Thoughts About Modern Life

[Gargamel]

I'm from southamerica (Chile) and I will try to explain in English something that is even difficult for me to say in my native language.

I recently did an online test and found out that I am an INTP; it's incredible how well I fit the description, although I do not fit the nerdy stereotype.

I'm 31 years old and I’m working as a market researcher (I like statistics and psychology).

I have changed careers many times and I'm beginning to accept that I will never find a job that suits me, because I just can't stand the schedule (9 to 6:30 here in Chile) I often finish my job in 1/3 of the time and the rest is just daydreaming, or looking for stuff online and feeling like a slave in a cage. I also dislike how inauthentic is people at work, is like everyone is playing a role inside the office (like actors play roles).

What I wanted to share with you was my thinking pattern about modern life style to see if other INTP think in a similar way or is just me.

After analyzing this all my life, I think that the only meaningful thing that you can do with your life is to pursue happiness. We have a limited time (one of the few certainties that we have is that we are going to die), so it is pointless to spend this limited time doing something that does not get you through the road of true happiness or even worst: to spend this limited time suffering or being miserable. I realized that success, money or fame will not provide you with true happiness, so it is pointless to pursue those, hence is pointless to spend the vast majority of your life stuck in a job. Other than getting the means to satisfy your more basic needs of survival, safety and a few social ones, you should stay away of the artificial, unrealistic life that everyone seems to be blindly pursuing. When I do the INTP stuff and I begin to try to look at the big picture of where humanity is heading, all I see is that like rats everyone is aiming towards "progress". But that "progress" is just giving us a bunch of stuff that we don't really need, at a very high price of making the majority of people unhappy, or at least less happy than they could be if they could wake up from this fake and meaningless chase.

For me a society that pursues the human development of all its members makes much more sense than one that pursues something that not only does not benefit humans but also hinders them (progress). I would love to be able to observe, think and develop my knowledge the vast majority of my time and to work just enough to satisfy my basic needs and live a peaceful life, contemplating all the wonders, possibilities and mysteries that life offer us. Knowing that there is an infinite? universe full of mysteries, how can you go mindlessly to your tiny little job doing the same repetitive stuff that does not achieve anything meaningful ever? Our influence is so tiny that is likely that only exists inside our mind. The only thing that seems to make sense inside my head is to observe, analyze and be absolutely stunned by the mystery of life.

You can be rich or poor, but you will die anyway. I prefer to live my life with what I consider meaningful than to follow blindly the road of materialism like most people do, and, paradoxically, I think most people know in a very deep level that that road will not give them a meaningful life.

Sorry for the long post, I just wanted to share this with you and to know your thoughts about my logic, of course I'm not sure of everything I said (INTP?)

 

[RaBind]

I think this type of thought does influence introverted thinkers more, I am only 16 but because of this I have lots of free time to think and it sometimes does get a bit depressing.
I agree with the fact that life is meant for people to persue happiness, but life is also worth living if it has a meaning. I did read a book on something "similar" to this, it was called "Man's Search For Meaning" by Viktor E Frankl, this book explains how life can be meaningful through suffering too. It explains that when people suffer they have a choice on how they can react to the suffering. This choice gives life a meaning on its own because it shapes who he/she is.

In your view, happiness is what people should persue, when there is no chance of being happy like in a concentration camp, is it ok to just give up and die? Obiously no, when someone has a reason to live, like a loved one or your hopes, this is enough.

I agree with your view on society and what is happening. I think that people who aren't happy with their jobs should do something about it but most people only do these jobs because they want to earn money, which "helps" them achieve happiness. For exanple if someone dreams of flying through the clouds, he can go sky diving but money is very important here and the key to earning money is through a job.

People should do what they enjoy and if they thik something is worth it then they should be prepared to take shit for it and that I think is the reason most people go along with society as it is, not to just get rich but to get enough money to be able to do what you "actually" want to do.

Hope this gives you some info about why people so as they do.

 

[Puffy]

This felt relevant: Village of the Watermills 1 of 2 - YouTube
Village of the Watermills 2 of 2 - YouTube

It's a segment from a film, but seeing as it consists of 8 independant dreams it can be viewed on it's own.

I agree, in the sense that I would like to see a society based upon human and social development rather than 'progress'. In terms of community I feel we're pretty backwards, in the UK at least.

Welcome to the forum

 

[Gargamel]

@RaBind:
I understand what you are saying and I mostly agree with you, but:

What I exposed above was under the assumption that you have freedom of choice and a number of different possibilities, like I presume most people in this forum have. Of course under extreme conditions where you are forced to do something or you are deprived from your freedom of choice, things are different. If you are in a concentration camp I guess you have not much more concern than trying to survive and take strength from the thought of a better future or maybe by making a complete shift to the meaning that you give to happiness in your mind.

Having said that, if you can choose the path you want to walk, for me it does not really make sense to choose a path that will make you unhappy. And I think most people is blindly walking that path and THAT is the inconsistency that I´m trying to expose here.

 

[AlisaD]

This felt relevant: Village of the Watermills 1 of 2 - YouTube
Village of the Watermills 2 of 2 - YouTube

It's a segment from a film, but seeing as it consists of 8 independant dreams it can be viewed on it's own.

I agree, in the sense that I would like to see a society based upon human and social development rather than 'progress'. In terms of community I feel we're pretty backwards, in the UK at least.

Welcome to the forum

I love the movie, looking for the whole thing now

@OP: I'd say that almost everyone thinks that they are looking for happiness.
And that a lot of the time people will be looking at the wrong places.
On the bright side, you have time for errors, and as many goes at it as you can fit into a lifetime. And maybe a few errors are just what people need to learn how and where to look for the real thing, and how to appreciate it once it's found.

 

[RaBind]

I think most people is blindly walking that path and THAT is the inconsistency that I´m trying to expose here.

With that in mind, I think it may be how society influences people, besides introverted thinkers, I don't think people would care to think about the issue that deeply. Most people usually just go along with society and the current trends, being rich and famous has always been an objective that society (majority of people) see as being important.

In this case, yes they should wake up unless ofcoarse there is a hidden motivation or reason for what they are doing (you don't know until you ask).

I think what you are brought up to believe and the paradox of choice might be relevant to this?

 

[Pride]

"If we affirm one moment, we thus affirm not only ourselves but all existence. For nothing is self-sufficient, neither in us ourselves nor in things; and if our soul has trembled with happiness and sounded like a harp string just once, all eternity was needed to produce this one event - and in this single moment of affirmation all eternity was called good, redeemed, justified, and affirmed."

- Friedrich Nietzsche


FYI, I like modern society. I love the state of technological, medical, and scientific developments; the "conveniences" that the old man in the Waterfall movie so quickly dismisses as inherently unnecessary because it causes "convenience." Well, I am not sorry to disagree, because they sure make my life easier to live, and offer a FAR greater degree of entertainment to occupy both my mind and body with. If the pursuit of happiness is the highest objective, then these "modern conveniences" HELP me achieve that goal. That movie you posted is meaningless to me. I gained absolutely nothing from it.

 

[Puffy]

^ I posted it because I felt some of the points were relevant, not because it is my view. I'm afterall writing this on a laptop in a heated room lit up at night. (The segments before this one also portray a nuclear disaster and a post-apocalyptic world so some of the context of this clip is missed when viewed on its own.)

The film doesn't have to be wholly about what he says but also the aesthetic appeal. Within a small space all the tasks and necessary resources of the community are all readily accessible. As an image it's appealing because it is simple. Every action/ task has a clear and visible meaning. Of course, besides this it is a beautiful environment, something which is only immediately noticeable in contrast to the segments before this one (which is basically like a giant ash-tray)

In contrast, like the OP implied, I derive very little satisfaction from what I do (Data-entry, for the moment). I essentially transfer customer information from sheet to computer: I cannot derive satisfaction from it as it is so distant and alien from the rest of my life. I do this solely for the interest of a company, not for an interest I have any share in, neither do I see the impact or any communal benefits of what I do. I am essentially alienated in bureaucracy and technology. It is the income derived, past rent, fees and taxes, that become invested in things I can derive meaning from, yet the job, which takes up the majority of my time produces none.

I need a more meaningful job, sure But that is how I kind of read the Watermill critique I suppose - a more proximate life to community and nature as opposed to a distanced one. Applying it in my life would be, for example, going over a friends as opposed to speaking to hir on facebook

 

[Pride]

This is why I changed from being a business major to a history major. Life is much more satisfactory now.

The girl I'm dating now is a biochemistry major. I like her rants about the grandiosity of science.

 

[Gargamel]

I love the movie, looking for the whole thing now

@OP: I'd say that almost everyone thinks that they are looking for happiness.
And that a lot of the time people will be looking at the wrong places.
On the bright side, you have time for errors, and as many goes at it as you can fit into a lifetime. And maybe a few errors are just what people need to learn how and where to look for the real thing, and how to appreciate it once it's found.

I agree that most people think that they are looking for happiness. But I think that most people won't find it and it is because you can't find something if you are blind.

Just to explain myself, I do not have a problem with progress per se, I'm amazed at some discoveries, I like new technologies and the like. What I'm trying to say is that we should focus on our human development first, and if progress comes along the way I would take it as a bonus, but never as our ultimate goal.

Everything in our modern society, I feel, is designed for achieving progress. We are becoming slaves of an abstract concept.

 

[Pride]

Science is concerned with achieving progress. Ordinary people, not so much. Progress to most Americans I've come into contact with are making more money than everyone else, and moving to Beverly Hills someday.

 

[Gargamel]

Science is concerned with achieving progress. Ordinary people, not so much. Progress to most Americans I've come into contact with are making more money than everyone else, and moving to Beverly Hills someday.

For me, progress is not only scientific discovery. Look at the big picture: When everyone is working the vast majority of their time, they are producing. The more the people produce, the more the GDP of the country. Nowadays to say that a country is more developed than another, the economic variables are the most important thing for the comparison. Of course ordinary people are, like ants, contributing to "progress".

There is no time for spiritual development or intellectual restlessness; you are wasting your time with such activities that don't make you money...

P.S. when I say spiritual I don't mean any religious crap, just to be clear.

 

[Pride]

Were people concerned with "spiritual development" or "intellectual restlessness" in the Dark Ages or any period in the history of the human race?

I don't think the problem is one of modernity, but rather a condition of the human psyche as a whole.

Look, to clarify my point; from 16th century philosophy to the Enlightenment to the Age of Romanticism to the postmodernist era, the majority of the population were still not concerned with your idealized vision of the general layman being concerned with intellectualism and self-introspection. Even at the heights of philosophical development in both the Western & Eastern worlds, the average person was only concerned with trivial things - supporting himself, his family, meeting physiological needs, and achieving some form of mild entertainment.

This has been the reality throughout the course of human history.

 

[Gargamel]

Were people concerned with "spiritual development" or "intellectual restlessness" in the Dark Ages or any period in the history of the human race?

I don't think the problem is one of modernity, but rather a condition of the human psyche as a whole.

Look, to clarify my point; from 16th century philosophy to the Enlightenment to the Age of Romanticism to the postmodernist era, the majority of the population were still not concerned with your idealized vision of the general layman being concerned with intellectualism and self-introspection. Even at the heights of philosophical development in both the Western & Eastern worlds, the average person was only concerned with trivial things - supporting himself, his family, meeting physiological needs, and achieving some form of mild entertainment.

This has been the reality throughout the course of human history.

Yes that has been the reality throughout the course of human history indeed. I just wanted to point out that in my view the path that human kind in general is walking is all wrong.

So why did I mentioned modern times?

Maybe I felt that this has been exacerbated in modern times, maybe I mentioned modern times because we are living now and not back then... Whatever the reason, my point was a critique to the current scale of values (money>human development).

The reason of this post was to see whether other INTP felt the same way that I do regarding where humanity in general is heading. I guess my early conclusion is that there is not much agreement with my point of view, hence it is NOT something that most INTP share but it is just my own personal view of things.

 

[Irishpenguin]

I'll throw down that I have about the same view as the OP, especially the sentiment that happiness is the most important thing. A thought that I adopted a while ago. Only bad thing is that happiness seems to be such a fickle little thing, always running over here or hiding over there.

I'd like to throw out that it seems like people (in my age group especially) are tending to put most of the emphasis on having a good intimate relationship with somebody in order to be happy...and not so much with what they are going to do for a living...don't really have a conclusion on that, just a thought

Spoiler

Am I the only one who had nostalgia flashback to the Ocarina of Time Water Temple from the music at the end of part 2 Watermill Village?

 

[Pride]

Yes that has been the reality throughout the course of human history indeed. I just wanted to point out that in my view the path that human kind in general is walking is all wrong.

So why did I mentioned modern times?

Maybe I felt that this has been exacerbated in modern times, maybe I mentioned modern times because we are living now and not back then... Whatever the reason, my point was a critique to the current scale of values (money>human development).

The reason of this post was to see whether other INTP felt the same way that I do regarding where humanity in general is heading. I guess my early conclusion is that there is not much agreement with my point of view, hence it is NOT something that most INTP share but it is just my own personal view of things.

I try to see things for what is, not what I think it could have been or ought to be.

So you are right, I don't agree with your assessment that modern life and technological developments exacerbates the problem. I actually think that advances in technology and the increase of leisure time as a whole (8-working hour days vs. 12+) actually gives us more time to think about these "intellectual developments."

What most people choose to do with their greater degree of personal freedom is, of course, up to them; most people do not end up going down this route.

 

[Jelly Rev]

lol the old man is lost in his own tradition. He acts if technology is bad but watermills=technology.
What are his true reasons against technology? afraid of uncertainty? or a hard SJ stance?

I do want a funeral as badass as that though.

To the OP. yes I agree they are rats and do not think deeply. Why do you believe they are more unhappy than you though? plus Negative emotionality and Positive emotionality are not opposite poles in psychology, seperate traits. Hence some people are more happy and unhappy than you are.

U must define what happiness is? what is it? its essence. Happiness is the obtaining of something more that was desired. That is all. The expectation that something will grant u more is drive/motivation. hope=drive.
Once something is obtained the happiness subsides and more must be sought out. How inefficent it would be for people to always be happy, lack of drive there would be.

Lastly have you talked to people recently? like average joe and jill? They will not be able to keep up with you on a cognitive level. Their minds will scramble into a mess. They need concrete things in reality...perhaps bc they cannot mentally see them in an abstract level.

 

[Gargamel]

lol the old man is lost in his own tradition. He acts if technology is bad but watermills=technology.
What are his true reasons against technology? afraid of uncertainty? or a hard SJ stance?

I do want a funeral as badass as that though.

To the OP. yes I agree they are rats and do not think deeply. Why do you believe they are more unhappy than you though? plus Negative emotionality and Positive emotionality are not opposite poles in psychology, seperate traits. Hence some people are more happy and unhappy than you are.

U must define what happiness is? what is it? its essence. Happiness is the obtaining of something more that was desired. That is all. The expectation that something will grant u more is drive/motivation. hope=drive.
Once something is obtained the happiness subsides and more must be sought out. How inefficent it would be for people to always be happy, lack of drive there would be.

Lastly have you talked to people recently? like average joe and jill? They will not be able to keep up with you on a cognitive level. Their minds will scramble into a mess. They need concrete things in reality...perhaps bc they cannot mentally see them in an abstract level.

I didn't implied anywhere that people is less happy than I am.

I said that the global design of our society makes most of its members walk a path that will divert them from true happiness.

To define my personal view of happiness, firstly I will state what I dont understand as happiness and then give my own definition of it. Happiness is not temporary pleasure, exitement, joy or moment of triumph. Those are defined by other words and share what I think is a short term illusion. I will define happiness like a long term sustained state that give you a peaceful experience of yourself and makes you feel at ease with the external reality supported by a feeling that you are doing something meaningful with your life. Of course you still will suffer, of course you will have ups and downs, but happiness, for me, is that feeling that you in general are heading where you are supposed to be heading. You will feel that inside you provided you have cultivated enough introspection power throughout your life.

Lastly, when I talk with average Joe and the like, I agree they would much prefer to talk about more mundane stuff, and mostly they don't understand a word that I'm talking about, but in general deep inside them they say that they feel that something is not right about their lives.

My solution: to change the global design of modern society.

 

[Jelly Rev]

I didn't implied anywhere that people is less happy than I am.

my bad.

So the happiness you have defined is that of a monk? A general contentment?
Also remember as a monk as great as they are, is behaving in a way to please some code in order to achieve nirvanna. They generate karma doing this.

I'm talking about, but in general deep inside them they say that they feel that something is not right about their lives.

like what?

My question: How?

 

[Pride]

Arbitrary definitions of happiness, right and wrongness is not good for discussion...

 

[Bird]

We're all unappreciative due to "modern" life.

 

[GYX_Kid]

Most people tend to when in doubt or emptiness, look towards convenient or non-convenient activities that set them in pursuit of something traditional to a large degree (whether or not it directly brings them a large dosage of chemical endorphins), and go "do" things.

I think INTP would be least likely to as a first instinct, unless one felt that doing or making something was truly necessary.
E makes it extroverted, S grounds it firmly in 'reality', F makes it depend on relationships, and J makes it base its own value off comparisons to external objects. INTP is a negation of all these default values

 

[yogurtexpress]

I agree with everything you wrote, OP. Unfortunately, most people don't see things this way, and we're going to continue with our 'mindless progress' regardless. I think the problem is that a lot of us do have these philosophical thoughts from time to time, but we don't actually act on them because we think, "What's the difference? No one's gonna listen." And it's a damn shame. The SJs are the ones acting on the dumb ideas, and the NTPs/NFPs just sit back and take it.

 

[Gargamel]

I agree with everything you wrote, OP. Unfortunately, most people don't see things this way, and we're going to continue with our 'mindless progress' regardless. I think the problem is that a lot of us do have these philosophical thoughts from time to time, but we don't actually act on them because we think, "What's the difference? No one's gonna listen." And it's a damn shame. The SJs are the ones acting on the dumb ideas, and the NTPs/NFPs just sit back and take it.

I understand exactly what you are saying, Is nice to read someone that thinks in a similar way. I also feel sometimes that this world is ruled by SJs and we are not going to do anything to change it, for me just being able to realize it and maybe write it here is probably the greatest contribution for a change that i´ll ever made... maybe also writing a book in the future but that´s it

But for sure I will not spend my whole life in a mindless job, I´m applying for a Ph.D to stay as far away as I can from corporate world!

 

[Dionysus]

Happiness is fleeting, not something to be achieved. I think it is unfair to criticize SJ's for they are doing what they do best. Why change that? What is reprehensible in modernity is the grand illusions that are propagated to keep the system running. Watch this, drink that, listen to ...,

What has suffered is inspiration, the sanctity of knowledge, and a grand purpose. These are all arguably knowingly disregarded despite "enlightened" thinking. Or rather because of it? These are not things for "ordinary" people, obviously; they are ordinary. The rest should not be discarded to suffer this lower entertainment and philosophy.

 

[Gargamel]

Happiness is fleeting, not something to be achieved. I think it is unfair to criticize SJ's for they are doing what they do best. Why change that? What is reprehensible in modernity is the grand illusions that are propagated to keep the system running. Watch this, drink that, listen to ...,

What has suffered is inspiration, the sanctity of knowledge, and a grand purpose. These are all arguably knowingly disregarded despite "enlightened" thinking. Or rather because of it? These are not things for "ordinary" people, obviously; they are ordinary. The rest should not be discarded to suffer this lower entertainment and philosophy.

Sorry for taking this long to reply, I've been away and I want to see more opinions on this subject.
SJ's tend to act and then think. They are doing their part in the grand scheme of things, but we are not doing ours, which is to bring clarity to them so they can be acting in things that are relevant for humankind as a whole.

This would be easier if the majority of thinkers agree that humankind is wasting its potential and is moving backwards in terms of healthy development due to poorly set goals.

But it seems that even here in an INTP forum people are not thinking about this issue, and even some seem to agree with the current global design, so there is no agreement.

 

[Code_Name_Ozz]

Life is a crock of shit, and then you die.