The Shadow

[Cognisant]

Not the archetypical shadow of Jungian psychology, instead I'm referring to that which it's derived from, the culture of denial & repression permutating every mind I've ever encountered. How wonderfully symbolic the term "shadow" is, because just like our literal shadows they're always there, but rarely noticed, just something we're accustomed to, blinded by familiarity.

Study your shadow, list your flaws, your fears, your shames.

It's incredible how much effort is wasted on denial and/or repression, my current favourite example being how terrified we are of being afraid, how ashamed we are of our own supposed cowardice, which is deliciously ironic considering that it's the denial/repression of fear that results in all those nasty side effects.

Fear itself, honest, shameless, accepted fear, serves only to motivate.

Also note that the successful repression of fear is essentially psychosis.

Isn't this fascinating, the possibility that flaws traditionally tackled with willpower driven denial/repression could instead be handled with a perceptual shift; for example when trying to break a bad habit one would first wholeheartedly accept that they have a problem and that it is exactly that, a problem, then actually breaking the habit would be almost trivial given that not breaking the habit would drive said person nuts.

 

[Anthile]

Well, it's common sense that before you can solve a problem you have to admit that it exists.


Furthermore, the habit to repress and deny our negative traits simply exists because this 'shadow' makes it harder to find a mate. It all can be explained with evolutionary psychology, a field in which I sadly am not really knowledgeable at this point. In the end, it comes down to how we deceive our fellow men.

 

[Cognisant]

...Yes, fascinating, and I would very much appreciate it if you explain how evolutionary psychology correlates to the Jungian shadow (perhaps I'm off my rocker and thinking it's something else entirely) however what I'm trying to spark a discussion on is how we deceive ourselves, internally.

After all in the absence of an inherent self other than the result of ones immediate history, the opinion one has of oneself is almost entirely responsible for shaping who/what said one is, although rarely in accordance with one's conscious intent, e.g. if one believes oneself to be a cynical or open-minded person, one will act in accordance with their belief, however doing so does not make one's opinion inherently better, which is assumedly was the intent.

 

[Anthile]

If we believe Richard Dawkins' thesis of 'The Selfish Gene' to be true, which I do, then we can assume that every gene has the inherent need to remain stable, aka to survive. This means that our bodies are actually just extensions of the 'will' of our genes to preserve said genes - vehicles. Which then again leads to the conclusion that we can say our bodies have three primary objectives:

1. Spread our genes through sexual reproduction (copying)
2. Preserve our genes inside of our bodies (survival)
3. Preserve our genes inside of our relatives (protection)

Of course there is a lot more stuff going on, especially with mutations. Oh, and then there are memes. Memes can sometimes mess around with this three basic functions or corrupt them. Sometimes they are so powerful that they are able to completely 'overwrite' said functions. 'Suicide' would be such a meme. The reason why newspapers rarely print suicide news is because it's quite literally infectious.

So, to find the best possible mate we present ourselves as 'fit' as possible. This is quite a complicated process because our perceptions are flawed and facts are hidden. So you might perceive others as fitter than you are which might be justified or not. Usually a big penis or big breasts are a symbol for fertility and thus fitness. That can be deceiving because through mutation your body could give you a huge penis but without being notably fertile because that is more cost-efficient for your body and your mate won't realize this until it is too late.
Now the point is that with a consciousness such as the human one, you are able to figure out that you actually do deceive in one or other way and from this point on you are concerned with how you can hide flaws.


^All of the above is actually way more complex and frankly spoken, my knowledge about it is quite limited at the moment.

 

[Da Blob]

First of all I believe you are familiar with the work of Eric Berne? Implicit in his model presented in "I'm OK, your Ok is the "shadow" in the form of the negative "P-A-C.

Berne mapped interpersonal relationships to three ego-states of the individuals involved: the Parent, Adult, and Child state. He then investigated communications between individuals based on the current state of each. These interpersonal interactions he called transactions; certain patterns of transactions which popped up repeatedly in everyday life he called games.
His seminar group from the 1950s developed the term transactional analysis (TA) to describe therapies based on his work. By 1964, this expanded into the International Transactional Analysis Association. While still largely ignored by the psychoanalytic community, many therapists have put his ideas in practice.
In the early 1960s he published both technical and popular accounts of his conclusions. His Structures and Dynamics of Organizations and Groups in 1963 examined the same analysis in a broader context than one-on-one interaction.

Wiki

Hmmm I did not know this...

Berne wrote a series of papers and articles on intuition, describing in one popular exposition his apparently uncanny ability to guess the civilian occupation of soldiers from just a few moments conversation with them. His musings on the faculty of intuition led to his groundbreaking work on transactional analysis.

Personally I do not give much credence to Evolutionary Psychology. It really is nothing more than politically correct speculation. It can never be tested or validated scientifically.

EDIT: If one followed the train of thought concerning denial that is presented in this thread, one might end up with a version of the Twelve Steps...

 

[NeverAmI]

Within the past few months I have started fighting my extreme social anxiety. It was getting to the point of not wanting to leave my house, agoraphobia.

I think my biggest fear is that there is no survival of my consciousness in any way, shape, or form after death. Death itself doesn't necessarily scare me unless I come to the conclusion that we don't exist past death. I have been in a motorcycle accident and almost died, some say I should be dead, and that has made me feel closer to death, given the idea more substance, but nothing has really changed on my perspective.

Another fear is that I will never accomplish anything that benefits the world, not just mankind, but anything to do with Earth and its inhabitants. My own personal existence by itself doesn't help the world in any way, I am a human who consumes the resources of the world like a cancer, I feel like I need to prove my worth, to prove that my existence is not a disease on this planet.

As of right now, I am contributing to the disease of humanity. I am contributing to the overabundant excess that ravages at the cost of trivial desires of humanity. There HAS to be something more than this. Our selfishness overflows from the kettle of humanity and corrupts everything it spills upon.

There has to be a way to move past this selfishness, to exist in an enlightened sense while still technologically progressing, and there has to be some way to share that enlightenment to the masses.

I fear that my scope is not wide enough, that I don't have sufficient knowledge to make my existence worthwhile. I fear that I will die just another human that contributed to the ultimte demise, or that humanity never really mattered one way or another, just another extinct species that either destroyed themselves or couldn't harness the power they discovered.

 

[Da Blob]

You have cause to hope, if you choose to do so.... Social Anxiety Disorder is a real thing and there are medications that can really help.

I am a Christian, a former atheist, and I am still a skeptic...

There is a spiritual dimension to this universe and I will not be so presumptuous to try to define all that goes on in it, but there are a variety of ways to explore it...

 

[warryer]

You know its odd that you post this topic. For whatever reason I decided that I was going to find some drugs and go on a little trip. I use to learn more about myself and the world in which I live.

The lesson learned this time was that I am not being honest with myself. I wasn't even aware that I was doing so. It was a ground shaking realization.

It was my inspiration to post this: http://intpforum.com/showthread.php?t=6334

I really like the use of genes and memes here. These seem only to cloud the truth of your very essence (or spirit.... your ineffable self).

Would it be fair to say that once the realization of such shadow "problems" existing automatically "defeats" them?

@Never

What is stopping you from not being the cancer?

 

[NeverAmI]

@Never

What is stopping you from not being the cancer?

Limited comprehension. I could become totally self reliant, which would help fulfill part of my goal, but ultimately I expect more from myself than just that.

 

[wadlez]

As you know an INTP's shadow comes from his repressed functions, primarily Extroverted Feeling. Introverted Thinking is directed opposed to Extroverted Feeling you cannot have an entirely logical perspective on many subjects, especially a view which you have taken to advance a subjective theory or goal that does not directly oppose your feeling functions perspective.

This sounds goods on paper and people may read something like this and think they understand it. You do not truely understand this untill you actually apply it to yourself. Its not a vague general explanation, its something you need to experience for yourself to truely see its effects.

About a month ago I had a massive revelation while I was reading liber novus. Before this revelation I had read jungs The Psycholical Types and also have been into MBTI for years and thought I knew about the shadow. The revelation showed me that I had no idea, I actually experienced and witnessed my own shadow for the first time and saw the massive affect it was having on me.
So much of my thought which I was under the delusion of being logical, was actually corrupted by my shadow. I have been building up these logical theorys and logical models which shaped my life day to day, I believed that developing in this way was leaving this immature Feeliing type self and view behind and I had advanced into something greater. The revelation felt like running up and a flight of stairs for hours, turning around to look down to check how far you have gone only to see that you have not taken a single step.

When you experience your shadow you see how these repressed functions always have as much say in your conciousness as your primary function, the repressed energy just finds another route to find expression in your conscious mind.

 

[Dormouse]

I have no fears, and therefore no shadow. Blinding patch of sunshine, I am.

( I will refrain from posting a serious response until I feel like it. )

 

[cheese]

wadlez:
Could you elaborate on experiencing your shadow please? How exactly did this experience come about, and what was it like? How did you recognise your shadow's influence?

 

[wadlez]

I was home alone reading liber novus, as I was reading it became really hard to concentrate, I couldnt pay attention for more than 2 lines. I had these feelings of anxiety, depression and helplessness, I was compelled to switch off and sink into my depression rather than continue trying to read. I have had this before (I used to cycle on and off being depressed), It became too much so I stopped reading and went with the pull of depression (sad critical thoughts of how illogica people are and the futility of trying to have them understand or change the way the world is).

I tried to allow this anxiety to run its course to try and analyze the root cause, let go and let it take full control. It did and I was really down, completly destroyed, in emotional pain , I was replaying the regrettable or lower times in life and creating this image of myself or a self concept of this total loser; terrible at everything, rejected by everyone.
It was like a proganda film (not really), negative moments replayed tinged with a negative bias. In this stream of thought there was someone particular from my highschool who I imagined viewing me as shit.
It was around now that I suddenly saw my shadow for the first time. This guy from my school is generally the opposite to me in many ways, he primarily prides himself on popularity, reputation etc generally appears to be very in tune with Extroverted Feeling and judges the world on such. I on the other hand like to spend my time studying, thinking about weird things, pursuing strange ideas and have this super logical world view which see's subscriptions to groups and lifestyles primary concerned with ones appearance as thought shaping and stupid.

I was living in denial, the self concept I had created was oblivious or ignored what someone like this guy from highschool or what people in general would think of me. For example I would prefer to stay home on the weekends and read rather than go down town. It was at moments such as this that I was stricken with anxiety and would have to remind my self of how I was doing what I wanted, How I was in the situation due to my MBTI type and other things. I would remind myself of this then also logically break down what and why people go down town, how stupid and meaningless these relationships are and how animalistic and predetermind there lifestyle is compared to mine.
Looking at many of the theorys which would dominate my thoughts, they would all circulate around things like sexuality, popularity, social psychology, building up the world model required for me to maintain a positive self concept.

Finally to sum up the revelation, It was seeing how what I perceived to be logical theorys and ideas I thought were motivated by my Subjective Thinking, were just giving the repressed Extroverted Feeling energy concious time. It was seeing the alternative self concept that a Extroverted Feeling type would have of me which I was giving no time to mend or build up. I became aware of how my consciousness is always distorted by this negative feeling of anxiety of what others were thinking of me, how I was running counter to my feeling energy and this had a influence of making me nervous and suddenly feel inferior in social situations. For a brief moment I had encapsulated all of this into a general feeling, this was my shadow. It felt amazing how everything all came together and explained so much, how I was so blind and how my running from Extroverted Feeling energy is so futile (repressing anything for that matter).

I hope that made sense, thats the best I can manage right now

 

[Anthile]

If we believe Richard Dawkins' thesis of 'The Selfish Gene' to be true, which I do, then we can assume that every gene has the inherent need to remain stable, aka to survive. This means that our bodies are actually just extensions of the 'will' of our genes to preserve said genes - vehicles. Which then again leads to the conclusion that we can say our bodies have three primary objectives:

1. Spread our genes through sexual reproduction (copying)
2. Preserve our genes inside of our bodies (survival)
3. Preserve our genes inside of our relatives (protection)

Of course there is a lot more stuff going on, especially with mutations. Oh, and then there are memes. Memes can sometimes mess around with this three basic functions or corrupt them. Sometimes they are so powerful that they are able to completely 'overwrite' said functions. 'Suicide' would be such a meme. The reason why newspapers rarely print suicide news is because it's quite literally infectious.

So, to find the best possible mate we present ourselves as 'fit' as possible. This is quite a complicated process because our perceptions are flawed and facts are hidden. So you might perceive others as fitter than you are which might be justified or not. Usually a big penis or big breasts are a symbol for fertility and thus fitness. That can be deceiving because through mutation your body could give you a huge penis but without being notably fertile because that is more cost-efficient for your body and your mate won't realize this until it is too late.
Now the point is that with a consciousness such as the human one, you are able to figure out that you actually do deceive in one or other way and from this point on you are concerned with how you can hide flaws.


^All of the above is actually way more complex and frankly spoken, my knowledge about it is quite limited at the moment.

http://www.ted.com/talks/dan_dennett_on_dangerous_memes.html

 

[NeverAmI]

I was home alone reading liber novus, as I was reading it became really hard to concentrate, I couldnt pay attention for more than 2 lines. I had these feelings of anxiety, depression and helplessness, I was compelled to switch off and sink into my depression rather than continue trying to read. I have had this before (I used to cycle on and off being depressed), It became too much so I stopped reading and went with the pull of depression (sad critical thoughts of how illogica people are and the futility of trying to have them understand or change the way the world is).

I tried to allow this anxiety to run its course to try and analyze the root cause, let go and let it take full control. It did and I was really down, completly destroyed, in emotional pain , I was replaying the regrettable or lower times in life and creating this image of myself or a self concept of this total loser; terrible at everything, rejected by everyone.
It was like a proganda film (not really), negative moments replayed tinged with a negative bias. In this stream of thought there was someone particular from my highschool who I imagined viewing me as shit.
It was around now that I suddenly saw my shadow for the first time. This guy from my school is generally the opposite to me in many ways, he primarily prides himself on popularity, reputation etc generally appears to be very in tune with Extroverted Feeling and judges the world on such. I on the other hand like to spend my time studying, thinking about weird things, pursuing strange ideas and have this super logical world view which see's subscriptions to groups and lifestyles primary concerned with ones appearance as thought shaping and stupid.

I was living in denial, the self concept I had created was oblivious or ignored what someone like this guy from highschool or what people in general would think of me. For example I would prefer to stay home on the weekends and read rather than go down town. It was at moments such as this that I was stricken with anxiety and would have to remind my self of how I was doing what I wanted, How I was in the situation due to my MBTI type and other things. I would remind myself of this then also logically break down what and why people go down town, how stupid and meaningless these relationships are and how animalistic and predetermind there lifestyle is compared to mine.
Looking at many of the theorys which would dominate my thoughts, they would all circulate around things like sexuality, popularity, social psychology, building up the world model required for me to maintain a positive self concept.

Finally to sum up the revelation, It was seeing how what I perceived to be logical theorys and ideas I thought were motivated by my Subjective Thinking, were just giving the repressed Extroverted Feeling energy concious time. It was seeing the alternative self concept that a Extroverted Feeling type would have of me which I was giving no time to mend or build up. I became aware of how my consciousness is always distorted by this negative feeling of anxiety of what others were thinking of me, how I was running counter to my feeling energy and this had a influence of making me nervous and suddenly feel inferior in social situations. For a brief moment I had encapsulated all of this into a general feeling, this was my shadow. It felt amazing how everything all came together and explained so much, how I was so blind and how my running from Extroverted Feeling energy is so futile (repressing anything for that matter).

I hope that made sense, thats the best I can manage right now

WOW, that is a great description. Around 19-20 years old my heart was broke by a girlfriend and I have been single since then, I tried to suppress my intellect and romantic interests which actually completely inhibited my social abilities, funny how they all interact with each other. I am finally starting to open up romantically again, but I have a lot of fear that I won't be able to study or learn enough in a relationship.

I often feel hopelessness in humanity and our ability to progress in the most efficient way possible, without trivial quabbles and insecurities.

 

[Cognisant]

building up the world model required for me to maintain a positive self concept.

I'm not sure if we're thinking the same thing here but it seems we're heading in the same direction, my revelation was that the shadow encompasses what could be called a denial complex, i.e. that in the pursuit of a positive self image (self-security, confidence, peace of mind, etc) a great deal of cognitive effort is spent fighting reality, denying that which one finds discomforting. It's selective framing, only perceiving or accepting the perception of, information that doesn’t conflict with oneself, for example someone considered violent by hir peers wouldn't necessarily consider themself violent, self-comforting delusion is an easy trap to fall into, like a glass cage in the ocean.

Other self-comforting delusions:
-I don't get lonely.
-Their words don't hurt me.
-I'm not scared of death.
-I'm not antisocial, just shy.
-I'm not lazy.
-I don't have strong emotions.

...there's probably hundreds more but they're hard to find, hard to admit.

 

[Agent Intellect]

Denial is a strange defense mechanism for me. I'm sure there are things I deny, but for the most part, I've always had the problem of never allowing myself to get away with anything. Most times, when I start attempting to rationalize an action to myself, I end up catching myself in the denial. Even when I was an alcoholic, I never through that I didn't have a problem - most of my related depression stemmed from the self hatred that grew from knowing I had this problem and lacking the willpower to overcome it.

The existentialists might call denial bad faith. I would be inclined to agree. Denial is a rather willful belief about oneself that one knows is untrue, yet continues to conduct themselves as if it's true. The problem is, one has to know simultaneously the truth and lie, because they have to know the truth in order to formulate the lie - they aren't simply unaware that something is not true. Lying to ourselves is as much a way of attempting to control our reality as lying to others. It is essentially using ourselves as a means instead of an ends, as in Kantian ethics.

 

[wadlez]

I am finally starting to open up romantically again, but I have a lot of fear that I won't be able to study or learn enough in a relationship.

I have the same thing, not sure if I will be able to be content just sitting watching tv etc