The spontaneity paradox

[Turnevies]

I don't think I'm insulting any INTP by observing that we are generally better at strategical thinking than interacting with people. But at some point in your youth, you realize that aside from IQ, there's this EQ thing that is also crucial for succes in life.

So you improve your people's skills by observing what others do and perhaps read a blog or a book. But the flipside of this self-improvement is that it makes you less spontaneous and people notice that, it also somewhat related to being less genuine. In generally, calculating people are considered less sympathetic than spontaneous people. For example Hillary Clinton is sometimes blamed for her lack of spontaneity (There is a difference here, she could be INTJ-Coldest Human while we are INTP-Warmest Machine but I don't think it changes the argument too much). I don't really blame others for not liking calculated people, one shouldn't trust certain calculated people such as Peter Baelish or Hannibal Lector. The alternative for being less calculating is being more spontaneous, but with the risk of saying things that are not entirely appropriate.

I am aware of my extraverted feeling and it can be useful in some situations. Typically it jumps into action when I get a pleasent surprise, e.g. if I meet people I like when I don't expect it, extraverted feeling puts an instant smile on my face. Also with very close friends I interact by default with extraverted feeling. But in a more general context, especially when there is a possibility for planning, I tend to rather run a simulation of feeling in my rational brain, than really feeling the interaction.

How do you guys deal with the inner conflict between being calculating in your interactions and being spontaneous?

PS: It seems to me this paradox is not NT-only. In advance of public speaking for example, anyone will need some thinking. Maybe the use of feeling is related to the amount of experience with the situation?

 

[Jennywocky]

I am calculatingly spontaneous.

... I try not to talk about my calculations much, because people can read that wrongly. Just because I think through things and the ramifications of my decisions/interactions and possibly pick certain approaches with people because I think the end result will be most positive for everyone doesn't mean I am being manipulative in the negative sense, although some people read anything non-spontaneous as that way. I can't really help being aware of ramifications and acting accordingly.

I find more the hardest type of socializing for me is that purposeless kind. Like, I'm really friendly when I have a goal in mind or a reason to talk to someone. But when I'm just tossed in a room without a goal with a bunch of other people... I don't know what to do, esp if no one is talking themselves or putting out cues of things I could say to connect with them. I'm reactive that way. But if I start connecting without goals in mind, purely on the level of finding a shared interest with someone or finding a topic we both are interested in, then it does become a more spontaneous interaction.

 

[Ex-User (9086)]

I don't enjoy interaction if I have to be fully deliberate, I sometimes do it, but it's like I'm not there, it's like watching some person say things that don't resonate and that person is me.

If I'm feeling spontaneous and allowed to do my own thing then it's going to be hit-and-miss, but there will be people who'll like it more than others and over time I tend to end up hanging out only with those.

Often the best spontaneous thing I want to do is being silent and listening to others.

I'm experiencing the language barrier to some extent, I feel comfortable using my native, but when it comes to others (English, Mandarin Chinese, German) there are times when I feel relaxed and expressive and times when I've been reduced to a typewriter. It's some kind of feeling of "effort", as if every word uttered tires me when I assemble it into sentences.

 

[redbaron]

I have enough IQ to IQ my way through things normally requiring EQ.

 

[Brontosaurie]

I have enough IQ to IQ my way through things normally requiring EQ.

A funny thing happened today. It was the first time i saw old people and didn't think "Damn old people, always walking so slow just because they can to fuck things up! Fucking grow up already, old people". The possibility that they're actually just slow from old age dawned on me. Of course, it wasn't the first time i was aware of this possibility, but the awareness was different. Such slight mental shifts deserve great attention since they are the bifurcations of individuation.

Anyway i'm not sure if my EQ is through the roof or abysmal but i really agree with having a high IQ which i guess is why i quoted your post.

I really tried feeling sympathy for the old people and their frailty. Then i couldn't and i felt bad for that.

 

[Tannhauser]

It's an art form. Sometimes you are about to say something witty, but before the sentence is formulated in your brain and is about to be sent as nerve impulses to your mouth, something stops you, and you realize it wouldn't be as funny after all, and you say something else instead. The whole process takes about 1/10th of a second.

 

[Hadoblado]

My spontaneity often comes at the expense of what other people were doing. Sometimes it's well received, but often people feel like I'm just trampling them. Spontaneous me doesn't care about small talk, that's the kind of thing I need to put effort into, so it's always calculated to some degree. So a lot of people perceive me as quiet until they see my inhibitions go down, and overnight I go from a background observer to someone who they can't shut up

It's a big hit with kids though. 10/10 would get in the van again.

People of an open temperament also tend to appreciate my shenanigans, but even then they need to be in a decent mood.

 

[The Gopher]

As far as the IQ meaning you have EQ that's pretty much correct. Just realize emotions have a logical origin, at least for that particular person. It's pretty much impossible for anything to happen that isn't logical if you think someone emotionally overreacts there's obviously a logical reason for it. EQ is actually just harder to comprehend logic. It's only harder to comprehend because you generally don't have all the information required and need to make some leaps of judgement.

As far as spontaneity goes, just react straight away with a standard response while you think. Something like a Yeah? No! Hmm... well... You're kidding! Then either they'll start talking again straight away if they're a stinking extrovert or you can go on and talk about what you thought about when you said that. You can even queue up a standard response that might fit while they are still talking. If you need more time to talk you can go into thoughtful mode which appears different from calculating because it shows you're really interested and invested in the conversation and are making sure you have thought things through. Also maybe have a short list of things to never talk about in conversation unless first brought up by them. You know... like the things that are brought up here.

Basically an immediate vapid reaction plus emotional expression satisfies the social not calculating portion and you can then go on to think about your response including it's social acceptability under the guise of thoughtfulness. Also the vapid reaction doesn't need to be inauthentic it can be your emotional reaction to what was said but just don't say anything other than conveying the emotional reaction you had while you think about what to say.

That said it's something I need to work on and in some respects it's probably better to "be an extrovert" and say what you think that way you get rid of all the people who don't/wouldn't like you. I'm convinced extroverts think everyone loves them because everyone who doesn't just leaves.

 

[Praetorian]

Spontaneity is unnatural to me; ignoring my thoughts and just going with the flow of a conversation is like grimly deciding to jump into the ocean without knowing how to swim hoping to be miraculously saved: " Well, I've gone and said/done it. Does the conversation live or die? Time to see what happens next!" Even when it worked well (rarely), after whatever free-wheeling thing I did or said, I always felt empty or dishonest internally, so I just decided to scrap the urge to be spontaneous, and embrace my natural tendency towards quietness and calculation. If anything, my evolution towards freezer status has been entertaining enough to compensate for the lack of social connection.

 

[Nibbler]

Yes, when I was younger, there was a very difficult realization that my social skills were lacking. Not only that, I didn't know how to relate to people in complex ways that made them feel good about our interaction. I was stilted, stammering and unsure of myself.

But there were no blogs then, and books about it were too confining. Self-help books (at least then) had homework that I had no idea how to take from the page and actually apply it... mostly because its lessons were erased from quick mental access when needed.

How do you guys deal with the inner conflict between being calculating in your interactions and being spontaneous?

Not until recent years have I adapted with calculating interactions. Mostly it was all spontaneous on gut feelings and wasn't always successful, usually culminating in feelings of not fitting in. When warm people behave spontaneously, it comes naturally. They can sense when a stilted robot is in the room, even if the robot is smiling and nodding. They give unsolicited advice, making matters worse.

"I've been found out!"

In recent years I've learned FINALLY to start planning ahead. Maybe it's age and sense memory, but I'm starting to recall these plans on-the-fly, no longer lost in a whitewash of "Uh oh. What was I supposed to do?! I'd better act now!" (awkward awkward awkward...)

There has been a nagging cop in the back of my mind, though, going "You're being manipulative. Planning ahead is manipulation of other people. You're trying to elicit specific reactions from people by planning ahead. How can you mean what you say to people when the words or behavior didn't come from the natural give/take or action/reaction of human interaction? You feel so dirty!"

It's not a huge struggle, because intellectually I know that I mean no ill-will to others. But it's still something to reconcile so that it aligns with my values. And because I will know when I'm dishonestly rationalizing verses actually excusing the calculating behavior as having integrity, it will take a little longer to sort out.

I'm forgiving of someone like Hilary, though. As Howard Stern explains, these people are serious leaders. To force them into situations where they have to perform like circus clowns (silly skits on talk shows, variety shows, and the like) is an indictment of us and our childish needs and not an indictment of them. Leave them alone and stop making them perform for us.

If I've learned anything about my life as an INTP, it's that it's wrong to force someone out of their strengths and into a weakness (for which they will be bashed, not patted on the back for) for someone else's petty insecure needs.

 

[EyeSeeCold]

Similar to what Gopher described I consider spontaneity to be about communicating in a way that lessens the burdens, demands, or obligations placed on yourself and others while socializing. It doesn't have to mean randomness or responding to situations with quick wit.

For example making provisional remarks to keep the conversation going is a way to provide validation and you can return to topics later on with "oh yeah...", "I was thinking.." etc (Gopher's scenario). Or instead of interfering in people's personal lives by asking if they are busy or have plans just inform them of your situation and make a simple request "I'm moving on Saturday and I'm looking for a hand, would you mind?". That way they can maintain their dignity and independence rather than feeling indebted.

The dark side of spontaneity is impulsiveness, which is acting from self-gratification or seeking self-validation rather than acting according to a plan or good judgment. Some people can pull off impulsivity with charisma and expediency but for me at least I wouldn't consider it to be a healthy or productive aspect of myself and it's something I try to minimize.

There's nothing wrong with being calculating in your interactions, I would guess most socially successful people utilize it. A concern for the well being of others and the ability to feel empathy separates it from sociopathy so I wouldn't say you should worry if all you're doing is trying to improve your social skills and relationships.

 

[DIALECTIC]

Love this thread and everyone's answers / thoughts : you all brilliantly expressed in words things that had been in my head for a while.

I wonder if as we, INTPs, get older and grow wiser we don't tend to lose our (unconscious) spontaneity (i.e tactical thinking) dating from our youth and develop instead a more thorough strategic thinking as a result : basically all our past experiences (Si) have been categorized (we could call them "Alpha elements" using Wilfred Bion's psychoanalytic vocabulary) so we can extrapolate from them. Because before integrathing the Si function into our stack we had nothing factual and practical to base our extrapolation from... Only facts and theories we inherited from our environment and a lot of us, including myself, were very unlucky to be born in Sensor families so we had to start from scractch most of their ideas / thinking weren't in line with our INTP essence.

As we become true to our INTP essence, our thinking is becoming so powerful (thanks to Si) because we can ponder our thoughts before talking or acting as we can extrapolate (Ne) much better the consequences of our words or actions on people's reactions and feelings (Fe). Therefore there are a lot of things we no longer do or say (because usually we already did in the past and a lot of them took us in the wrong direction, while some did take us in the right one) as there is no more need for them. Also we can just leave others do or say them instead of us while benefitting from them with no effort / investment.