TOXIC MASCULINITY

[crippli]

Nev to me. What is it?

 

[Deleted member 1424]

It's when your body synthesizes a slightly modified version of testosterone that causes cascading organ failure and death.

 

[xDarkAngelx]

"slightly modified version of testosterone" is that really a scientific thing???

 

[onesteptwostep]

It's the edgy way of saying 'that guy is an asshole'. Nothing more to add.

 

[Hadoblado]

Expectations of boys and men that result in them harming themselves and others.

A gentle example would be the pressure for men to not express emotions, resulting in obstacles to communication. A more insidious example would be the pressure for young men to have sex resulting in risky or aggressive sexual behaviour.

 

[Black Rose]

 

[Cognisant]

Masculinity is dead, toxic masculinity is now just a label for anything a man does that a woman doesn't like, it no longer has any real meaning.

 

[Black Rose]

cog so woke

 

[Deleted member 1424]

"slightly modified version of testosterone" is that really a scientific thing???

Yeah, it's missing a carbon and four hydrogen. In non-lethal cases it can make you grow breasts and have feelings. It's a tragic prognosis!

 

[EndogenousRebel]

It's a over simplification of various psychosociological phenomena condensed into one term. Overtly simplifying because it usually connects the problem to one origin and one solution.

I personally think it's a very real thing, but honestly it would be solved with philosophical and ethics classes, not a radical rethinking of gender.

 

[Cognisant]

cog so woke

No Hado is woke I'm post woke.

It's when your body synthesizes a slightly modified version of testosterone that causes cascading organ failure and death.

I thought that was the regular kind, hence why statistically men die younger than women even accounting for young men engaging in life threatening behaviour, although that's also a symptom of testosterone poisoning.

 

[Black Rose]

"slightly modified version of testosterone" is that really a scientific thing???

Yeah, it's missing a carbon and four hydrogen. In non-lethal cases it can make you grow breasts and have feelings. It's a tragic prognosis!

estrogen?

 

[Deleted member 1424]

I hope y'all know I've been playin'. 'Toxic' is such a toxic buzzword.

More seriously the largest effect I know of is that testosterone weakens immune function. This has many net negative and net positive effects. You rarely see men with auto-immune disorders for example. I think it generally increases oxidative stress, but I don't really remember. The systems are complicated.


Anyway, nice catch AK!

 

[Hadoblado]

Some people might use it to mean things they don't like. These people are idiots. Don't let the existence of idiots facilitate a straw man.

There are positive elements to masculinity too. Men are more assertive and resolve conflict faster without letting it fester. We're more likely to take risks but a lot of contexts require risk-taking (it's just people tend to be blind to this). In child-rearing, women tend to be more caring, but men tend to be more playful (these are all descriptive statements, not prescriptive).

I work in a woman-centric sector, and I push hard to hire more men because I think they have a lot of value to bring to the table. I'm unironically a men's rights activist and I mentor men to traverse a hostile work environment that treats them like shit. This issue is quite personal for me, I'm not just being woke.

I see the concept of toxic masculinity as the correct observation that men statistically have a lot of emotional and behavioural issues when compared to women (look at the crime rates), and that there are a lot of direct lines between the differences between the expectations for males and females, and the differences in the way they feel and act. Rather than hand-waving it as some intrinsic immutable attribute that cannot be addressed, the categorisation of toxic masculinity approaches the issue from a practical, problem-solving perspective.

 

[Black Rose]

masculinity when taken to the extreme becomes toxic but then the he-man thing is now considered toxic. is he-man "too masculine"? The HULK's muscle mass is fuelled by anger from seeing his mother murdered by his father. is bruce banner "too masculine"?

 

[Deleted member 1424]

I doubt anyone since the 80s has ever honestly looked at he-man and thought 'masculine' first. The namesake just confuses people. The bob, the harness, the speedo. The barbarian action hero aesthetic hasn't been masculine in a long time. It's almost like these concepts are mostly constructed and like a word repeated over and over again; meaningless when broken down. When masculinity has to define itself in opposition to femininity; (which is most of the time) the points being made become sus imo.

or pollution is turning everyone into a lady. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Hadoblado]

masculinity when taken to the extreme becomes toxic but then the he-man thing is now considered toxic. is he-man "too masculine"? The HULK's muscle mass is fuelled by anger from seeing his mother murdered by his father. is bruce banner "too masculine"?

I don't see it this way. Toxic masculinity is not "more" masculine or "too" masculine. It's nothing to do with that.

Certain aspects of normative behaviour is toxic, and some of these prescriptions are targeted at males in particular. So maybe the Hulk deals with his trauma and grief through anger, but it's only toxic masculinity to the extent that society tells him to do so. Even then, depending on the writer, Hulk channels that anger in different ways. So the rapist cannibal version of the hulk is perhaps more toxic (again depending on the extent to which it is the impulsive execution of socially instilled norms), but the version that saves the day is probably fine. It's not toxic masculinity to be muscly or angry.

I think it might be better to discuss gender prescriptivism in general, rather than specifically toxic masculinity. Tox masc is a buzzword that has been politicised and as such people tend to approach it with a skewed lens. Is it good to prescribe behaviours based on gender and if so which ones are adaptive/maladaptive?

 

[Cognisant]

masculinity when taken to the extreme becomes toxic but then the he-man thing is now considered toxic. is he-man "too masculine"? The HULK's muscle mass is fuelled by anger from seeing his mother murdered by his father. is bruce banner "too masculine"?

Which neatly segues back into my point, that toxic masculinity is a meaningless term because it’s seemingly impossible to come up with a definition of masculinity that isn’t going to be called toxic and when all masculinity is toxic none of it is, it’s just masculinity.

I’m not saying this absolves terrible people of responsibility for the terrible things they do or that the things they do aren’t terrible, rather in practical terms when someone is being toxic you can’t effectually call them out on it because they don’t care, nobody cares.

It’s like blaming and punishing all men for the existence of rapists until a rape occurs and the men who could have intervened ignore it and when asked “why didn’t you stop this” they reply “she ought to have known better; why do you think we should put ourselves in danger?”

It’s not that they condone it but when men are forced to wear the millstone of toxic masculinity or for the existence of rapists it changes their perception of what it means to be a man, they take no pride in it and consequently no issue in other men’s shameful behaviour.

I think if we as a society want to put a stop to toxic masculinity we need to stop shaming all men for it and instead celebrate those who aren’t toxic, to which the typical reply is to say “do you want a cookie?” to belittle us and the typical retort is “men shouldn’t need to be encouraged to do the right thing they should just do it because it’s right” and indeed that’s true but a men shouldn’t need encouragement to do the right thing because they should already be doing it and already be encouraged for it.

Heck the word “encourage” literally means to give courage to someone and we want a society in which men are courageous enough to stand up for our ethical standards, is it really so hard to see the connection?

People can't relate to He-Man anymore, our heroes are flawed and bitter and often reviled by the very same people they protect, why do you think Batman, Ironman and Spiderman are so popular?

That's what modern audiences relate to.

 

[Hadoblado]

toxic masculinity is a meaningless term because it’s seemingly impossible to come up with a definition of masculinity that isn’t going to be called toxic and when all masculinity is toxic none of it is, it’s just masculinity.

google -> define masculinity -> first result

 

[EndogenousRebel]

Toxic masculinity is a thing. It is also true that toxic femininity exists. However their existence is pretty much 0.09% because of gender, and more to do with human nature, mainly opportunism. If we have a greater opportunity to do something with less negative consequences then it is more likely that is done.

The average man doesn't have worry about the average woman physically harming him. Ergo they feel more comfortable exerting their whims, like talking shit or worse. Societal expectations have done a good job in ensuring that doing such things is looked down upon. Some people even refuse to lay a hand on a woman bar none. The "game" unbalanced physically is "balanced" psychosocially and legally. Unilaterally though, not so much.

Some women know the above, and feel entitled to abuse this "feature" because they have the opportunity to get away with it. Traditionally speaking, especially in less European cultures, woman are also seen as something to care for and protect. Things like sugar babies exist who produce little to nothing and rely solely on a provider. Good for them, it's a bug I think hardly anyone can or cares to fix, but they sacrifice ever developing skills beyond social manipulation... Which, well....

Of course everything isn't cut and dry, some men will lay out a woman if they cross certain boundaries, which isn't against the law, and sugar babies are looked down on by a lot of people including women. Honestly, we're just in a place where the pendulum of power is dependent on the situation most of the time, as it should be. Public perceptions have always been garbage, most people see what they want to believe so when a mob forms around a certain situation, impressionable people lose clarity of the situation and form thoughts tangent to the closest narrative to them.

I don't know if there is something beyond opportunism that explains toxic gender manifestations I would like to know.

 

[Cognisant]

toxic masculinity is a meaningless term because it’s seemingly impossible to come up with a definition of masculinity that isn’t going to be called toxic and when all masculinity is toxic none of it is, it’s just masculinity.

google -> define masculinity -> first result

Uh-huh and "toxic masculinity" is about men who have toxin glands.

Spoiler

 

[scorpiomover]

Nev to me. What is it?

4th wave feminism

Came around in the 2010s, about the same time as we started hearing about "toxic masculinity".

Expectations of boys and men that result in them harming themselves and others.

That's the typical online description.

A gentle example would be the pressure for men to not express emotions, resulting in obstacles to communication.

That's also usually written as an example of toxic masculinity.

Lots of scientific studies have consistently shown that it's extremely harmful to not exert control over whe, how and with who you express your emotions. Examples of men expressing their emotions freely, is when men hit people who annoy them, like when their wife has annoyed them.

It's also been shown that people who have been given the impression that they do not have a right to ever express their emotions, and have also been given the impression that they do not have the right to even feel those emotions, suffer a lot of problems by suppressing their emotions, and so do their families.

E.G. hearing that "all men are potential rapists" really doesn't make a man feel like it's OK for him to feel horny.

E.G. men who cannot admit weakness, even to the point of not asking for help, because they are afraid that if their girlfriend sees them being scared or lacking confidence about something, she would lose respect for him, think he's a wimp, become completely turned off by him, and start f**king other guys.

A more insidious example would be the pressure for young men to have sex resulting in risky or aggressive sexual behaviour.

1) The challenge for young men is that they are frequently told that:
(a) sex is GREAT, and one of the most pleasurable experiences a man can have,
(b) women can have sex any time they want,
(c) they should consider themselves lucky if ANY woman is willing to sleep with them.
As such, that paints sex for men as something very much in demand but very short on supply, and so they've got to grab every opportunity they can.

2) Another pressure is "friend-zoning". In traditional masculine culture, men would take it slow with a girl they liked, which you can see in the film "The Quiet Man", played by John Wayne, a classical male. But in today's modern culture, connections between men and woman that don't translate quickly into sex, tend to be described by the woman as that they're "just friends", leaving the man often very hurt.

The simplest way to resolve the unnecessary pain and suffering would be to have an honest heart-to-heart with the woman talking openly and honestly about her feelings.

However, failing honest and forthright communication with women who have friend-zoned men, the most practical solution is to hit on women right away. Those who respond positively, become girlfriends. Those who respond negatively, have now settled the matter that there is no chance for a relationship before the man has the time to develop feelings of love and affection for the woman and get hurt by the rejection.

3) Another issue is that generally, women tend to speak about men they've had any form of sex with, as an "ex", but men they've been extremely emotionally intimiate with but haven't had sex with, are not described as "ex"es, which sets the tone of the definition of a relationship with a woman, and who it is fair to have feelings for, by whether the man and woman have had sex or not.

Societal pressures thus dicate that it's invalid to have feelings for a woman, unless the man has had sex with her.

Moreover, if a man has feelings for a woman who he has not had sex with, the assumption is that he has nefarious designs on the woman to take advantage of her. If he and she are supposed to be friends, him having feelings for her is called "creepy" as a result, as if he is waiting until her guard is down before he pounces on her.

4) Then there's the fact that with the removal of social etiquette, there's no formal process for men to meet single women where they can expect that at least one of them would be willing and suitable for a relationship and/or marriage. Men have almost zero education on how to get a girlfriend, or anything like that.

So their hormones are screaming "Breed! Breed!", while their brains are saying "But we don't know what to do!" In the majority, hormones win, and most males do what they can to get a girlfriend, even if it means sometimes doing stuff that might get them thrown in prison.

A significant minority go the other way, avoid engaging in dating, retreat from life in general, and tend to become significantly unproductive compared to their skills and abilities.

Summary:
So all of this and more, is providing lots of environmental and thus evolutionary pressures towards certain obvious outcomes.

Changing the outcomes means removing the environmental pressures.

 

[Grayman]

Some people might use it to mean things they don't like. These people are idiots. Don't let the existence of idiots facilitate a straw man.

There are positive elements to masculinity too. Men are more assertive and resolve conflict faster without letting it fester. We're more likely to take risks but a lot of contexts require risk-taking (it's just people tend to be blind to this). In child-rearing, women tend to be more caring, but men tend to be more playful (these are all descriptive statements, not prescriptive).

I work in a woman-centric sector, and I push hard to hire more men because I think they have a lot of value to bring to the table. I'm unironically a men's rights activist and I mentor men to traverse a hostile work environment that treats them like shit. This issue is quite personal for me, I'm not just being woke.

I see the concept of toxic masculinity as the correct observation that men statistically have a lot of emotional and behavioural issues when compared to women (look at the crime rates), and that there are a lot of direct lines between the differences between the expectations for males and females, and the differences in the way they feel and act. Rather than hand-waving it as some intrinsic immutable attribute that cannot be addressed, the categorisation of toxic masculinity approaches the issue from a practical, problem-solving perspective.

It was and isn't really intended to address common male issues. There is a reason why there isn't a term "toxic feminity" going around and getting track. These kind of terms are intended and is used as a pejorative to put down a group of people. They are not intended to constructively address functional issues within society or in individuals who deal with them.

People who are honestly trying to address the issues that men face, which women can be facing also btw, usually address the issue itself directly. They will address how the lack of communication and bottling up your emotions is problematic while never ever using the term "toxic masculinity".

 

[Hadoblado]

It was and isn't really intended to address common male issues. There is a reason why there isn't a term "toxic feminity" going around and getting track. These kind of terms are intended and is used as a pejorative to put down a group of people. They are not intended to constructively address functional issues within society or in individuals who deal with them.

People who are honestly trying to address the issues that men face, which women can be facing also btw, usually address the issue itself directly. They will address how the lack of communication and bottling up your emotions is problematic while never ever using the term "toxic masculinity".

What are you basing this on?

My understanding is that the term originated as part of a men's movement in the context of self-help. So use within a group, not as part of an in-group/out-group function, and literally the definition of being intended to address common male issues.

Also as I mentioned earlier, I am someone honestly trying to address the issues men face, and while I don't use the term toxic masculinity because I don't want to invoke political outrage, it's an accurate descriptor of a lot of the things I help men with.

 

[BurnedOut]

Toxic masculinity is not only metaphorically toxic with regards to the behavioural aspect but also literally toxic to their health, for example, due to the common stereotypes of men having more mettle than water in the ocean causes them to be at a serious loss when it comes to grieving after relationships ending because other men, their friends and relatives, are too harsh with them. This causes men to indulge in substance abuse more often than females who end up venting to their social circles which are greater in number as compared to men's.

 

[BurnedOut]

There is a reason why there isn't a term "toxic feminity" going around and getting track.

There should be as a matter of fact. The movie Mean Girls contains several instances of toxic feminity. Hyperfeminity is actually a term that is used to describe females who have extreme feminine (institutionalized) tendencies but just like toxic masculine men, they display antisocial traits and aggressiveness and unhealthy amounts of competitiveness among their peers.

 

[Grayman]

It was and isn't really intended to address common male issues. There is a reason why there isn't a term "toxic feminity" going around and getting track. These kind of terms are intended and is used as a pejorative to put down a group of people. They are not intended to constructively address functional issues within society or in individuals who deal with them.

People who are honestly trying to address the issues that men face, which women can be facing also btw, usually address the issue itself directly. They will address how the lack of communication and bottling up your emotions is problematic while never ever using the term "toxic masculinity".

Also as I mentioned earlier, I am someone honestly trying to address the issues men face, and while I don't use the term toxic masculinity because I don't want to invoke political outrage, it's an accurate descriptor of a lot of the things I help men with.

That's because masculinity isn't the issue. It's the failure of fathers and society to help boys be men. Too many people who use that term, view masculinity itself as toxic. They try to make men more 'feminine' as if masculine is bad and feminine is good. Many many boys are already dealing with a lack of confidence and self hatred.
Expecting men to stop being men and instead act more like women, is just another pull into that self hatred as it leads them into more failure.
They don't need to worry about toxic masculinity. They just need the ignorance of how to be masculine to be wiped away. They need help and examples of how to be masculine. They need experience. They need a masculine value system fostered and promoted by society to help guide them.