Thinking Females Exude Special Trait

[Latent]

Males with dominant or axillary Feeling as well as Females with dominant or axillary Thinking have a similar predicament. In a world that is dominated by thinking males and feeling females, gender roles and social norms take a toll on F-Men and T-Women. Growing up, I thought I was supposed to be colder to people and not care about things as much as I did. The same goes for girls who grew up favoring thinking over feeling. They were probably great in math but has to deal with being a "brainiac" which doesn't sound so bad except for the negative social stigma. Thinking girls typically take a tomboy edge growing up which is "not normal".

The point I want to make is Thinking Women and Feeling Men (esp. EJs and IPs) are kind of in a special situation where they grew up questioning and understanding their Tertiary or Inferior Judging function which society inevitably begs them to exhibit. The degree of extra mental work put in to understand themselves in relation to others is rarely put in T-Males and F-Women during childhood. Their temperament gave them a little more insight into others as well as understanding themselves.

 

[speiss]

Well, I don't completely agree.

... You see, I'm horrible at math.

Thinking over feeling, I suppose, has over time become a bit of a problem for me. For example, when with friends, I kind of have to force myself sometimes to exude a horribly exaggerated interest in... well, the unimportant. What people do, what people say, who did this, who said that. I mean, talking about boys is all well and good, they're always fun to talk about, but about the girl you think is slutty a couple of lunch tables over? I find what you say about her mean and unnecessary, not "cool" or justified.

I suppose I was a tomboy growing up, but that may only be because of growing up with two brothers and a mother who never spoke to me about anything remotely... girl-related. I guess I have never considered myself "normal" (probably because I consider normal people boring, anyway). As for being able to understand myself better, yes, finally, after all these years I am able to understand myself a bit better. I thought, for most of my life, that something was kind of wrong with me.. I had a lot of trouble fitting in wirg girls, and I was terrified of boys, so friends never really came too easily. I felt like I had to put on a completely fake persona when speaking with others, and after 16 years, I've finally realized that some people don't mind it, and actually kind of prefer it when I act like a complete and utter weirdo. It's strange. It's definitely strange...

 

[Adymus]

I like this thread, but I just want to bring up one piece of food for thought:

What makes you think the world is dominated by thinking males and feeling females? There is no doubt that the Memes of Gender roles in western culture would suggest that Men are supposed to be Logical and Directive, and Women are Emotional and Adaptive. But are they by nature? Or do they think they are by nature because these meme tell them they are by nature, and then they develop and answer questions on their MBTI tests accordingly...

Just something to think about.

 

[speiss]

Well obviously it's a cultural thing. Women think they must be submissive and accepting, with one of their main purposes being something nice to look at. I can't speak for men.

Even when we're born boys and girls are separated, as boys are put into blue blankets and girls into pink. By nature everybody is different, and you can't really separate personality characteristics by gender.

 

[Cavallier]

^As a sort of aside:

I was floored by how upset people got when a cousin of mine decided to keep the gender of her kid a surprise. Grandmothers were calling up and begging to find out so that they knew whether to buy girls things or boys things. She told them green and yellow would be fine. People still freaked out. I don't understand. It's not as if the kid really has a gender until they are several years older. As an infant it doesn't matter at all.

 

[speiss]

The whole gender stereotype thing is absurd. There was study for.. younger boys, ages 7 - 12 or so, where they put them in a room by themselves full of toys, telling them nobody will know of their choices. Half of them picked up girl's toys as often as boy's. Society labels us for various reasons, one of the larger ones probably being the media and the market. I mean, if girls weren't supposed to like pink from day 1, why would a mother instinctively buy a pink scooter over a blue one? A sparkly fairy doll over a power ranger? A Disney Princess lunchbox rather than a G.I. Joe one? We're all puppets, my friend. Puppets.

 

[Yet]

Hi Latent,
good topic!
I do not want to go into the gender roles that society expects from you, I think that there's quite a change going on men are encouraged to express emotions and girls are encouraged into logical subjects ... at least that is what is ideal now women are able to pick up on more tech professions.

My daughter is a bèta: she loves maths, physics, chemics and biology. She is studying for an informatica related profession at the moment and is doing really fine. There are not a lot of other girls at her school but she feels like a fish in water (she is an INTP by the way ... she is the one who pointed the Myers Briggs test out to me & said: mum you should take that test, you'll recognize a lot).

I always got along a lot better with boys and men ... they seem to be a lot easier to understand for me than all these girly social rules I never used to 'get'.

But ... we are both far from tom boys: we are very feminine! But inside we are logical thinkers. We do 'feel' ; quite sensitive persons to be honest ; we do express our feelings to people who we trust ; but above all we also rationalize in a creative way. We do not get lost in feelings or let feelings overrule logic.
In my book that was always very normal. Just the stupid girl-girl social mumbo jumbo I never got the hang of.

My bestest girlfriends are similar to us. Quite a lot of 'm are mensa-members by the way. Without trying to be bragging ... I think intelligence has a bit to do with what sort of woman you are. Not the feminine-masculine thing is in question but how you use your brain.
That goes for men as well as women. Men who get lost in their male-social-accepted feelings I cannot stand either (who go besurk when 'their' football team plays, who go out and get drunk and braggy and show-of and agressive and stuff like that).

 

[Lobstrich]

I like this thread, but I just want to bring up one piece of food for thought:

What makes you think the world is dominated by thinking males and feeling females? There is no doubt that the Memes of Gender roles in western culture would suggest that Men are supposed to be Logical and Directive, and Women are Emotional and Adaptive. But are they by nature? Or do they think they are by nature because these meme tell them they are by nature, and then they develop and answer questions on their MBTI tests accordingly...

Just something to think about.

Well, statistics might be able to point towards the thought. MBTI statistic are very agreeable with Latents statement.

 

[notrightnow]

Other females seem to be the ones who find female thinkers odd in my experience. Most men I deal with don't seem to be shocked or put off by it but many women do. This might be why I've traditionally had more friendships with men. That said, the female friends I do have are exceptional.

 

[Jennywocky]

I like this thread, but I just want to bring up one piece of food for thought:

What makes you think the world is dominated by thinking males and feeling females? There is no doubt that the Memes of Gender roles in western culture would suggest that Men are supposed to be Logical and Directive, and Women are Emotional and Adaptive. But are they by nature? Or do they think they are by nature because these meme tell them they are by nature, and then they develop and answer questions on their MBTI tests accordingly...

Just something to think about.

Who knows?

But we do have the big elephant in the room: Hormonal disposition and brain patterning in the womb, where women are selected to nurture offspring simply because we give birth. Any temperament traits that reinforce success at that will probably show up more. And in the past, since culture/environemnt selected for men able to survive out in the wild (because someone had to acquire/provide external resources, probably detachment and activity/aggression was more valuable.)

Nowadays, with cultural/environmental needs being much different, perhaps there's a lot more flexibility in the selection. So it still makes it hard to tell what's directly bio and what is simply a possibility within the biology that is being selected by environment.

 

[Adymus]

Well, statistics might be able to point towards the thought. MBTI statistic are very agreeable with Latents statement.

Ah yes, MBTI statistics, of course of course. That settles it right there!


Or does it?


What are those statistics based on? Tests, right? And how are those tests taken? Individual self-assessment, yes? If cultural gender roles are enforcing the idea that men are all thinking and women are all feelers, what is going to stop them from answering questions on those MBTI tests to match up with those views of themselves, even though they might not be true? Think about that for a second, take an ENFJ man for example, being that they are Fe dom they have a very strong desire to be and act how their culture suggests a man is supposed to act. Charming, Dominant, assertive, and of course, logical. None of that emotional shit, that is what women do. So with that view of themselves in mind, how many of them do you seriously expect to actually understand that they are in fact feelers, and answer questions as a feeler would, when they think that is not what men are supposed to be?
And there there is the case of western culture, where being quite, shy, and unsociable is a bad thing, is it really a surprise that the statistics come up with 75% extrovert when people think the alternative is a defect?
What about Japanese MBTI statistics? If 75% of people come up introvert, is there seriously that many introverts? or is it because their culture values this more, and people reflect that value on their test?

First rule about detaching from your assumptions: When one calculation turns out to be off, every single other calculation that it is based on, such as statistics, turns out to be off too.

 

[Lobstrich]

Ah yes, MBTI statistics, of course of course. That settles it right there!


Or does it?

Well, it doesn't since you're into the Pod'Lair thingy. Which is of course alot better. And of course Adymus, you would be alot better choice for judging every single persons type. Including the Japanese population.

 

[Adymus]

Well, it doesn't since you're into the Pod'Lair thingy. Which is of course alot better.

Damn straight.

Don't hate just because we circumvent the pitfalls MBTI falls right into.

 

[Lobstrich]

Damn straight.

Don't hate just because we circumvent the pitfalls MBTI falls right into.

I don't hate because you are apparently better. I hate because I disagree with the behaviour of a bunch of pseudo-experts who have yet to prove their theory, but they claim it to be better and continue to pump it into people.

It reminds of me religion.

 

[Adymus]

I don't hate because you are apparently better. I hate because I disagree with a bunch of pseudo-experts who have yet to prove their theory, but they claim it to be better and continue to pump it into people.

It reminds of me religion.

Teaching, Lobstrich, is very different from Pumping.
Nobody on our side is having a theory pumped into them, they see what we are seeing, and they continue learning about it on their own accord.
Anyone and everyone is welcome to come see what we are talking about, but in order to see our evidence, you actually have to try and look.

 

[Lobstrich]

Teaching, Lobstrich, is very different from Pumping.
Nobody on our side is having a theory pumped into them, they see what we are seeing, and they continue learning about it.
Anyone and everyone is welcome to come see what we are talking about, but in order to see our evidence, you actually have to try and look.

Religion claims to teach as well. How funny.
No, not nobody on "your side" is having anything pumped into them, because they are already on "your side" it's everyone else that are getting pumped.

And please, don't claim that I am not looking for your evidence, I have read more than enough of your threads. I've even watched a video on Youtube which you've linked to. I've even posted my picture to be "typed" But you were no longer typing that way, for whatever reason that might be. Besides, the word "evidence" suggest that the person who holds it has something to prove. So I should not be the one looking for your evidence. You should be presenting it to me.

 

[Adymus]

Religion claims to teach as well. How funny.
No, not nobody on "your side" is having anything pumped into them, because they are already on "your side" it's everyone else that are getting pumped.

And please, don't claim that I am not looking for your evidence, I have read more than enough of your threads. I've even watched a video on Youtube which you've linked to. I've even posted my picture to be "typed" But for some odd reason you were no longer typing that way, for whatever reason that might be. Besides, the word "evidence" suggest that the person who holds it has something to prove. So I should not be the one looking for your evidence. You should be presenting it to me.

The fact that you are being this bitter shows me you are not actually looking. You have already claimed that what we do, what I do every single day of my life, cannot be done. You have already closed yourself off to the possibility of it working this way, you are not looking.

Theory comes later, what is most important is that there is a phenomenon that is taking place, one that you are over looking, and it takes a little more effort then reading threads to see it. If anyone is on our side, it is not because they simply want to be, it is because they see this phenomenon for themselves.

And again, we are presenting it, but if you put in no effort to try and see the phenomenon for yourself, you will get nothing in return. Having a telescope is not enough to prove Heliocentrism, you have to actually get people to look through it first.

Move or don't move Lob, either way you have no reason to act like you are being oppressed just because you don't agree with Pod'Lair.

 

[Lobstrich]

The fact that you are being this bitter shows me you are not actually looking. You have already claimed that what we do, what I do every single day of my life, cannot be done. You have already closed yourself off to the possibility of it working this way, you are not looking.

Theory comes later, what is most important is that there is a phenomenon that is taking place, one that you are over looking, and it takes a little more effort then reading threads to see it. If anyone is on our side, it is not because they simply want to be, it is because they see this phenomenon for themselves.

And again, we are presenting it, but if you put in no effort to try and see the phenomenon for yourself, you will get nothing in return. Having a telescope is not enough to prove Heliocentrism, you have to actually get people to look through it first.

Move or don't move Lob, either way you have no reason to act like you are being oppressed just because you don't agree with Pod'Lair.

I am not bitter, I am amused. I do not feel opressed, just annoyed.
And again, I was looking (I am not anymore) Neither am I really looking for more into the MBTI theory. But as I said before, I should not be looking for evidence supporting your theory. You should be presenting it to me.

 

[Adymus]

I am not bitter, I am amused. I do not feel oppressed, just annoyed.
And again, I was looking (I am not anymore) Neither am I really looking for more into the MBTI theory. But as I said before, I should not be looking for evidence supporting your theory. You should be presenting it to me.

We like to present our evidence to the willing. There is nothing more troublesome then to try and force someone to see something when they are resisting it.

Now let's get back on topic shall we?

 

[Lobstrich]

We like to present our evidence to the willing. There is nothing more troublesome then to try and force someone to see something when they are resisting it.

Now let's get back on topic shall we?

Well, I am fine with this topic.

 

[Latent]

What are those statistics based on? Tests, right? And how are those tests taken? Individual self-assessment, yes? If cultural gender roles are enforcing the idea that men are all thinking and women are all feelers, what is going to stop them from answering questions on those MBTI tests to match up with those views of themselves, even though they might not be true? Think about that for a second, take an ENFJ man for example, being that they are Fe dom they have a very strong desire to be and act how their culture suggests a man is supposed to act. Charming, Dominant, assertive, and of course, logical. None of that emotional shit, that is what women do. So with that view of themselves in mind, how many of them do you seriously expect to actually understand that they are in fact feelers, and answer questions as a feeler would, when they think that is not what men are supposed to be?
And there there is the case of western culture, where being quite, shy, and unsociable is a bad thing, is it really a surprise that the statistics come up with 75% extrovert when people think the alternative is a defect?
What about Japanese MBTI statistics? If 75% of people come up introvert, is there seriously that many introverts? or is it because their culture values this more, and people reflect that value on their test?

Wow. Very good point. We can only assume that the people taking the MBTI tests know themselves well enough to answer the questions for an accurate result.

Lobstritch, I'm no authority obviously, but the post on 8th-March-2011 12:44 PM where you attack Adymus based on a irrelevant personal view was an exhibition lacking character. I don't know what history you too have but this topic is good enough with out quibling.

I just took a test (personalitymax.com) where I tested not as a ENFJ, which I was sure that I was, but as an ENFP. I thought I was in the Upper 90th percentile of knowing oneself, but there is another possibility that these tests could be classifing people inconsitantly as well. I never thought ov my self as 1st function intuitive; i wonder how I (or the test) got it so wrong. Maybe i was in a different mood when I took the test too.

 

[Lobstrich]

Wow. Very good point. We can only assume that the people taking the MBTI tests know themselves well enough to answer the questions for an accurate result.

Lobstritch, I'm no authority obviously, but the post on 8th-March-2011 12:44 PM where you attack Adymus based on a irrelevant personal view was an exhibition lacking character. I don't know what history you too have but this topic is good enough with out quibling.

I just took a test (personalitymax.com) where I tested not as a ENFJ, which I was sure that I was, but as an ENFP. I thought I was in the Upper 90th percentile of knowing oneself, but there is another possibility that these tests could be classifing people inconsitantly as well. I never thought ov my self as 1st function intuitive; i wonder how I (or the test) got it so wrong. Maybe i was in a different mood when I took the test too.

Attack? He made a point that MBTI tests are not very good. I made a "counter-point" so to speak.
And wouldn't you call it rather contradictory that you say that you are no authority, and yet, continue to to judge.
Me and Adymus have no history, as far as I know. I believe that a person is the best judge on oneself. Not another person. I displayed that belief, nothing more.

Am I allowed to say, that I think your hyprocritical behaviour is an "exhibition" lacking character?

EDIT: Since when did personal views become irrelevant? EVERYTHING is personal views no matter how much a person wants it (including me) it's impossible to be 100% objective.

 

[Zionoxis]

Alright ladies, you are both pretty. Anyway, I can see this very easily. Growing up, guys are taught to be tough, do not feel, think, act, and do NOT show emotion, it does not matter. Feeling males is very hard to understand by many. In fact, I find it hard to understand/irritating when another guy is emotional. As far as females thinking, well, I find that perfectly acceptable. I would even prefer to spend time WITH that female more than feeling ones.

I guess that is a bit hypocritical on my part. Oh well.

 

[Lobstrich]

Alright ladies, you are both pretty. Anyway, I can see this very easily. Growing up, guys are taught to be tough, do not feel, think, act, and do NOT show emotion, it does not matter. Feeling males is very hard to understand by many. In fact, I find it hard to understand/irritating when another guy is emotional. As far as females thinking, well, I find that perfectly acceptable. I would even prefer to spend time WITH that female more than feeling ones.

I guess that is a bit hypocritical on my part. Oh well.

Come on, why did you have to ruin the great atmosphere?!

 

[The Gopher]

Yeah I don't think anybody is bitter about Pod'lar I mean whats the point? We are all just amused at Adymus and how every thread he is in turns into an Anti MBIT thread. However I think the majority of the female population however they end up there are F based. But feminists kinda mess with the statistics.

 

[Lobstrich]

Yeah I don't think anybody is bitter about Pod'lar I mean whats the point? We are all just amused at Adymus and how every thread he is in turns into an Anti MBIT thread.

Are you being sarcastic? Or? It's difficult for me to sense sarcasm if there's no smilies or exaggeration or something along those lines.

 

[The Gopher]

Are you being sarcastic? Or? It's difficult for me to sense sarcasm if there's no smilies or exaggeration or something along those lines.

Sarcasm? Never.

 

[Lobstrich]

Sarcasm? Never.

Well, if you could just say "yes" or "no" it would be alot better. Seeing that your first post got me confused and asking about sarcasm. It doesn't help with more sarcasm (even if it's clear this time) Then the first post because even more confusing to me.. Lol.

 

[Adymus]

Yeah I don't think anybody is bitter about Pod'lar I mean whats the point? We are all just amused at Adymus and how every thread he is in turns into an Anti MBIT thread. However I think the majority of the female population however they end up there are F based. But feminists kinda mess with the statistics.

And I can't help but be amused at how some of you guys, when you cannot defend MBTI because you know I am actually right, resort to attacking Pod'Lair with completely unfounded claims, just to make yourselves feel better.

I am even more amused at how you guys can't even do that right, but you have no idea what you are talking about.

Shit, I actually do my research, you could at least give me the same courtesy in return.

 

[The Gopher]

And I can't help but be amused at how some of you guys, when you cannot defend MBTI because you know I am actually right, resort to attacking Pod'Lair with completely unfounded claims, just to make yourselves feel better.

I am even more amused at how you guys can't even do that right, but you have no idea what you are talking about.

Shit, I actually do my research, you could at least give me the same courtesy in return.

Well then we are both amused sounds good to me. But you know those people that are so for something it gets obnoxious well.....

 

[Lobstrich]

And I can't help but be amused at how some of you guys, when you cannot defend MBTI because you know I am actually right, resort to attacking Pod'Lair with completely unfounded claims, just to make yourselves feel better.

I am even more amused at how you guys can't even do that right, but you have no idea what you are talking about.

Shit, I actually do my research, you could at least give me the same courtesy in return.

Wow, take it easy Adymus. No need to take it personal.
No, I'm no MBTI expert. That doesn't exclude me from not liking Pod'Lair Which claims to be able to type other people. Which is completely against my beliefs. I don't believe YOU can decide how I think, only I can. Furthermore, I don't believe that you can look at how a person moves and talks and then go "yeah he definately likes sci-fi" I mean what the fuck? Sorry to be frank, but it's just so insanely naive in my opinion.

And for the third time. It's not on me, or latent for that matter, to do research on something which I do not believe. If you want to convince me it's the right way, you're the one who needs to give me the research.

EDIT: Another thing to add is; who are you to decide what is unfounded and what is not? As mentioned above I do not believe in what Pod'Lair claims to be able to. It's an opinion. I am allowed to have one and it's not unfounded.

 

[soraya]

すみませんだけどちょっと困ります。。。。The business of bringing Japan into stuff without actually having lived here has got to stop. My point is not that it's offensive, maybe it is maybe it's not, I don't really care. The point is that it's exhibiting ignorance because the invalidity of the assumptions shows an extraordinary lack of cultural knowledge. (Don't speak from what you don't, or only superficially, know.) Making an argument using a false axiom is not going to yield accuracy.

Lately I've seen both of these things:
1. Japan would, given cultural standards, and tested using an MBTI, yield a higher proportion of introverts than extroverts.
2. Operating under the axioms of MBTI, Japan is probably full of INTJs.

both of these are flamingly flamingly false. I'd elaborate but I don't want to majorly detract from the discussion.

Questions are good. Questions like, "Would Japanese culture create a bias in favor of introversion?" are good questions. Statements like, "Japanese culture creates a bias in favor of introversion," show a lack of knowledge. And people think we have great technology too...
ありがとうね、失礼しました。

 

[Lobstrich]

すみませんだけどちょっと困ります。。。。The business of bringing Japan into stuff without actually having lived here has got to stop. My point is not that it's offensive, maybe it is maybe it's not, I don't really care. The point is that it's exhibiting ignorance because the invalidity of the assumptions shows an extraordinary lack of cultural knowledge. (Don't speak from what you don't, or only superficially, know.) Making an argument using a false axiom is not going to yield accuracy.

Exactly.

EDIT: Although, I would like to point out that just because one lives in a country doesn't necessarily have to mean one knows it. I can only judge how I think the general Dane behaves. Not how we all behave.