is applied universally what will be the pro's and con's of such a system? In other words, how will it trickle down to to the less educated over time? And primarily what are the chances of what he believes being accepted by the public, either the well educated or not?
 

Hadoblado

think again losers
Local time
Today 9:12 PM
Joined
Mar 17, 2011
Messages
7,065
---
I have yet to see a summary of his core beliefs. TBH I only watched about 36 minutes of the first video to get a feel for him so I could try and type him just for the helluvit. But type aside (I don't honestly care, but other people do) what is he saying and if his moral compass is applied universally what will be the pro's and con's of such a system? In other words, how will it trickle down to to the less educated over time? And primarily what are the chances of what he believes being accepted by the public, either the well educated or not?

Off the top of my head?

Essentially that misinformation breeds misbehaviour.

also
- monism
- lying is wrong under any circumstance
- torture could be alright in some circumstances
- nuking islam might be a good idea
- drugs are only as bad as their adverse side affects, and the benefits are under-acknowledged
- core beliefs that are wrong are to blame for extremist behaviour, even if that behaviour isn't represented in moderates
- spiritualism =/= religion, you can be scientifically minded and spiritual
- meditation yay
- liberals are typically so invested in being politically correct that they're often unable address issues critically if it means potentially looking bigoted

But, this is not the sort of list that you tick off - agree, agree, disagree... etc. He justifies his views extensively, and while I might not agree with every single thing, it'd be a mistake to dismiss him based on a superficial glance through.
 

TBerg

fallen angel who hasn't earned his wings
Local time
Today 5:42 AM
Joined
Oct 8, 2013
Messages
2,453
---
The nuclear first strike doctrine applies only to a jihadist with a nuclear be. It is not to be used against Muslims as a whole.
 

Hadoblado

think again losers
Local time
Today 9:12 PM
Joined
Mar 17, 2011
Messages
7,065
---
Dunt go making stuff sound sensible!
 

MellifluousSky

4w5 sp/sx
Local time
Today 5:42 AM
Joined
Dec 3, 2014
Messages
36
---
Location
USA
Off the top of my head?

Essentially that misinformation breeds misbehaviour.

also
- monism
- lying is wrong under any circumstance
- torture could be alright in some circumstances
- nuking islam might be a good idea
- drugs are only as bad as their adverse side affects, and the benefits are under-acknowledged
- core beliefs that are wrong are to blame for extremist behaviour, even if that behaviour isn't represented in moderates
- spiritualism =/= religion, you can be scientifically minded and spiritual
- meditation yay
- liberals are typically so invested in being politically correct that they're often unable address issues critically if it means potentially looking bigoted

But, this is not the sort of list that you tick off - agree, agree, disagree... etc. He justifies his views extensively, and while I might not agree with every single thing, it'd be a mistake to dismiss him based on a superficial glance through.
It would also appear that Harris has a tiny problem with the 1st Amendment:
I hope to show that the very idea of religious tolerance—born of the notion that every human being should be free to believe whatever he wants about God—is one of the principle forces driving us towards the abyss”.

"Given the link between belief and action, it is clear that we can no more tolerate a diversity of religious beliefs than a diversity of beliefs about epidemiology and basic hygiene...Do we "tolerate" these beliefs? Not if they put our own health in jeopardy."
"We can say it even more simply...we need a World government."

"We will see that the greatest problem confronting civilization is not merely religious extremism: rather, it is the larger set of cultural and intellectual accommodations we have made to faith itself. Religious moderates are, in large part, responsible for the religious conflict in our world, because their beliefs provide the context in which scriptural literalism and religious violence can never be adequately opposed."

Refers to the Holy Eucharist as "a cracker".

"The link between belief and behavior raises the stakes completely. Some propositions are so dangerous that it may even be ethical to kill people for believing in them".

"The only thing that seems likely to persuade most Muslims that their worldview is problematic is the demonstrable failure of their societies".

"We are at war with Islam".

The aforementioned statements from "The End Of Faith", don't seem particularly NF Idealist in nature. Harris is preaching intolerance whether or not he chooses to acknowledge it. He is advocating a suspension of the 1st Amendment and ethical killing because of personal beliefs. I wonder who gets to stand judge and jury on what constitutes beliefs that require "elimination".

Harris seems particularly concerned with worse-case scenarios (Enneagram 6 phobia/counter-phobia) and makes more than a few throughout his book. It has a distinct either-or, black-or-white theme that permeates from start to finish. He does not care much for Chomsky, is pro-war/torture, and believes that somehow the complete failure of Muslim societies will somehow make them "see the light".

The more I study this guy, the less I see him as an NF. Dr. A.J. Drenth (personality junkie) types him as INTP, along with Chomsky. I certainly agree on Chomsky, due to his overtly apparent Si and his linguistics theories.

 

nanook

a scream in a vortex
Local time
Today 12:42 PM
Joined
Aug 16, 2011
Messages
2,026
---
Location
germany
He doesn't take the democratic principle into account. If a majority of the population was rational, it would be justified to prioritize their subjective concerns (such as "disease is bad, therefore hygiene is a priority") over the subjective concerns of a pre-rational population ("washing diseased & deceased people is an important emotional gesture"). Even though the rational point of view is practically superior to the pre-rational view, despite being equally subjective (practicality is a subjective concern), enforcing it on a pre-rational population requires violence, which is not even a rational method of dialogue. Democracy is a rational method of dialogue. As painful as it is. But the antagonist of the rational individual's concerns is neither democracy, nor religion, it's the painful fact, that only a minority of the worldwide population has arrived at a rational or a higher stage of evolution. And the believes that people hold are the expression of neurological capabilities.

Sam Harris is not even an integral thinker, albeit he has some limited Integral potential here and there. Not one of the biggest thinkers of our times. He tries to back up his subjective democratic self-interest with objective sounding arguments (I hope to "show", that my way is the highway). Frankly this disqualifies him as a philosopher. He's an effective lobbyist though. Agitators of public thought aren't an all bad thing, albeit a catalyser of true understanding could be more valuable, if anyone had the attention span, to listen to them. It's too bad, that you have to hit neurotypical extroverts with a hammer, to make them reflect on their ways at all.
 
Top Bottom