The solution to all of INTPs problems

[Tannhauser]

If you are good at thinking, this skill is applicable in two domains only: mathematics and logic. Everything else is heuristics, rules of thumb, experience, trial and error.

How do I find the right job? How do I find a girl? Why do I have social anxiety?

These are not questions of theory, they are questions of trial and error. The solution is simple: get out of the comfortable sphere of theorizing inside your head. Let go of the arrogant trust in your ability to "think" and theorize. Think less. Test the limits of experience.

*drops the mike*

 

[Haim]

"If you are good at thinking, this skill is applicable in two domains only: mathematics and logic."
false.
Thinking is much more than that,when you face a problem if the brain already solved the problem you will not think much about it,you will use existence solution,but when you face a new problem you think,you need new understanding or to understand,to chance the structure of your brain and that is when you use creativity,real thinking include that,logic and mathematics are mere skills and tools saying that thinking is only them is understatement.

 

[emmabobary]

*drops the mike*

*Claps and whistles furiously, alone*

LOL

Thinking is much more than that,when you face a problem if the brain already solved the problem you will not think much about it,you will use existence solution,but when you face a new problem you think,you need new understanding or to understand,to chance the structure of your brain and that is when you use creativity,real thinking include that,logic and mathematics are mere skills and tools saying that thinking is only them is understatement.

I think that Tannhausser made your point, Haim ^^
If facing new problems with known mathematical and logical methods don't work anymore, get loose! let creativity come to save the day.


...I guess

 

[Inquisitor]

If you are good at thinking, this skill is applicable in two domains only: mathematics and logic. Everything else is heuristics, rules of thumb, experience, trial and error.

How do I find the right job? How do I find a girl? Why do I have social anxiety?

These are not questions of theory, they are questions of trial and error. The solution is simple: get out of the comfortable sphere of theorizing inside your head. Let go of the arrogant trust in your ability to "think" and theorize. Think less. Test the limits of experience.

*drops the mike*

But what to try? How about if I'm interested in becoming a doctor? That takes 8 years minimum and $250k. Some career options have an impossibly high price tag in terms of time and money. That's the whole point of typology/MBTI theorizing...improving the probability that you will like the choice you make. It can be very difficult to backtrack or start over for some things. For the things you mentioned, I arrived at answers by thinking, not by doing.

 

[DrGregoryHouse]

But what to try? How about if I'm interested in becoming a doctor? That takes 8 years minimum and $250k. Some career options have an impossibly high price tag in terms of time and money. That's the whole point of typology/MBTI theorizing...improving the probability that you will like the choice you make. It can be very difficult to backtrack or start over for some things. For the things you mentioned, I arrived at answers by thinking, not by doing.

Agreed. The trouble with just acting as an INTP, and not thinking, is acting in the wrong direction.

Only to wake up decades later and realizing that you took all the wrong actions.

Yes, act to the exclusion of thinking, but be sure your actions aren't out of line with what your true inner self is going to value decades down the road.

Be true to your INTP self. Act yes but act wisely.

 

[Ex-User (9086)]

Did you see any intp actually do something about their misery?

They would immediately be branded istj or intj and ousted from the office.

 

[Hadoblado]

Tannhauser: *drops the mike*
Mike: "jesus fuck man what the hell?"

Did you see any intp actually do something about their misery?

They would immediately be branded istj or intj and ousted from the office.

Very this.

@OP
A question can be of trial/error, maths, thinks, logics, heuristics, experience etc. In fact, most of them are. The INTP condition seems to describe a symptom of being able to logic but refusing to go and test those logics, to somehow fall into a false dichotomy between thinking and experiencing. But experience can be thought about, so there's no need to embrace one while forsaking the other. Take your strengths and apply them to your new approach, thinking is a very general skill and it will make you better at pretty much everything all else being equal.

 

[emmabobary]

Fuck that shit!
You better develop your less developed skills!.
I'm drunk.
I better go post on the other thread :v

 

[Terror]

Mike: *drops the tear*

 

[emmabobary]

*claps and whistles furiously, drunk, alone*

 

[Sixup]

You better develop your less developed skills!.

There is definitely some validity to that. But I wonder what is better...

Focus on your strengths, and develop them maximally, or try to bring up weaknesses and be more well rounded?

It seems that as long as your weaknesses are not so bad that they hinder your overall ability, then you should be focused on strengths. Especially if it is one of those things that comes easy.

 

[Minuend]

Focus on your strengths, and develop them maximally, or try to bring up weaknesses and be more well rounded?

Yes, everything.

 

[scorpiomover]

If you are good at thinking, this skill is applicable in two domains only: mathematics and logic.

Interesting idea. FYI, mathematics and logic used in business, physics, chemistry, electronics, data analysis, biology, economics, business, accounting, pricing, calculating profit margins, and even dating (lots of dating sites now rely on complex mathematical calculations to pick a better choice of mate. The algorithms are being improved. So it appears that the only problem with this approach is that it was only started recently). There's almost no area of life that has not been so improved by the addition of mathematics, that in almost every case where it was applied successfully, it's become the de facto standard that everyone uses in those fields.

Everything else is heuristics, rules of thumb, experience, trial and error.

These are all good techniques. Mathematics is called the Queen of the Sciences. The other sciences are the scientific study of a particular topic. Mathematics is the scientific study of the rules that the other sciences use. Heuristics, rules of thumb, experience, trial and error, and much, much more are studied scientifically in mathematics. If one knows physics, one understands the physical very well. If one knows mathematics, one knows how to use heuristics, rules of thumb, experience, trial and error, and much, much, much more, in millions of situations, that even those highly experienced with such techniques never dreamt were possible.

How do I find the right job? How do I find a girl? Why do I have social anxiety?

These are not questions of theory, they are questions of trial and error. The solution is simple: get out of the comfortable sphere of theorizing inside your head. Let go of the arrogant trust in your ability to "think" and theorize. Think less. Test the limits of experience.

*drops the mike*

That works for TJs, as they use Te, which is an extraverted function. Extraverted functions tend to be big on action, and low on computation. That doesn't work with Ti, because Ti is high on computation. Trying to get Ti to work like Te, is like trying to drive to the local supermarket in a jet plane. It goes so fast, that you just fly by. It takes a dozen tries just to get it within a mile. Plus, trying to achieve consciously, results in the conscious self trying to take over the jobs of the unconscious, which tends to produce a role-reversal, resulting in the subconscious doing jobs that it is poor at, and the conscious doing jobs that it is poor at.

INTPs tend to be productive, when they keep themselves in a state of calm, and focus on the things that interest them, letting their subconscious accomplish for them automatically. Going out to achieve uses Fi, which is very low down in an INTP's stack. INTPs get on better by using their Fe as a motivator, going out with a friend who wants a wing-man, and talking to people who seem like they could do with cheering up, and using their Ti to analyse human behavioural patterns. By default, the subconscious Si & Fe sends INTPs out to collect data. Ne automatically collects data on people they meet, which is where INTPs get their data for answering questions of trial and error. All INTPs have to do is ask their Ne to recall their experiences and spot the patterns.

In short, the solution is incredibly simple for INTPs: just let go, chill out, relax, and do whatever comes naturally. They're not Js. Their subconscious are Js for them.

 

[scorpiomover]

But what to try? How about if I'm interested in becoming a doctor? That takes 8 years minimum and $250k. Some career options have an impossibly high price tag in terms of time and money. That's the whole point of typology/MBTI theorizing...improving the probability that you will like the choice you make. It can be very difficult to backtrack or start over for some things. For the things you mentioned, I arrived at answers by thinking, not by doing.

Do what comes naturally. Learn about being a doctor. Read a few books. Go to hospitals, hang out in the ER, and talk to some doctors and nurses. You'll see what happens in an ER for real. Chat to them, and take an interest in their work. You'll hear them talk about the real good and the real bad of their job, that they'll never admit to people they want to impress. Some of them will probably end up inviting you out with them. You'll get to see how they behave when they are relaxed. You'll also be able to assess how much they really earn, by how much they spend in an evening enjoying themselves. Chat to the consultants, the surgeons, the ER doctors, the hospital administrators, and the nurses. Maybe consider working as a hospital janitor for a week. Hang out in a general surgery, to see how general doctors' work and live. Hang out in a plastic surgery clinic, to see how they work and live. Use your Ne to see patterns. Use your Ti to keep trying fits until it all fits together. In a few weeks, it's likely that you'll have enough data to decide which speciality is for you.

 

[bvanevery]

Gosh who wants to be a doctor anyways? Dumb career choice for an INTP I think. Way too much regimentation and preparation for the act of making money.

"How do I find the right job?" Caveat to the experimental, taking action approach. You may find out that there isn't one. You want something out of your work that the career world is never going to provide you. If so, you have to either invent your own job description, or forget about career. I've been doing a bit of both.

"How do I find a girl? Caveat again: you may find yourself faced with demographic forces much bigger than yourself. I wouldn't wish to discourage anyone from going up needed learning curves, but I'm saying, it can happen. I actually have a hypothesis that heterosexual men going to heavy engineering centers like Seattle, is a really, really bad idea. Too many men in the metro area, so becomes harder to find women. At least it definitely seems like an important variable in problems I myself had out there. Generally speaking, techies are a plague. They skew the gender balance and they drive the price of everything in a region sky high.

The general form of these 'big' problems is, you actually did go out and try and try and try. You did all that empirical stuff. It didn't work. Then what? I find I try to either wrap my head around a much bigger problem, or just let go and not care about that aspect of my life.

 

[Inquisitor]

Do what comes naturally. Learn about being a doctor. Read a few books. Go to hospitals, hang out in the ER, and talk to some doctors and nurses. You'll see what happens in an ER for real. Chat to them, and take an interest in their work. You'll hear them talk about the real good and the real bad of their job, that they'll never admit to people they want to impress. Some of them will probably end up inviting you out with them. You'll get to see how they behave when they are relaxed. You'll also be able to assess how much they really earn, by how much they spend in an evening enjoying themselves. Chat to the consultants, the surgeons, the ER doctors, the hospital administrators, and the nurses. Maybe consider working as a hospital janitor for a week. Hang out in a general surgery, to see how general doctors' work and live. Hang out in a plastic surgery clinic, to see how they work and live. Use your Ne to see patterns. Use your Ti to keep trying fits until it all fits together. In a few weeks, it's likely that you'll have enough data to decide which speciality is for you.

I'm sure your intentions are good scorpio, but I've done all of your suggestions and more. I have experience in this area. Both my parents are physicians. I've worked in hospitals, done clinical and basic research, shadowed loads of physicians, read many books written by doctors, volunteered in ORs and ED...

All of this falls under the category of career "thinking" or "planning." Unfortunately, none of those activities above even remotely approximates what it feels like to actually work as a doctor. That's why burnout/disillusionment is such a problem nowadays. Doe-eyed pre-med students get to residency and realize it's not how they pictured it, but by then they've already invested so many years and so much money that the pressure to finish is really high.

I maintain it is very difficult to "trial-and-error" with many fields, medicine certainly being the most obvious example I can think of. That's why MBTI is so useful. This is not to say that getting an MD is a useless endeavor for INTPs, but if they are attracted primarily to the patient care aspect of medicine, as I was, I think they're heading for trouble.

 

[bvanevery]

I maintain it is very difficult to "trial-and-error" with many fields, medicine certainly being the most obvious example I can think of. That's why MBTI is so useful.

Heh, case in point, what if you just end up with error and no trial? Happened to me a few places along the way:

• placed into an inferior calculus class my senior year in high school. They thought their accelerated version of BC Calculus would be too hard for me. Nobody took account of my previously demonstrated math talent, like previously having competed in math contests, etc. We were moving to London and this just got lost in the shuffle. I got put in AB Calculus and resented this baby class the whole year.
• went to Cornell thinking I'd do physics and holography. Due to strong AP Physics score, got placed into Honors Electricity and Magnetism. It had math way over my head, and was 'taught' by some Japanese guy who only said 1 useful thing the whole class. "You should not be in this course." I didn't believe him, and my physics advisor was one of these "well see what you can do" kinds of advisors. Really bad advice! I dropped to baby engineering physics at the last minute to keep from flunking. If I had been placed in Honors Mechanics, which I thought I had already studied back in high school, maybe I'd be a physicist today.
• Wanted to take 3d computer graphics my sophomore year, but the course was rarely offered back then and was cancelled. Declared anthropology major instead, because computer science people were pretty boring role models. Finally got to take 3d graphics my junior year and the prof was cool. Realized this was what I wanted to do with my life. After I got out of school, parents gave me money, I taught myself 3d graphics on my own for about 4 years before entering industry for real.

I think this is evidence that stumbling on the way, pursuing "trials", can put you many years behind the competition. Not to mention all the extra time and expense. Wouldn't mind getting some of those years back, but one can only work on the present.

You have to try various things, you'll never know if you don't, but I think selling people a song about how much career prep is going to be needed is wrong. I don't think I'd advise anyone to wing computer programming unless they're brilliant, and even then, it has consequences. The good news is it's a field where only your ability to deliver results matters, you don't need a pedigree and years of training as is the case with MDs.

 

[Inquisitor]

Heh, case in point, what if you just end up with error and no trial? Happened to me a few places along the way:

• placed into an inferior calculus class my senior year in high school. They thought their accelerated version of BC Calculus would be too hard for me. Nobody took account of my previously demonstrated math talent, like previously having competed in math contests, etc. We were moving to London and this just got lost in the shuffle. I got put in AB Calculus and resented this baby class the whole year.
• went to Cornell thinking I'd do physics and holography. Due to strong AP Physics score, got placed into Honors Electricity and Magnetism. It had math way over my head, and was 'taught' by some Japanese guy who only said 1 useful thing the whole class. "You should not be in this course." I didn't believe him, and my physics advisor was one of these "well see what you can do" kinds of advisors. Really bad advice! I dropped to baby engineering physics at the last minute to keep from flunking. If I had been placed in Honors Mechanics, which I thought I had already studied back in high school, maybe I'd be a physicist today.
• Wanted to take 3d computer graphics my sophomore year, but the course was rarely offered back then and was cancelled. Declared anthropology major instead, because computer science people were pretty boring role models. Finally got to take 3d graphics my junior year and the prof was cool. Realized this was what I wanted to do with my life. After I got out of school, parents gave me money, I taught myself 3d graphics on my own for about 4 years before entering industry for real.

I think this is evidence that stumbling on the way, pursuing "trials", can put you many years behind the competition. Not to mention all the extra time and expense. Wouldn't mind getting some of those years back, but one can only work on the present.

You have to try various things, you'll never know if you don't, but I think selling people a song about how much career prep is going to be needed is wrong. I don't think I'd advise anyone to wing computer programming unless they're brilliant, and even then, it has consequences. The good news is it's a field where only your ability to deliver results matters, you don't need a pedigree and years of training as is the case with MDs.

Interesting. I'm actually taking CS courses right now...waiting to hear back from my state school about my second bachelor's application. The plan is get a degree in ~2 years and then hopefully land a decent SE gig. Your story is similar to what I've seen with several other INTPs (myself included). They seem to have trouble in formal education settings, being a priori averse to being inculcated with knowledge by an external authority. This doesn't stop them from making contributions professionally, however. AJ Drenth calls this the INTP "maze." I would have to agree. How do you like 3d graphics? Are you working on the hardware or software?

 

[bvanevery]

Your story is similar to what I've seen with several other INTPs (myself included). They seem to have trouble in formal education settings, being a priori averse to being inculcated with knowledge by an external authority.

Academically I didn't have any problem doing Cornell for 4 years. But it was a hard school, and the database practicum I took 2nd semester my senior year was particularly brutal. I said, I will NEVER work that hard again, until I am paid a lot of money to do it. Paying all that money to have someone slave drive you? Forget it! Ridiculous. 4 years of a tough Ivy League school had certainly made me competent at teaching myself stuff, I didn't need the school anymore. But the school was still worthwhile when I did it.

I almost had a double major worth of courses, I just didn't have the GPA in various CS classes. I always did fine on the actual programming "lab" classes, instead of the math and theory stuff. The math classes were boring as hell, taught by the most uncharismatic professors, and at the worst times of the morning. The CS theory stuff, someone who was floating in and out of CS instead of sticking with it, was probably going to have a disadvantage I think.

Socially Cornell was a disaster for me. The workload was too much to leave me any room in my life to grow socially at all. I still occasionally have the nightmares, but all I can do when I wake up, is work on the present. My advice is unless you're already "Mr. Party", don't go to a school that's too hard. You'll regret it the rest of your life.

 

[Alias]

*drops the mike*

*takes notes*

 

[Urakro]

These are not questions of theory, they are questions of trial and error. The solution is simple: get out of the comfortable sphere of theorizing inside your head. Let go of the arrogant trust in your ability to "think" and theorize. Think less. Test the limits of experience.

*drops the mike*

ISTP's are good at that. It works for them.

INTP's need to plan, blueprint, and design. Then that foolproof method needs to be implemented. It's just that real life doesn't always give INTP's enough chances or time.

 

[Tannhauser]

I have experience in this area. Both my parents are physicians. I've worked in hospitals, done clinical and basic research, shadowed loads of physicians, read many books written by doctors, volunteered in ORs and ED...

All of this falls under the category of career "thinking" or "planning".

Working in hospitals is "thinking"? You seem to have figured out that medicine was the wrong choice by trial.

 

[bvanevery]

When I was younger I kept quite elaborate engineering notebooks, writing things out in pen on quad rule. The point was to try to design computer games. I found over time, I had piles of notebooks and no working code. I stopped doing the notebooks. I wish that meant I produced a lot of working code instead, but mostly it didn't happen. Well it did in a few cases but those got destroyed by developer politics, and otherwise I don't have much to show in code for the years spent. Still, it wasn't wrong to ditch the notebooks. I realized I was generating far more theory than I could ever actually absorb into a coding production pipeline. They will be a legacy to a biographer someday, or just entertainment in my final years. "Look at this crap I wrote in my 20s, ha ha ha!"

I have gotten more done when applying myself to open source projects. Feelings of honor and altruism, the idea that someone could benefit from what I'm doing, and taking on that task in a professional manner, is likely to get me to do something tangible. The downside is the stage I'm at with https://urho3d.github.io/ is incredibly boring. What I've done so far amounts to boring QA Test Engineer type work and people do actually get paid for that, to bother with it. I'm just applying sheer discipline in the face of boredom for $0, so I give myself some credit for having gotten anything done at all. I've got some old laptops and I'm currently looking at "retro 3d optimization" to move to the next stage of the project. At some point I will start writing an actual friggin' game. Presently there's still a fair chunk of tech in my way.

I occasionally argue with one of my peers about the merits of doing things this way, as opposed to using off the shelf commercial products, but I do have a fungible vision that requires this. I think the "just get out there and do it" people have ruined the game industry. Or if they didn't ruin it, if it was already and by rights a pig, they have done nothing to advance it. They do slop, they can't move forwards in any big paradigm shifting way, they are constrained to being cogs inside of multi-million dollar budgets.

 

[bvanevery]

How do you like 3d graphics? Are you working on the hardware or software?

The nuts and bolts of 3d graphics is kinda boring now. I was much more into it in my early 20s, when it was all new and there was more to learn. As time goes on it's more like "yeah yeah yeah, square root optimization, sequential buffer, constant type, yadda yadda." "Long boring paper with too many equations for a real world implementation. Wake me when I need to know."

I deal with it in software. I came to a fork in the road where I realized I could only control what was going on by making 3D HW, that this is where the real power in industry lay. Going that route was way too dry for me, I wanted to make games. So I quit my 3d device driver job at DEC and the rest is ignoble history.

There may come a time when I try to make my own CPUs, for these primal reasons of industrial control. If you have to dance to NVIDIA etc.'s tune, they will spew ever more garbage for you to deal with and you're dead. They have the control. I try to march to the beat of their drums as little as possible but sacrifices of many hours in that direction are inevitable.

 

[Inquisitor]

@bvanevery:

Thx for the posts. I can really relate to not being motivated to code in my spare time. So far the only programming I've done has been in classes, but I've found the projects to be satisfying and rewarding overall. Give me a pad and pen and I can pseudocode any project fairly quickly. Once the code is written, there are never any architectural flaws or missing test cases. I still get plenty of bugs though... The planning is the best part in my experience, but I also think getting into the nitty-gritty of the code is rewarding in its own right (if less pleasurable) b/c it forces me to get out of my typical meta/abstracted mode.

I'm trying to figure out what kind of job I'd like. Some on INTPf have mentioned R&D jobs at large tech companies to be ideal, so long as the work is more on the open-ended side. This sounds about right to me, but the question is whether or not I'll actually be able to land such a job. I don't think I'd be happy working at a social media company for example, but I could be wrong...There's no question many of the forthcoming advances will be in robotics/AI. Might be cool to be a part of that. OTOH, this is all just speculation at the moment. I'll get a better idea once I'm in school. I plan on getting internships as well. Game design is unquestionably cool, but I don't know if it's for me. I do love gaming though.

 

[bvanevery]

I'm trying to figure out what kind of job I'd like. Some on INTPf have mentioned R&D jobs at large tech companies to be ideal, so long as the work is more on the open-ended side. This sounds about right to me, but the question is whether or not I'll actually be able to land such a job.

I never went that route. I think you have to make it at least to a Master's degree to get those sorts of jobs. I only had 2/3rds of a CS degree and was darned if I'd pay any more dues to academic institutions. I think I'm basically doing my own research. Good point is I have complete choice of pursuit. Bad point is I have a lack of monetary resources. That's solvable though, it's just a question of what I'll sully myself with. If I don't sully myself at all for awhile, it's possible that down the road the R&D will have achieved enough tangible monetary value that I don't have to compromise. People will just pay me for doing what I already do. Ideally they'd just pay me for games and I do the amount of R&D I think is appropriate for that goal.

There's no question many of the forthcoming advances will be in robotics/AI. Might be cool to be a part of that.

I have a few robotic ambitions, the primary ones being for home farming and home energy production. There's a lot of scrap wood lying around in National Forests that can be harvested for gasification. These ambitions probably aren't corporate though. They are about empowering individuals to own the means of production, and eliminating factories where they have to be employees. As I didn't actually get a HW background, and only barely know how to solder, these ambitions are on the backburner until I've got some money. Also realistically I need land for the farming project, and at least a larger vehicle for the wood harvesting project.

I'm a little concerned that between my serious commitment as a game developer doing R&D, my painting, and a desire to meet someone and have a family, that I won't have time for the farming and gasifying. But perhaps I can downscale the projects.

Sounding like the computer synthesized orchestral music is never gonig to get written, LOL. I rarely even try to get started on that, I've got a full plate already.

OTOH, this is all just speculation at the moment. I'll get a better idea once I'm in school. I plan on getting internships as well.

I had a lot of talents when I went to college, and thus no certainty of direction. So I went to a big liberal arts school where I could try a lot of different things out. "Trial", yes, but I did commit to a major my sophomore year like many people do. I was determined not to major in "undecided", as that gets long, and you can't count on other people to keep paying for your dawdling anyways. Saw a number of people who had become perpetual students and I didn't see it profiting them any. I planned to get my degree done in 4 years like expected and I did it.

One big bureaucratic mistake is I thought I was going to get formal art training at Cornell. I had applied to the college of Arts and Sciences and didn't realize the art classes were taught from the college of Art, Architecture, and Planning. When I got there, they wouldn't take me. I did show them a painting or 2 but I guess they didn't think I was good enough. I probably was, but I had no idea I was supposed to be preparing some kind of portfolio for this. I thought by gaining entry into Cornell I was already approved to do whatever I wanted. So I was running around trying to get all this new bureaucratic stuff done and found the door was shut in my face on that one. Maybe if I had regrouped at a later time I could have gotten in, but I didn't have that kind of sophistication then, nor anyone guiding me on the problem. I had a lot of other fires to put out, my 1st year. So that's another example of "error" where I didn't even get to make it to trial.

I've done a little bit about it over the years, and a lot more lately, but I'm running 20 years behind on my artistic development. Better late than never though.

Game design is unquestionably cool, but I don't know if it's for me. I do love gaming though.

Game design is a rough road because the game designer doesn't have a lot of control in the game industry. Thus I am indie.

 

[jar of tuna]

I've encountered INTPs who seem allergic to experience. It seems like most of them had early childhood experiences that produced a certain attachment pattern. I've dubbed the result Broccoli Syndrome, but it may be more accurate to use Dr. Seuss:

Spoiler

Many children don't eat broccoli while paradoxically having never tried broccoli with an open mind. Perhaps they choose to focus on their biological predisposition to alternatives packed with sugar, salt, fat, and bright colors. Perhaps they were never exposed to broccoli or forgot, if they were, or they only ever tried nasty boiled broccoli from a rusty tin can. Perhaps they've heard their opinion echoed by other children, who in all likelihood aren't themselves immune to the aforementioned biases + more unmentioned biases. Most likely, all of the above are at play to some degree, as we seek out those who share our opinions, beliefs, and values. Ignorance really is self-reinforcing.

How does an experiential heuristic work in the context of broccoli?

Spoiler

1. Try the broccoli. Do you like it? If yes, minor paradigm shift. If no, you can't rule out broccoli yet.

2. Try it in other forms. If you don't like it, you still can't rule it out yet.

3. Try it in other ways. If you don't like it, you can finally rule it out. But now you have a solid piece of data, so how far can you extrapolate it? Maybe it extends to the whole broccoli family. If you can exclude a larger category, it would allow you to focus on other things every time something from that category arose in the future. Exclusion is good. We like it.

4. Try a wide range of the broccoli family; cauliflower, brussels sprouts, cabbage, and kale. Do you like them? If yes, you can only exclude broccoli or members of Brassicacea you don't like. If no, you can rule out all of Brassicacea, for though you haven't tried the numerous remaining crops in Brassicacea or tried them in multiple ways or forms, you can interpolate to an acceptable degree.

5. Arbitrary-amount-of-time later, can you still be certain you don't like broccoli? No. You may have changed. Try broccoli. Do you like it? If yes, minor paradigm shift. If no, you get a lousy t-shirt with "FUCK BROCCOLI" on the front. You've earned it. Literally. You have a reason, to wear it. A reason[/] to hate broccoli and decline all future opportunities related to broccoli and possibly Brassicacea as well!

Reasons give you a foundation to stand on, which allows your confidence to increase because you can make better decisions faster, easier, and more comfortably.

You can identify whether this heuristic was used because the reasons given for rejection are rather specific and show that investigation occurred: "I don't want to read that book because I don't like the author." "I don't want to date her because her long term vision doesn't match mine."

From my experiences, these INTPs tend to be stuck in a process something like this:

Spoiler

*A wild broccoli appears!*

1. Am I comfortable as I am? If yes, don't try the broccoli. If no, think of dozens of alternatives to trying the broccoli in an attempt to find an easier solution.

2. Have any of the alternatives negated broccoli? If yes, don't try the broccoli. If no, try the broccoli.

3. Did I like the broccoli? If yes, minor paradigm shift. If no, stop broccoli exploration and extrapolate bias to extend to Brassicacea based on broccoli alone.

This process works great for logical things. Why use an 18 step process instead of a more efficient 3 step process? But it's the wrong tool for the job when it comes to experience.

Most of the input never reaches the point where experience occurs, which rarely actually addresses uncertainty and is markedly inefficient. Also, nothing prevents a past unexplored input from re-entering the system, and the process itself spawns categorical bias, which breeds misunderstanding and missed opportunity.

You can tell whether this process was used because the reasons for rejection are overgeneralized: "I don't want to read that book because books take too long to read." "I don't want to ask her out because girls are too needy."

Now... Experiential heuristics are far from perfect. In general, curiosity involves putting yourself in new and unfamiliar situations, and cats die if they get too comfortable and act without thinking or get too excited and jump off the deep end too soon. This can get you in quite a bit of trouble, for example, if you approach ethics with both a truly open mind or lose your foresight. "Am I meant to be a mass murderer/rapist/armed robber/car thief? Only one way to find out!!!" "Hey, I'm drunk and I've only known you for 2 weeks, but let's get married! I've always wanted to know what it's like to be married!"

Yet all in all, they're undoubtedly a beneficial component of one's toolbox, and they're useful in not just finding meaning, but living it; being it, and they're more accurate than asking others about their experiences. Logic and reason in tandem as a foundation gives you rock solid confidence that allows you to let your ego loose and pursue your goals; it gives you Actual Merit.

 

[jar of tuna]

I'm curious how you reached your conclusion, Tannhauser.

I haven't figured out how to catalyze this change in others so that the value of experience is recognized, as it's always been intrinsic to me afaik. I'm guessing it's an INFJ thing. They seem to focus on individual experiences in vacuums because of some inability to group them into the same category or relate them to each other. For example, they don't place trying a new food in the same category as trying a new hairstyle, nor does successfully trying a new food provide any encouragement for trying other new things.

In more limited experiences of mine, they view confidence built on a foundation of mostly reason as egotistical because instead, their confidence is built on a foundation of mostly logic. For them to have the same confidence without a foundation of reason would indeed be egotistical, because it's in an unfamiliar realm.

They're like a groundhog leaving its hole once a year to see if it sees its shadow and then going back into hibernation.

 

[bvanevery]

The broccoli post makes me want to AXE MURDER some broccoli.

Food doesn't generalize to other stuff. Why do you expect it to? Food is a pretty trivial input / output system and low consequence, unless you're violently allergic to something. In which case, you shouldn't be doing experiential proof, as it can kill you.

I might be interested in your run down of a situation that isn't trivial / actually matters. But just trivializing all of life's problems as being "broccoli" is, um... stupid.

Books do take too long for me to read. I'd better jolly well have some evidence that it's gonna be worth it.

I can't stand long internet videos either. Ain't gonna sit there waiting for someone's very slow communication unless it's really worth it. Like, how to fix my car.

I prefer web searching to gather information. I'm good at skimming text fast.

If I made some kind of opposite post urging a FJ to "think it through", would there be a point? I don't see why there would be. You simply like doing things your way. Absent a problem, there isn't some reason to do anything different. I really wonder at some of the posts where people talk as though they have a problem. Really? Sure about that? Sure you aren't just being asked to do a lot of crap in an industrialized worker bee society?

 

[Jennywocky]

Ironically, I used to hate broccoli as a kid (I'd get ill), but eventually retried it as a young adult and now it's one of my favorite vegetables. So this whole tangent has an unexpectedly apropos subtext for me...

Anyway there seems to be a recurring theme here about what balance needs to be struck between logic versus experience.

While my first response is to logic things out, I noticed by my 30's that it had somewhere become of prime importance to test all of my ideas with actual experience/reality; I notice it much when participating in these forums where it's easy for folks to get hung up on "What should make sense" but might not necessarily pan out IRL (so either they hold erroneous ideas and/or are chagrined by how the best ideas aren't working correctly). In fact, I've found myself becoming impatient when people aren't looking for tethers between ideas and reality.

The two things aren't really in competition, they work in tandem -- it's like my rationality is my "headlight" where I just "see things" that make sense to me, helping to illuminate a situation or problem, and then experience is my validation loop. Without illumination, you might miss viable understanding (and available paths/opportunities), and without exploring it to see what's REALLY there you might build off a faulty understanding and end up in a dead end.

 

[Tannhauser]

Now... Experiential heuristics are far from perfect. In general, curiosity involves putting yourself in new and unfamiliar situations, and cats die if they get too comfortable and act without thinking or get too excited and jump off the deep end too soon. This can get you in quite a bit of trouble, for example, if you approach ethics with both a truly open mind or lose your foresight. "Am I meant to be a mass murderer/rapist/armed robber/car thief? Only one way to find out!!!" "Hey, I'm drunk and I've only known you for 2 weeks, but let's get married! I've always wanted to know what it's like to be married!"

You are definitely correct that heuristics can be misleading. Which brings us to an interesting point: some people interpret my stance as "you should be a complete idiot and just drift around and do impulsive stuff".

The thing to note is that a lot of the mental machinery we have now has evolved way slower than the world we live in. This means that you will get fooled by your own intuition. Hence, it will take some disciplined thinking to figure out when to think, and when to do. None of the extremes are optimal.

The mistake lies in thinking that progress is proportional to how much you theorize.

 

[bvanevery]

The mistake lies in thinking that progress is proportional to how much you theorize.

Life is like a gigantic maze, and many of us are trying to find a way through it. At times I think it is important to appreciate how deep the maze can go.

 

[Tannhauser]

By the way – a very enlightening thing to do is to write down all that theorizing somewhere, and look at it again 2-3 years later and see how far it actually took you. I have done that, and it's completely hilarious to read it afterwards. You feel so fucking clever when you write it, but when you read it later you see it for what it is: just walking in small circles, swimming in a tiny aquarium of reality.

 

[bvanevery]

But do you have some log of "let's do something practical!" to show any contrast? It's easy to pick holes in 2 paths when you didn't actually walk 1 of them.

 

[Tannhauser]

But do you have some log of "let's do something practical!" to show any contrast?

But of course. It is the rules and heuristics I have gathered through experience, trial and error.

When you do stuff, you fail at certain things, succeed at others. Later on, when doing challenging stuff, you have knowledge to fall back on about what actually worked.

 

[Brontosaurie]

I really wonder at some of the posts where people talk as though they have a problem. Really? Sure about that? Sure you aren't just being asked to do a lot of crap in an industrialized worker bee society?

THIS

 

[QuickTwist]

You know what makes life easy? Being brought up in an environment and family structure where you are instilled with knowing how to solve problems of life and just know that whatever you do, it is not the end of the world. Its a lot different when you have parents forcing a naturally rebellious open minded individual to do things that they hate and yell at them to do XYZ and physically abusing this child and then telling them that they did it because they love that individual.

bvanevery and Inquisitor need to consider themselves lucky that they they had parents who were willing to let their children learn in the way that works best for them. I'm guessing my childhood would look pretty chaotic to some of you. You can consider me admitting that I am jealous of the things you two are able to do and accomplish as an apology.

/rant

 

[Brontosaurie]

Its a lot different when you have parents forcing a naturally rebellious open minded individual to do things that they hate and yell at them to do XYZ and physically abusing this child and then telling them that they did it because they love that individual.

I feel you man.

*Dude With Feelings*

Still a kid in some ways, well into my 20's. A very disgusting type of creature for spirits to inhabit.

 

[bvanevery]

bvanevery and Inquisitor need to consider themselves lucky that they they had parents who were willing to let their children learn in the way that works best for them. I'm guessing my childhood would look pretty chaotic to some of you. You can consider me admitting that I am jealous of the things you two are able to do and accomplish as an apology.

I got dealt a pretty good hand on the privilege, learning environment, parental skills and role model dept. I agree that if kids don't get those things, they're climbing uphill in a big way. Plenty probably never see over the hill.

My hand wasn't perfect though. I had a biological mother who pretty much skipped out when I was 3. Dad got custody and that was unheard of in the 70s. In the USA I think there were only 6000 men in that club back then. So she musta been pretty dingy in the eyes of the court! It did mess me up some, but my Dad was smart enough to send me to a shrink when I was a kid, which helped a lot. I bet I would have had some trouble as a kid no matter what, on account of being smart, but I don't think it's any mystery where the original social stunting came from. Fortunately I've had plenty of time to live and work on myself, so that particular start is hardly destiny. I'd be lying if I said it wasn't a long term influence though, even today.

 

[Inquisitor]

You know what makes life easy? Being brought up in an environment and family structure where you are instilled with knowing how to solve problems of life and just know that whatever you do, it is not the end of the world. Its a lot different when you have parents forcing a naturally rebellious open minded individual to do things that they hate and yell at them to do XYZ and physically abusing this child and then telling them that they did it because they love that individual.

bvanevery and Inquisitor need to consider themselves lucky that they they had parents who were willing to let their children learn in the way that works best for them. I'm guessing my childhood would look pretty chaotic to some of you. You can consider me admitting that I am jealous of the things you two are able to do and accomplish as an apology.

/rant

Yeah, I was and am blessed. I had a very hard time "getting along" with my parents (ISFP and ISTJ), but that's a far cry from being physically abused.

That said, I'm a firm believer in the Law of Karma. Curses and blessings. Action = Reaction. Reincarnation. Just b/c I was blessed in this life does not mean I will be blessed forever. If I'm not careful, those blessings will eventually run out. The choices I make will determine what happens to me not only in this life but in my future lives as well. That's why it's up to me to limit the accumulation of bad karmas and hopefully become a more refined and advanced individual as I grow older. But I could f*ck up along the way, either through fate or through self-perversion, and then end up in a "lower womb" next time around. That's the way of universe.

In my opinion, no one is immune from the Law of Karma. If your life truly is and was shit, you're paying off some karmic debt from nastiness committed in previous lives. Eventually though (whether in this life or subsequent ones), that debt will be paid off through austerities and you'll be entitled to blessings.

For the record though QuickTwist, if you were born in America, have a healthy body, aren't lame/dumb, currently have all your material needs met, you're doing ok relative to the rest of the world.

 

[Yellow]

I don't understand how experience is really an option for most INTPs. Maybe some of you are supported financially by someone, but the rest have little choice but to face the world. You just live your life. You get hopefully decreasingly shitty jobs, you learn and see what you can, and you take some time off to be lazy. Theory is amazing, but if you don't test it, you can never know if you're right.

I'm only 32, and I've done and seen so little compared to some, but I think I'd be a hollow little soul if I had restricted myself to theory.

 

[bvanevery]

Computer programming jobs award scads of money which can allow a self-sufficient burn rate for a very long time, if one is frugal. Until a dot.com bust happens and then you learn something completely different, like signature gathering, because at least nobody's telling you what to do. Then eventually you might learn how to fix a car, how to live out of a car, and how to get food stamps.

What does this say about theory and experience? I've created enormous room in my life for theories, by choice. Some of those choices were career oriented, how to apply my intelligence to make money, when I had other options of what I could have done. I did have a B.A. in Sociocultural Anthropology after all, not computers, so I definitely chose computers as a career. I don't regret that, but they aren't everything, and dealing with the crappiness of computers has come to be my main personal demon.

I've also had survival problems that have swept me along and forced various experiences. A number of things, I don't feel like I'm in control of what happened. I responded to circumstances and I was where I was at the time. Some of the things, I eventually did something about. Other things, they still haunt me.

I guess in final response to Yellow's statement, I felt I had to go look up her type, if it was in her profile. Ok, xNTP, close enough. I'm inclined to ask, how would you turn off all the theorizing? How would you not have your brain nearly constantly working on the circumstances of your life? Even if exhausted by the dumbest possible job, like using a bus to get to some other town and the connection is running 3 hours late, I'm thinking this isn't optimal, I can't make money this way, I'm not gonna keep living like this. Admittedly I'm an over the top N, more than any other characteristic, but I can't imagine why the tapestry of life would ever stop, in my thoughts. Not like someone ever hit me with some really good drug or took a scalpel to my brain or tortured me or otherwise found a way to fundamentally repress who I am. I think! That's what I do.

 

[Ex-User (13503)]

The broccoli post makes me want to AXE MURDER some broccoli.

Spoiler

Food doesn't generalize to other stuff. Why do you expect it to? Food is a pretty trivial input / output system and low consequence, unless you're violently allergic to something. In which case, you shouldn't be doing experiential proof, as it can kill you.

I might be interested in your run down of a situation that isn't trivial / actually matters. But just trivializing all of life's problems as being "broccoli" is, um... stupid.

Books do take too long for me to read. I'd better jolly well have some evidence that it's gonna be worth it.

I can't stand long internet videos either. Ain't gonna sit there waiting for someone's very slow communication unless it's really worth it. Like, how to fix my car.

I prefer web searching to gather information. I'm good at skimming text fast.

If I made some kind of opposite post urging a FJ to "think it through", would there be a point? I don't see why there would be. You simply like doing things your way. Absent a problem, there isn't some reason to do anything different. I really wonder at some of the posts where people talk as though they have a problem. Really? Sure about that? Sure you aren't just being asked to do a lot of crap in an industrialized worker bee society?

Tuna was my first account. Forgot the password. *ears sag in shame*

Was I really talking about food? Citing individual personal examples and preferences doesn't refute the heuristic structure that you've aparently misidentified. I could have used anything from clothing to transportation. How does one recognize a problem within their own paradigm if they refuse to leave it and actually gain perspective? Do you realize the irony in even mentioning the term "worker bee society" after essentially arguing that "New experiences are bad, m'kay? That's just your way of doing things. Methodological relativity is great" as if you were a drone talking to a soldier?

Arguably you should have chosen to do higher math during the free time afforded to you by taking the less demanding math course you were placed in, which would have allowed you to be more functional and more likely to have been a physicist as originally intended.

Testing theory doesn't mean turning off theorizing, it just means that theorizing beyond that point actually has a more legitimate basis in reality. It really is complimentary and additive.

I don't understand how experience is really an option for most INTPs. Maybe some of you are supported financially by someone, but the rest have little choice but to face the world. You just live your life.

I admittedly made my first post with a particular someone in the audience in mind, a friend still in high school. I think it's a life stage thing. Basically, an undergrad and younger phenomenon and possibly the reason a lot of INTPs find themselves as eternal students hopping from career to career, and why many seem to pathologically dismiss the unfamiliar in an offhand way, even if the unfamiliar is a personal recommendation from a close friend with their interests in mind. "I don't know what I want to do, but I also won't try new things, so I'll just passively bounce along until...?" Meanwhile so much potential is wasted and so much stress experienced that it's sickening.

 

[bvanevery]

I can't really get back into this 8 months later, but on 1 point I'll try:

Arguably you should have chosen to do higher math during the free time afforded to you by taking the less demanding math course you were placed in, which would have allowed you to be more functional and more likely to have been a physicist as originally intended.

You find me an American senior in high school exercising that kind of self-discipline unbidden... and not only will I be shocked, but he will certainly not be an INTP. People go to college to learn how to have that kind of self-discipline, and many don't acquire it. No, for the most part it's the adults who have to get the pedagogical goals / tracking right at the K-12 level. Teenagers don't have any perspective on what they "should" be doing for eventual projects a few years down the line.

Not like reality requires me to be a physicist, nor that I won't get around to inventing something in the course of my life. Given the blind spots I've seen in a lot of technical types, I think I'll take comfort in my sociocultural anthropology / liberal arts background. At least I understand human factors.

 

[Ex-User (13503)]

I can't really get back into this 8 months later

That's actually good. Hopefully your former perspective is gone completely.

Teenagers don't have any perspective on what they "should" be doing for eventual projects a few years down the line.

Ignoring the absolutism of "any," which is in the same vein as "always" and "never" statements...

Exactly. Because they haven't developed an experiential heuristic. K-12 education in the U.S. is rooted in outdated Hegelian philosophy. Memorize, recite, obey, monitor, discipline, teach the whole cohort the same thing at the same rate, age and alphabetical order of last name determine classroom structure. Compound this with the recent, trendy, and reactionary additional components of Security! (TM), "I'm special," and participation trophies (It doesn't get better either. What's coming next is "The computer algorithm says you are destined to ___"). This is obviously antithetical to experience. Also, as an anthropologist, you know this idea of purely age-based perspective limitation has limited biological basis given the ages people take on adult roles and responsibilities with efficacy in other cultures. The U.S. has basically extended childhood by a decade in many respects.

Your issue is with educational philsophy, not the school or your teachers, etc. In the absence of such a heuristic, your only hope was to come up with the notion on your own. Didn't happen. And who's to say you wouldn't have just slacked off in the advanced course anyway, and gotten slapped with a bit more shock than you did? Without a supportive experiential framework, you'd have probably flamed out anyway.

People go to college to learn how to have that kind of self-discipline, and many don't acquire it.

At least I understand human factors.

Speak for yourself...? Honestly, the first one is just a pure unsubstantiated generalization, and I'm questioning the second one somewhat given what I had to explain above.

Let's not pretend that living a shitty existence is a desirable thing. Sure, there's nothing wrong with it and the person doing so will be made aware of various positive aspects of it that they can use as fodder for rationalization and intellectualization, but it's not desirable (asceticism by necessity isn't asceticism by choice), and it's not the result of something like a decision of one person in a bureaucracy made many years ago.

 

[bvanevery]

Also, as an anthropologist, you know this idea of purely age-based perspective limitation has limited biological basis given the ages people take on adult roles and responsibilities with efficacy in other cultures. The U.S. has basically extended childhood by a decade in many respects.

I'm given to understand that in earlier centuries in Europe, young people (boys?) went into trade apprenticeships. So there was something to focus them on, to get adult behavior out of them. Whereas we don't have anything like that in adolescent industrial cultures.

As for other world cultures, we can't really benchmark what "adult" behavior was like in those cultures compared to our own, without some ethnographies of what "adults" at the age of 16 actually act like. I'm not familiar with any literature on this myself. Are you?

Your issue is with educational philsophy, not the school or your teachers, etc. In the absence of such a heuristic, your only hope was to come up with the notion on your own. Didn't happen.

Not sure about separating philosophy, school, and teachers, but I agree that I didn't have a way of navigating what math courses I should be taking, for my raw ability at the time.

And who's to say you wouldn't have just slacked off in the advanced course anyway, and gotten slapped with a bit more shock than you did? Without a supportive experiential framework, you'd have probably flamed out anyway.

False. I was a high achiever in most subjects, and I liked most of them. I also already had the experience of slacking off in math class. As a junior in high school, I finally got a "D" instead of an "A" for it. The math finally got hard enough that I couldn't just do it in my sleep anymore. I corrected my attitude, there were no more bad grades in math.

As a senior in high school I wasn't the problem with what I could do. I got into Cornell U., pretty much aced all the stuff you need to do to get into somewhere like that. Had the skills in math, science, writing, Art. Had lived abroad, did martial arts, had some claims to well roundedness. Had a list of awards from various high school contests an arm's long.

I never thought of myself as an overachiever, but I was certainly an achiever.

Not becoming a physicist isn't some big loss for me personally. It's not like I haven't done other technical things. Going into college, I probably had too many talents to be limited to one preconceived direction. Even that direction, in its original conception, was "lasers and holography". Physics and Art, not just physics. So worlds were going to collide somehow, somewhere. I went into a big liberal arts school deliberately, so that I'd have a lot of choices for figuring things out. Now I'm designing a programming language and trying to write 3d games. How far off from "physics and art" is that really, in a hand wavy sense? Not that far.

Let's not pretend that living a shitty existence is a desirable thing.

What's a shitty existence?

 

[Ex-User (13503)]

I'm given to understand that in earlier centuries in Europe, young people (boys?) went into trade apprenticeships. So there was something to focus them on, to get adult behavior out of them. Whereas we don't have anything like that in adolescent industrial cultures.

As for other world cultures, we can't really benchmark what "adult" behavior was like in those cultures compared to our own, without some ethnographies of what "adults" at the age of 16 actually act like. I'm not familiar with any literature on this myself. Are you?

I'm talking the developing world, tribal societies, etc. Fuck, not even that far. Just look at pre-industrial U.S. with 16 year olds running homesteads. Google? And I'm not sure what bearing the industrial status of one's culture has on one's supposedly age-based biologically pre-determined ability to function as an adult independent of experiential value. Seems fallacious.

Spoiler

Not sure about separating philosophy, school, and teachers, but I agree that I didn't have a way of navigating what math courses I should be taking, for my raw ability at the time.

False. I was a high achiever in most subjects, and I liked most of them. I also already had the experience of slacking off in math class. As a junior in high school, I finally got a "D" instead of an "A" for it. The math finally got hard enough that I couldn't just do it in my sleep anymore. I corrected my attitude, there were no more bad grades in math.

As a senior in high school I wasn't the problem with what I could do. I got into Cornell U., pretty much aced all the stuff you need to do to get into somewhere like that. Had the skills in math, science, writing, Art. Had lived abroad, did martial arts, had some claims to well roundedness. Had a list of awards from various high school contests an arm's long.

I never thought of myself as an overachiever, but I was certainly an achiever.

Not becoming a physicist isn't some big loss for me personally. It's not like I haven't done other technical things. Going into college, I probably had too many talents to be limited to one preconceived direction. Even that direction, in its original conception, was "lasers and holography". Physics and Art, not just physics. So worlds were going to collide somehow, somewhere. I went into a big liberal arts school deliberately, so that I'd have a lot of choices for figuring things out. Now I'm designing a programming language and trying to write 3d games. How far off from "physics and art" is that really, in a hand wavy sense? Not that far.

"False"

Issues with absolutism should be obvious. Hypotheticals can't be proven. Stop being silly. You might as well bring up baby Hitler.

And then it just appears to devolve into rationalization. Basically, it boils down to being able to honestly answer the following question completely truthfully and without regret: "Have I lived a good life?" If that answer, for you, were a yes, you wouldn't harbor any bad feelings towards your old teachers, for example.

What's a shitty existence?

One without health, knowledge, respect, competence, autonomy, inner peace, friendship, community, purpose, happiness, creativity, or rationalizing that one has these things when in fact they do not.

 

[bvanevery]

Issues with absolutism should be obvious. Hypotheticals can't be proven. Stop being silly. You might as well bring up baby Hitler.

This is not a hypothetical. This is me actually knowing my own life experience, and you second guessing it. Why you think you need to do that, and cannot accept someone else's say-so about what they were like as a teenager, is a conundrum. Anyways you seem to think you know me better than I know and knew me, and you're wrong. I wonder with how many other people you make statements about "what they could have been like, what could have happened to them", are told you're wrong, and you won't accept it?

Basically, it boils down to being able to honestly answer the following question completely truthfully and without regret: "Have I lived a good life?" If that answer, for you, were a yes, you wouldn't harbor any bad feelings towards your old teachers, for example.

I'm finding this to be a non-sequitor.

Seems rather fishy anyways to assign a binary value to one's life, "good | bad". Assigning a scalar from 0 to 100 would still be fishy. How about a vector of 0s to 100s and we can argue about how long N the vector would need to be, to be worth bothering to talk about? And then whether you'd weight the different fields of the vector differently depending on... who knows what? Your mood? Your hunger level? The latest thing you currently fear?

Finally, your if..then claim is completely unproven.

 

[bvanevery]

One without health, knowledge, respect, competence, autonomy, inner peace, friendship, community, purpose, happiness, creativity, or rationalizing that one has these things when in fact they do not.

"Shitty existence" is missing all of these things, or missing only one of these things?

BTW you've just described a vector of at least N=11. If we change that last clause to "self-honesty" then N=12. For the home audience let's simplify the field numerology. Aspects of one's life shall be rated from 1 to 10. Thus we see that the vector of one's life merely as you've established so far has 10^12 = 1,000,000,000,000 = a trillion possible values.

 

[Ex-User (13503)]

This is not a hypothetical. This is me actually knowing my own life experience, and you second guessing it. Why you think you need to do that, and cannot accept someone else's say-so about what they were like as a teenager, is a conundrum. Anyways you seem to think you know me better than I know and knew me, and you're wrong. I wonder with how many other people you make statements about "what they could have been like, what could have happened to them", are told you're wrong, and you won't accept it?

This is hilarious. I do see how my second mention of rationalization in that post could be interpreted as an attack, and I apologize if that's the case. It wasn't meant that way. Any defense mechanism could be used in its place, I just chose rationalization because I thought it would be the easiest for you to understand.

Otherwise, if it's not a hypothetical, surely you can prove it, right? "What if" "What could" "What would" are literally hypotheticals lol. "Could have" "Should have" "Will" "Might have" are literally hypothetical responses. They are not evidence-based "did" or observable present tense verbs. Like, look at the definition and examples of hypotheticals or something. I'm not sure how else to help you.

[I'm finding this to be a non-sequitor.

Seems rather fishy anyways to assign a binary value to one's life, "good | bad". Assigning a scalar from 0 to 100 would still be fishy. How about a vector of 0s to 100s and we can argue about how long N the vector would need to be, to be worth bothering to talk about? And then whether you'd weight the different fields of the vector differently depending on... who knows what? Your mood? Your hunger level? The latest thing you currently fear?

Finally, your if..then claim is completely unproven.

"Shitty existence" is missing all of these things, or missing only one of these things?

BTW you've just described a vector of at least N=11. If we change that last clause to "self-honesty" then N=12. For the home audience let's simplify the field numerology. Aspects of one's life shall be rated from 1 to 10. Thus we see that the vector of one's life merely as you've established so far has 10^12 = 1,000,000,000,000 = a trillion possible values.

Why are you trying to quantify subjective qualia?

And indeed, if you were truly comfortable and accepting, you couldn't blame anyone. There'd be no reason to. The past is beyond your control. Why let it bother you? Like, you've claimed you're not really bothered by the whole not being a physicist thing, yet you still blame others for it, so something's still there. I have no clue what it is, and it may not be very big or overbearing, but it's there. The box makes noise when I shake it.