Thought Control

[flow]

I find that while interacting with others, I can manipulate people's thoughts and perspectives so that they could end up being more or less positive (obviously this doesn't work on everyone). But if someone is having a bad day, I'll try to change their perspective so that they start thinking that it's actually not that bad, change the topic to something ridiculous (hijack their train of thought), and then bring it back to the topic at hand but in a more positive light. I'll openly work to change their point of view. Idk, it's a lot of fun for me to take other people's ideas and warp them into something entirely different. I think this is a very INTPian move. We like to play with ideas, and often we can't find new ones until we talk to others and engage in some Ne.. HOWEVER, when I'm alone I find that I can't always control my thoughts as well as I'd like. I'm not positive at all. I get down on myself. I'll start getting depressed and become very apathetic and outright annoying. Go to Sleep. Repeat.

In what ways do you control thoughts? Can you control your own thoughts? Can you control other people's thoughts? Do you think it's wrong to? Am I insane? Is it wrong to be insane?! Discuss.

MUSIC: Are our own thoughts being manipulated by music? Is it altering our ideas and perspectives?!



I wrote out this thread while listening to Mogwai's 'Burn Girl Prom Queen', a truly immense and stunning track. I might as well share.

YouTube - Mogwai - Burn Girl Prom Queen

Really though, thought control is everywhere. Governments do it. Fox News does it. Nike does it.

Is it control or be controlled?

 

[Words]

What does control mean? How does it relate to determinism?

 

[CoryJames]

Music can alter the chemical reactions taking place in the brain, which often leads to mood alteration, if that counts.


I can play upon other people's emotions to make them do what I want.

 

[flow]

I can play upon other people's emotions to make them do what I want.

This could be a good or bad thing, depending on what you decide to make them do. You could make them do something for their own benefit, or you could do something for your own benefit.. or maybe both?

 

[EyeSeeCold]

oops fail

 

[Eclipse]

I can play upon other people's emotions to make them do what I want.

*Raises hand*

I usually don't, though, since I prefer to stay in the background and see what they do on their own. But I can get downright manipulative if I feel trapped or cornered.

 

[CoryJames]

This could be a good or bad thing, depending on what you decide to make them do. You could make them do something for their own benefit, or you could do something for your own benefit.. or maybe both?

It depends on my relationship with the person and the situation at hand.

 

[AlisaD]

Everyone both controls and is controlled to some extent. Though, some of us do it more consciously

But yes, as you mentioned, the real problem is not controlling someone else's thoughts, it's dealing with your own. Music does change my moods to some extent (by the way, I like the track you posted) But, if things get really bad, the only thing that really helps is beating my brain into a pulp, and then once it gets tired of bashing, meditation. No big Om crap, just not thinking at all for a while, and then concentrating on myself for another while, and then, on a good day, letting the world in as well.
Alternatively, you could try and find someone who's really good at controlling you, and will always try and make you see things positively. It's kinda risky, but can be great, if you're lucky.

 

[Lostwitheal]

Music does change my moods to some extent (by the way, I like the track you posted) But, if things get really bad, the only thing that really helps is beating my brain into a pulp, and then once it gets tired of bashing, meditation. No big Om crap, just not thinking at all for a while, and then concentrating on myself for another while, and then, on a good day, letting the world in as well.

Yup, this. As an addendum I'll add that when just sitting, it can be very interesting to see what your brain pushes forward into your conscious thought. If you're lucky it'll be something related to why you felt bad to begin with, if you're even more lucky it'll be some meaningless junk, which you can then let go.

Unfortunately just sitting (or just being in general, sitting is not really a requirement) is something that seems to be a very strange concept to us in the west. The best way I've heard it described formally is Zazen, I think. Strip out what little ritualistic and traditional stuff there is from that and you have a pretty good recipe for just sitting/being.

 

[Melllvar]

In what ways do you control thoughts? Can you control your own thoughts? Can you control other people's thoughts? Do you think it's wrong to? Am I insane? Is it wrong to be insane?! Discuss.

I'm pretty sure I put zero conscious effort into manipulating people's thoughts and emotions. I hate manipulative people more than most other things in life. Which sucks, because it seems like most people I've known are very manipulative on one level or another. I think it's a large part of why I don't like people very much, and tend to just keep to myself.

I do remember someone telling me once that when they're talking to people, they're usually thinking about what they can say that will get the response they want, rather than what is true or what they're really thinking. I don't know how people do this. It baffles me. I usually just say what's on my mind, without any ulterior motives, unless they're subconscious and I don't necessarily realize them myself.

Anyway, yeah, I hate people who use conversation to be manipulative of others in this way. You can't trust them. Everything you say becomes some domineering war of words, and you have to constantly be on your guard lest they try and gain the upper hand to serve some sick impulse of their own. You can't even have an honest discussion with them because they won't discuss things in good faith, they'll only say what is needed to put themselves in a certain position or get a certain response. It makes life unenjoyable.

 

[flow]

I hate manipulative people more than most other things in life. Which sucks, because it seems like most people I've known are very manipulative on one level or another. I think it's a large part of why I don't like people very much, and tend to just keep to myself.

I think that INTP's relatively constant state of Ti makes us very conscious of others motives and manipulations. This is why we're so sensitive to being mislead or lied to. I don't want it to seem like I'm out there manipulating people for my own sick twisted pleasure (at least not all of the time). I usually just want people to find some kind of tolerable emotional balance.. and so I help to sway them in the direction I think they need to go.

A lot of this probably stems from my own relationship with my mother. She's an ESFJ with bipolar disorder.

 

[FearDunn]

I work in a retail environment and often exposed to screaming children. I find it quite easy to change their state by asking a simple question or pointing to something of interest. Their lack of emotional attachment to a stranger causes the switch to flip.

 

[Bird]

I don't think you are "controlling"
their thoughts. You are influencing
their thought pattern.

Biiiiiig difference.

 

[Anthile]

"Thought control" is a classic target for the Texas sharpshooter fallacy.

 

[FearDunn]

I don't think you are "controlling"
their thoughts. You are influencing
their thought pattern.

Biiiiiig difference.

Eile is eile(as Gaeilge). Arguing semantics is my hobby.

Persuasion and the subtleties of NLP held my attention for a short time. I've no doubt that influencing a persons state is possible. An INTP type's ability to quantify infinite scenarios, likely plays a role in perceived thought control. After weighing possible outcomes, you arrive at the probable and choose to accept it as influence. It is more likely passive observation coupled with predetermined response/reaction(lest we attempt without careful consideration!).

 

[EyeSeeCold]

Bird is actually correct. The difference is in direct control of the black box.

When you influence thoughts, you control the input, and affect the outcome. When you control thoughts, you control the input, control the processing stage and have full control over the output.

 

[CoryJames]

Do we actually have the agency to control thoughts without physically interacting with the brain and firing artificial impulses?

 

[Dimensional Transition]

Ah, I can't control my own thoughts, I just get depressed and extremely annoying and whiny too. And I can only control others' thoughts in the way you do. Basically, pretty much the same as you.
I wouldn't call bending the subject of conversation to something positive 'mind control' though, it's just trying to cheer up someone.

 

[SkyWalker]

Do we actually have the agency to control thoughts without physically interacting with the brain and firing artificial impulses?

yes we have it, it's called trust (you have to establish it first though)


ever seen those shows by hypnotizers that make people do crazy stuff? the hypnotized people actually trust/love the hypnotizer 100% at that moment.

unconditional trust/love is the basic building block for unconditional mind control

 

[myexplodingcat]

I had a Math teacher I hated. I was always trying to convince her of something and knock some sense into the lady, who didn't know what she was talking about, but always managed to do it while appearing on her side. She bought the whole act for a semester, so I guess I did it well. It was really kind of fun.

As for controlling your own thoughts... I argue with myself constantly, does that count?

 

[Zmaster]

What is really fun is when you know there are people that try to control your mind so you use the 1/0 routine and they get so overwhelmed that they don't come back.

 

[Agapooka]

What binary routine?

Ask them to clarify every ambiguous statement they make and make them acknowledge all the possibilities they're omitting?


As for the OP, what he's doing sounds a lot like what NLP calls "reframing" and I believe he's using certain anchor triggering techniques.

For example, you might talk about something and reframing it would be presenting it from a different point of view. Then you might change subjects somewhat, allowing the person to forget what you were talking about for a moment by bringing them in a state that has more positive emotions attached to it. This can be done more subtly using a created anchor, or by summoning an existing anchor by transitioning to a topic of interest, for example. After transitioning back to the reframed perspective, I can see how that might just reinforce it and perhaps even associate it with the positive emotions that were summoned.

I like this.

 

[EFM]

In what ways do you control thoughts? Can you control your own thoughts? Can you control other people's thoughts? Do you think it's wrong to? Am I insane? Is it wrong to be insane?! Discuss.

Controlling the thoughts of others is relatively easy for me on a small scale... however I usually find that I need some kind of base to build on... Controlling one's own thoughts is much harder for obvious reasons (deception is hard to furnish [Hooray for repressed memories???]), I usually try to alter my thoughts and moods with a good combination of exercise, food, and music (this is the only reason I'm in decently good shape as of now). Walking is optimal because often times being exposed to a different environment than my room and a computer screen helps me think logically again...

 

[Zmaster]

1/0 is simply a model of meditation that I use. Its based on the fact that 15/3=5 6/.25=24 and 1/0 = unlimited power of imagination. Draw them all in like a black hole then at the last min think of something really crazy and they won't know if they imagined it or if they were sent a message.

 

[Agapooka]

I like this. :P

 

[EyeSeeCold]

I like this. :P

You said this twice you know.

 

[Artsu Tharaz]

I think we can make up a justification for just about any belief, in a chain of reasoning where the errors are too subtle for most people to detect. Well, that sounds about right, I guess it is.

Logical fallacies can certainly come in handy.

 

[Agapooka]

You said this twice you know.

I like the fact that you noticed.

 

[EyeSeeCold]

I like the fact that you noticed.

Did I? Or are you so mentally deluded and estranged that you are imagining that there exists other people like you called "INTP", some of which socialize on a forum dedicated to the identity of "INTP" and you happen to frequent this "INTP" forum to gain some sense of identity yourself, and on which you are conversing with one of your ilk?

 

[Agapooka]

Actually, I'm just looking for excuses to start sentences with the words: "I like..."