Ti-Si vs Ne-Fe loops = Jung's "Psychic progression" vs "Psychic regression" ?

[DIALECTIC]

​According to Jung, in order to achieve self-realization people must adapt to both their external and their internal worlds.

Progression involves adaptation to the outside world and the forward flow of psychic energy, whereas regression refers to adaptation to the inner world and the backward flow of psychic energy. Jung believed that the backward step is essential to a person's forward movement toward self-realization.

Now i find our "Ne-Fe" loop (ie: ideation & passion) being identical to such a PROGRESSION, while the "Ti-Si" loop (ie: self-analysis & introspection) being identical to REGRESSION...

In fact, such progression may be best described as hypomania / mania, while the regression part may be best described as depression, both being difficult to get out of just like some sort of "demonic possession" ! Yet both are equally necessary in the long run, even though the depressive / melancholic Ti-Si loop is anything but pleasant...

I would like to have your view about it ?

 

[DelusiveNinja]

​According to Jung, in order to achieve self-realization people must adapt to both their external and their internal worlds.

Progression involves adaptation to the outside world and the forward flow of psychic energy, whereas regression refers to adaptation to the inner world and the backward flow of psychic energy. Jung believed that the backward step is essential to a person's forward movement toward self-realization.

Regression:
http://www.jungny.com/lexicon.jungian.therapy.analysis/carl.jung.168.html

Progression:
http://www.jungny.com/lexicon.jungian.therapy.analysis/carl.jung.150.html

Now i find our "Ne-Fe" loop (ie: ideation & passion) being identical to such a PROGRESSION, while the "Ti-Si" loop (ie: self-analysis & introspection) being identical to REGRESSION...

From what I understand this piece of information from the second link is relevant here:

Progression is a forwards movement of life in the same sense that time moves forwards. This movement can occur in two different forms: either extraverted, when the progression is predominantly influenced by objects and environmental conditions, or introverted, when it has to adapt itself to the conditions of the ego (or, more accurately, of the "subjective factor"). Similarly, regression can proceed along two lines: either as a retreat from the outside world (introversion), or as a flight into extravagant experience of the outside world (extraversion). Failure in the first case drives a man into a state of dull brooding, and in the second case into leading the life of a wastrel. ["On Psychic Energy," Ibid, par. 77.]

In fact, such progression may be best described as hypomania / mania, while the regression part may be best described as depression, both being difficult to get out of just like some sort of "demonic possession" ! Yet both are equally necessary in the long run, even though the depressive / melancholic Ti-Si loop is anything but pleasant...

I disagree, for right now, with hypomania/mania being related to progression, since I experience something similar to the descriptions of hypomania but such experiences only happen when the social norm isn't pressuring me to act a certain way. The fact that I can direct the energy that I have toward pieces of information and produce ideas, possibilities, and theories that are relevant, puts me in disbelief. According to the links above, neurosis most accurately describes it.
Neurosis: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurosis

I also believe that while Ti-Si is looking back, an INTP maybe "building up psychic energy" to be released via extroverted functions, mostly Fe. This is by far more unpleasant than simply mulling over past details because it is possible to embarrass yourself by reaching out to the people around you.

 

[DelusiveNinja]

In fact, such progression may be best described as hypomania / mania, while the regression part may be best described as depression, both being difficult to get out of just like some sort of "demonic possession" !

Would this sentence be referring to all types, just INTPs, or Ne users (with Ne present as their Dominant, Auxiliary, or Tertiary function)?

 

[DIALECTIC]

I disagree, for right now, with hypomania/mania being related to progression, since I experience something similar to the descriptions of hypomania but such experiences only happen when the social norm isn't pressuring me to act a certain way. The fact that I can direct the energy that I have toward pieces of information and produce ideas, possibilities, and theories that are relevant, puts me in disbelief. According to the links above, neurosis most accurately describes it.
Neurosis: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurosis

Neurotic / hypomanic / manic, pretty much the same thing to me, it is just a matter of semantics really... Hypomania / mania being the actual "feeling state" of a / or several neurosis... I never really felt my neurosis (others, i.e my "victims" felt them though !!!) until i reached my early 30s, however i did feel the invincible power of hypomania / mania ("the God mode") until then !!! And to be honest i do miss it in a way but i realize i couldn't sustain hypomania / mania nowadays as id end up going into a nuthouse ! Must be why, usually, serious mental illness starts in the 30´s, rarely earlier...

Neurosis are just as "abnormal" psychic behaviour as hypomania / mania, they allow us to transcend our limitations / unsecurities ! That's been my personal experience anyway so i guess i can universalize...

Also, with age (i will turn 40 in November) my neurosis are disappearing which in a way makes me A LOT happier in myself and a lot more relaxed in general, but also a lot more vulnerable from neurotic environments (hence why i isolate more and more), the same way a child would be until he becomes a teenager who slowly gets "contaminated" by the neurosis of his parents / family / educators and develop some of his own neurosis too...
However, neurosis in the first part of life are like "secret weapons" we develop in a way to face our neurotic society, the problem is when neurosis don ´t disappear when entering the 2nd part of life, that's when body and health issues...

"Everything great in the world comes from neurotics. They alone have founded our religions and composed our masterpieces. Never will the world be aware of how much it owes to them, nor above all what they have suffered in order to bestow their gifts on it."
Marcel Proust

Also, while until my mid 30's i pretty much lived in a near permanent state of what can be best described as hypomania / mania (with all the crazes that come with it including aggression, hypersexuality, wrecklessness etc.) which to me can be symbolized by the infamous Ne-Te loop of Ideation & Emotion, as im getting older i experience far more Ti-Si loops than Ne-Fe loops, leading me to be more self-analytical and conscious than even, my aggression/wrecklessness has totally disappeared so did my sexdrive !
I do remember Jung said from about 35 or 40 until old age is a time when people should be adopting an introverted, or subjective attitude...

I also believe that while Ti-Si is looking back, an INTP maybe "building up psychic energy" to be released via extroverted functions, mostly Fe. This is by far more unpleasant than simply mulling over past details because it is possible to embarrass yourself by reaching out to the people around you.

Yes you're right because sadly i did embarrass myself too many times in my life because of an inferior / immature Fe, however id rather have the embarassment than the regrets, the tears, the depression, the melancholy, the anxiety, the panic attacks and the odd suicidal ideations that came with my Ti-Si loops since my early 30s... I am now a lot better at managing them and i even understand their worth so i just dive in and try and understand the meaning of what i see / feel when stuck in them...

 

[DIALECTIC]

Would this sentence be referring to all types, just INTPs, or Ne users (with Ne present as their Dominant, Auxiliary, or Tertiary function)?

The more advanced in the functional stack Ne is, the more hypomanic / manic the individual i guess... However, an immature / uneducated extroverted inferior function would be just as (if not more !!) hypomanic / manic as an auxiliary function, hence the "grip behaviour" of the inferior...

I speculate the same can be said about ANY extroverted function... Don't we say for example: "this guy is manic"...?

Extroverted functions make us do N / T / F / S without any limitations, hence the risks we take when overdoing them ! As i said, it is like being under a demonic possession...


In extroverts now, for example an ESFJ; the "progressive" loop would be Fe-Ne (i.e: primary and tertiary), while the "regressive" loop would be Si-Ti (i.e: auxiliary and inferior).


Also, i think cyclothymia is when both loops Ne-Fe and Ti-Si alternate too rapidly for the mind to take it, so the extravertion / ideation / passion / energy / action of one day / hour is the introversion / isolation / depression / lethargy / passivity of the next !

I was diagnosed with bipolar type 2 / cyclothymia about 3 and a half years ago...

 

[volitionfree]

This is awesome, DIALECTIC. The core of these ideas are almost identical to those I came up with during my second most recent manic episode/depression hellprison.
There's a lot of joy in finding someone else who's speculating this connection.
I'm bipolar I btw with three psych ward incarcerations under my belt xD

 

[Jennywocky]

The more advanced in the functional stack Ne is, the more hypomanic / manic the individual i guess... However, an immature / uneducated extroverted inferior function would be just as (if not more !!) hypomanic / manic as an auxiliary function, hence the "grip behaviour" of the inferior...

Yeah, I don't think my behavior is as extreme as some, but I do basically feel like I "fly out of control" doing the NeFe style thing especially when I get caught up in the interaction, and once i give myself too much leash, I completely jerk it to a halt and drop into the calculated, reserved approach to basically compensate for what I just did and how out of control I just felt. It can be a pingpong, although for me it's manageable.

 

[DIALECTIC]

What about that now ??

It is "established" the first 2 functions are "ego / conscious functions", while the last 2 are "unconscious functions"...

But what about if for introverts, say for example an INTP here what we had was un fact the following:

- Ti (sexual / ego / consciousness)
- Ne (collective unconscious)
- Si (contrasexual / Anima for a male - or Animus for a female)
- Fe (personal unconscious)

Hence the bulldozer power / "possession" of the Ne-Fe loop being a battle between the collective unconscious and the personal unconscious...

Hence the seemingly "depressive" / "stagnating" / masochistic power (and at times anxiety etc) of the Ti-Si loop...

However as we age we start valueing the Ti-Si loop more as we can e truly make the most of it, realizing the unbound expansion of the Ne-Fe loop needs to be regulated by its complementary loop (Ti-Si).

Any thoughts ?

 

[John_Mann]

​...the depressive / melancholic Ti-Si loop is anything but pleasant...

Very good thread!

Ti-Si loop can be translated to "deep internal analysis of past".

INTP's sees the past same way they see the future: infinite possibilities.

When we look to past we don't see a static picture, we always try to see how things could have happened. And, of course, almost all the times the way things went it's not the ideal scenario.

This brings a strong revolt feeling that move us to act to change the present to get a better future. I think the Ti-Si loop is what overcomes the P and moves us to external action (J).

This is the most obscure subject on INTP universe.

 

[DIALECTIC]

INTP's sees the past same way they see the future: infinite possibilities.

When we look to past we don't see a static picture, we always try to see how things could have happened. And, of course, almost all the times the way things went it's not the ideal scenario.

This brings a strong revolt feeling that move us to act to change the present to get a better future. I think the Ti-Si loop is what overcomes the P and moves us to external action (J).

This is the most obscure subject on INTP universe.

Yes that's totally correct: as we age, in addition of seeing / theorizing the future as it could be, we (re)view indeed the / our past as it could have been and therefore suffer from our past failures / mistakes ("if only then i would have had more information...") urging us to never repeat the same mistakes again !!

But i have more (please take some time to read it thru and digest the following as i have been intensively working on it, in my head, for the last week or so, therefore i want to make this as clear as possible as it is so damn abstract to start with):


Sigmund Freud speaks about "Repeating, REMEMBERING and Working Through". He says we humans are creatures of habits and repeat the same past COMPULSIVELY (even if it's painful !), until we manage to "master" it, or better, if we finally manage to recall / remember it, as a result we "transcend" it through working it through !

In psychodynamic psychotherapy, working through is seen as the process of repeating, elaborating, and amplifying interpretations. It is believed that such working through is critical towards the success of therapy.


Freud said: "Instinct is an urge inherent in organic life to restore an earlier state of things."

Therefore (unconscious) instinct is about repeating with no end... Any end as such is imagined by consciousness.


The remembering (thru introspection) and subsequent suffering for INTPs clearly is Si: the tears, the angst, the anxiety, the depression, the regrets, the crisis etc. (hence why i speculated Si could well be our contrasexual function, the door thru which the Anima (/ Animus) communicates with us thru abreations stimulating autosuggestions !

ABREACTION:
(Psychoanalysis) the release and expression of emotional tension associated with repressed ideas by bringing those ideas into consciousness

So, let's go further... Evolution is a DIALECTICAL system:

1 - UNCONSCIOUS (primitive) life is all about REPETITION (ie: conservation / habits / instincts: symbolized by NATURE), Hegel would call it a thesis and in fact said:

"The mutations which history presents have been long characterised as an advance to something better, more perfect. However, the changes that take place in Nature — how infinitely manifold soever they may be — exhibit only a perpetually self-repeating cycle; in Nature there happens “nothing new under the sun,” and the multiform play of its phenomena so far induces a feeling of ennui; only in those changes which take place in the region of Spirit does anything new arise."

2 - CONSCIOUS life is about going beyond / transcending the limitations of repetition thru reflective thinking, intellection, therefore memory (symbolized by CULTURE). Here we have the Hegelian antithesis; the "negation" of the thesis, its opposite !

3 - THE SUPRACONSCIOUS - Finally, because both thesis and antithesis oppose each other and the "cultural" antithesis would lead just as much to excessive compulsion (unbound expansion), therefore death, we need a SYNTHESIS between the two in which they are both PRESERVED AND TRANSCENDED at the same time !
Then the synthesis leads to another thesis (REPETITION) and the whole process starts all over again, that's what evolution is truly about, a never ending dialectical cycle of (1) repetition / regression, (2) progression and (3) sublation of both.

SUBLATION
The idea of sublation is that the old idea or principle is not simply disproved and disposed of but is contained in the new higher principle that has replaced it.
As another example, in our childhood we wrestle with certain problems which are forgotten by the time we are adults, but in fact it is those struggles which have formed us into the adult that we now are, which is no longer troubled by those same problems. Thus: “To supersede, put an end to, but simultaneously maintain, preserve”

I now speculate sublation / synthesis, the third term, is what we may also call PURE INTUITION, i.e: epiphanies, Kant's synthetic a prioris, "metaphysics" etc... When our personal evolutionary process "jumps" stages of evolution !

To me, pure intuition is a near instantaneous sublation i.e a (super)synthesis between the existing thesis (which is already the synthesis from the former stage -of evolution- !) and its antithesis (which is an analysis !).

Conclusion: Pure intuition = Ni !! Ni moves history forward, individual history, therefore universal history.


Anyone with me on this ?

This thread is being redirected here for more specific ideas / add-on's:
http://intpforum.com/showthread.php?p=389010#post389010

 

[DIALECTIC]

PAUL COELHO:

A warrior of the light notices that certain moments repeat themselves.
He often finds himself faced with the same problems and situations as before.
He becomes depressed. He begins to think he is incapable of making progress in life, the difficult moments having returned.

"I've already been through this", he complains to his heart.

"It is true, you have been through it", replies the heart. "But you never went beyond it."

The warrior then understands that the repetition of experiences have one single purpose: to teach him that he has not yet learned.
He begins to seek out a new solution for each repeated struggle - until he finds a way of conquering.

 

[DIALECTIC]

...

Dialectical Thinking

How do we begin to understand how this dialectic works?

First, by beginning to appreciate Hegel's unique philosophical ambition: Totality.

For Hegel, only the whole is true. Every stage or phase or moment is partial, and therefore partially untrue. Hegel's grand idea is "totality" which preserves within it each of the ideas or stages that it has overcome or subsumed.
Overcoming or subsuming is a developmental process made up of "moments" (stages or phases). The totality is the product of that process which preserves all of its "moments" as elements in a structure, rather than as stages or phases.

Think of these structural elements as the interrelated ones of a whole architecture or even better, a fractal architecture.


Aufhebung or Sublation
Aristotle's logic is concerned with separate, discrete (self-)identities in a deductive pattern. Hegel dissolves this classical static view in a dynamic movement towards the whole. The whole is an overcoming which preserves what it overcomes.

Nothing is lost or destroyed but raised up and preserved as in a spiral. Think of the opening of a fern or a shell.

This is an organic rather than mechanical logic. Hegel's special term for this "contradiction" of overcoming and at the same time preserving is Aufhebung, sometimes translated as "sublation".

For anything to happen, everything has to be in place.

Quantum theory, postmodern cosmology, chaos theory, computer interfacing and ecology all essentially subscribe to this view of "totality" in question, without being "hegelian".

 

[HsinHsin]

Yes that's totally correct: as we age, in addition of seeing / theorizing the future as it could be, we (re)view indeed the / our past as it could have been and therefore suffer from our past failures / mistakes ("if only then i would have had more information...") urging us to never repeat the same mistakes again !!

But i have more (please take some time to read it thru and digest the following as i have been intensively working on it, in my head, for the last week or so, therefore i want to make this as clear as possible as it is so damn abstract to start with):


Sigmund Freud speaks about "Repeating, REMEMBERING and Working Through". He says we humans are creatures of habits and repeat the same past COMPULSIVELY (even if it's painful !), until we manage to "master" it, or better, if we finally manage to recall / remember it, as a result we "transcend" it through working it through !

In psychodynamic psychotherapy, working through is seen as the process of repeating, elaborating, and amplifying interpretations. It is believed that such working through is critical towards the success of therapy.


Freud said: "Instinct is an urge inherent in organic life to restore an earlier state of things."

Therefore (unconscious) instinct is about repeating with no end... Any end as such is imagined by consciousness.


The remembering (thru introspection) and subsequent suffering for INTPs clearly is Si: the tears, the angst, the anxiety, the depression, the regrets, the crisis etc. (hence why i speculated Si could well be our contrasexual function, the door thru which the Anima (/ Animus) communicates with us thru abreations stimulating autosuggestions !





So, let's go further... Evolution is a DIALECTICAL system:

1 - UNCONSCIOUS (primitive) life is all about REPETITION (ie: conservation / habits / instincts: symbolized by NATURE), Hegel would call it a thesis and in fact said:




2 - CONSCIOUS life is about going beyond / transcending the limitations of repetition thru reflective thinking, intellection, therefore memory (symbolized by CULTURE). Here we have the Hegelian antithesis; the "negation" of the thesis, its opposite !

3 - THE SUPRACONSCIOUS - Finally, because both thesis and antithesis oppose each other and the "cultural" antithesis would lead just as much to excessive compulsion (unbound expansion), therefore death, we need a SYNTHESIS between the two in which they are both PRESERVED AND TRANSCENDED at the same time !
Then the synthesis leads to another thesis (REPETITION) and the whole process starts all over again, that's what evolution is truly about, a never ending dialectical cycle of (1) repetition / regression, (2) progression and (3) sublation of both.





I now speculate sublation / synthesis, the third term, is what we may also call PURE INTUITION, i.e: epiphanies, Kant's synthetic a prioris, "metaphysics" etc... When our personal evolutionary process "jumps" stages of evolution !

To me, pure intuition is a near instantaneous sublation i.e a (super)synthesis between the existing thesis (which is already the synthesis from the former stage -of evolution- !) and its antithesis (which is an analysis !).

Conclusion: Pure intuition = Ni !! Ni moves history forward, individual history, therefore universal history.


Anyone with me on this ?

This thread is being redirected here for more specific ideas / add-on's:
http://intpforum.com/showthread.php?p=389010#post389010

I am with you.
I think Dialectic is kind of similar to Dao　(I am interested in philosophy in general).
So what's next?