The pain, wonder, and mystery of not having an Fi.

[BigApplePi]

I would like to tell you a personal story and then ask if this changes your mind at all.

I don't believe in shadow functions. And neither did Jung.

The issue of this thread is one of not having an Fi. Here is a story that occurred yesterday but without too much detail. Yesterday my wife goofed up. When travelling she normally zips up the cat carrier with the cats inside that we travel with. But the last two times she neglected to lock the carrier. Unloading the car usually is not a smooth operation and I observed the cat carrier wasn't locked and one cat escaped. I got real mad at my wife, but is was pure emotion, not very conscious, so it's debatable whether that was Fi.

Today I recalled the incident after some effort. I knew it happened but I couldn't recall the feeling. I couldn't feel anger and hardly recalled what happened. I wanted to tell a friend so with a lot of effort I recalled the story I'm telling you, but still no feeling. What replaced the feeling was the effort of a search for a solution. I had to
(1) Prepare to talk to my wife ahead of time.
(2) Ask her to be responsible about the cat carrier.

This I had not done before because
(1) I failed to recall the incident, forgetting or repressing it.
(2) Had no memory at all of the feeling.

I had no Fi. I had no Se either. I had to really work at coming up with a solution (yet to be tried next time we travel) using Ti. In using Ti, I intuited my wife just often forgets to be responsible ... may I call that Ne?

There you are. An illustration of Fi mystery. Do you buy it?

 

[Cherry Cola]

Interesting, I don't have Fi in my stack but I can recall emotional states along with events, in fact the two are often intertwined to the point that they can probably not be distinguished. When I spontaneously reminisce the first thing going on in my head is a recollection of the entire happening; the sum of its components are expressed through some kind of distinct qualic sensation. Same thing happens with nostalgia but nostalgia is a more specific form of recollection with a more specific feeling always involved in it.

And If I don't feel nothing about an event then I usually begin to feel if I dig a little deeper into it anyway. Worse, I also remember - in the sense that I know the specific "feel" of it - the general mood and the feelings of other people to. I can't always make out their faces but I can usually make out the gist of the expression they carry.

What you describe is totally alien to me :O

 

[BigApplePi]

Interesting, I don't have Fi in my stack but I can recall emotional states along with events

I can recall that there was emotion, but don't reproduce the emotion itself. I think it's overlaid with subsequent happenings.

, in fact the two are often intertwined to the point that they can probably not be distinguished. When I spontaneously reminisce the first thing going on in my head is a recollection of the entire happening; the sum of its components are expressed through some kind of distinct qualic sensation. Same thing happens with nostalgia but nostalgia is a more specific form of recollection with a more specific feeling always involved in it.

Not sure I follow that, but recall would be Si with a nostalgia flavor ... which is a new present feeling IMO.

And If I don't feel nothing about an event then I usually begin to feel if I dig a little deeper into it anyway. Worse, I also remember - in the sense that I know the specific "feel" of it - the general mood and the feelings of other people to.

Yes.

What you describe is totally alien to me :O

Are you able to say what makes no sense? Maybe I didn't describe it properly.

 

[Cherry Cola]

I can recall that there was emotion, but don't reproduce the emotion itself. I think it's overlaid with subsequent happenings.

Not sure I follow that, but recall would be Si with a nostalgia flavor ... which is a new present feeling IMO.

Yes.

Are you able to say what makes no sense? Maybe I didn't describe it properly.

Okay I was trying to describe something that I'm really not good at describing, here's another try:

Say I remember riding a boat with my family, as I am struck by the memory it comes in many forms that sort of flash before me, images, sounds, feelings, other sensations (such as the rhythm of the boats rocking and how its repetitiveness added a sense of perpetuality to the journey blabla). But I don't see or sense all of this, some types of sensation seem to hold a primacy over others in the mental process that I experience when struck by a memory. The most consciously recalled aspects I remember often being visual in their character, while other things such as smell is most of the time not something that stands out. All these aspects or sensations, conscious or unconscious add up to 1 "feeling", which feels very very distinct, as if though it really contains everything about the situation and accurately depicts it, yet is in fact indescribable and vague.

It is similar to when I stumble upon video-games I've had before (but lost at some point) in dreams. "Oh this game, how could I have lost and forgotten it? I remember it all now looking at the cover design." Whereafter I wake up and realize that the game did in fact not exist at all and that I can't recollect anything specific about it despite being able to recollect the feeling of feeling as if though I knew all about this imaginary game from the past when I was in dreamland. Yet that sense it present in real memories to, if I didn't have it I'd be totally lost, not sure it's deserving of trust, but what else is there? :S

Also I can reproduce the emotion itself a lot of the time, like hitting the replay button on a video; the intensity is never near the level it was upon the first view, but it is the same thing nonetheless.

What you say makes perfect sense btw, it just seems like a way of remembering that's very differing from mine, hence alien.

 

[Duxwing]

I remember what I saw, just like a movie. I can fast-forward, rewind, and replay it at will. Emotions can be rederived by recalling my past 'self' and simulating my reaction; the funny thing lies in being able to feel exactly what I felt, exactly where I felt it: the reverberating thud of my butt on the bottom of my Optimist hull the first time that I ever got into it in the water, the loud shTHUNK! of my Titan NERF rocket launcher on Christmas Eve, the high, smooth mound atop my Razer Mamba.

Sometimes, I can even play bits of music back in my head exactly as I've heard them: for example, the chorus of "Trigger" by Cryoshell.

You'll light day, you'll turn inside out (differences collide)
When you find your strength (find your strength)
Then all your feelings of doubt will disappear
It's time.

I don't just hear the lyrics, but the guitar, too, all in perfect sync. When I achieve this effect, I feel as though the music is playing directly between my ears; yet when I try to lip-synch the almost real voice in my head, my own words can drown out the song so that it either pauses or continues on at a higher tempo.

-Duxwing

 

[TimeAsylums]

Sorry to not provide an indepth post, but a little busy >_<
As far as the past 5ish posts goes, BAP is pretty much right on track.
Interesting cherry cola...sounds like a use of a lot of functions actually
@duxwing, past recall def sounds like Si

 

[Cherry Cola]

I make up classical music in my head going by that method. There are usually lots of different instruments involved... I don't even know their names. It sucks that I can't really play any instrument and can't do anything with the songs. I just remember them for a short while then they go away.

 

[TimeAsylums]

I make up classical music in my head going by that method. There are usually lots of different instruments involved... I don't even know their names. It sucks that I can't really play any instrument and can't do anything with the songs. I just remember them for a short while then they go away.

Seeing as youre infj, would you read archie/my theory on intuition on his AA thread? (P32 bottom) it is necessary for more N' dom to confirm "non conscious thought"

Fyi sounds like NiTi, or just Ni, but idk.

 

[Cherry Cola]

I read it, and had some opinions and thoughts popping into my head but they are too jumbled I have a hangover and must sleep for work tomorrow something :P

 

[BigApplePi]

Okay I was trying to describe something that I'm really not good at describing, here's another try:

This is why we are here. If we can't get it right the first time, we keep trying.

Say I remember riding a boat with my family, as I am struck by the memory it comes in many forms that sort of flash before me, images, sounds, feelings, other sensations (such as the rhythm of the boats rocking and how its repetitiveness added a sense of perpetuality to the journey blabla). But I don't see or sense all of this, some types of sensation seem to hold a primacy over others in the mental process that I experience when struck by a memory. The most consciously recalled aspects I remember often being visual in their character, while other things such as smell is most of the time not something that stands out. All these aspects or sensations, conscious or unconscious add up to 1 "feeling", which feels very very distinct, as if though it really contains everything about the situation and accurately depicts it, yet is in fact indescribable and vague.

That is okay. This "feeling" doesn't have to be analytically perfect in a lot of detail. It's a bodily sensation. Some writers/novelists are good at describing these things. I am not.

It is similar to when I stumble upon video-games I've had before (but lost at some point) in dreams. "Oh this game, how could I have lost and forgotten it? I remember it all now looking at the cover design." Whereafter I wake up and realize that the game did in fact not exist at all and that I can't recollect anything specific about it despite being able to recollect the feeling of feeling as if though I knew all about this imaginary game from the past when I was in dreamland. Yet that sense it present in real memories to, if I didn't have it I'd be totally lost, not sure it's deserving of trust, but what else is there? :S

Also I can reproduce the emotion itself a lot of the time, like hitting the replay button on a video; the intensity is never near the level it was upon the first view, but it is the same thing nonetheless.

What you say makes perfect sense btw, it just seems like a way of remembering that's very differing from mine, hence alien.

We are not all alike. So my way of remembering may not be what you remember or in the same way. But this thread is about emotions. Emotions are stronger than sensations or impressions. Perhaps emotions are linked to happenings of the moment and when those moments are gone, the emotions go. I can recall I had some emotion, but the emotion is not reproduced because the cause is no longer there. Some people may be better at recall than others.

 

[TimeAsylums]

"When people leave your space of physical/visual recognition, they are practically dead"


Oh what I'd give to evoke emotions for those when I depart, when I am away. Various friends and girlfriends alike seemingly able to to share on command, and weep in missing sorrow. I have no inhibitions against such an act, and can only bring about such great emotiom through my shitty writing. They make me feel awkward not, only pleasure in seeing that such emotion is real. I can easily consciously think "I will miss you," but it holds no sentiment whatsoever.

Regarding the quote, it is only real if you let it be, for perhaps a form of synchronicity exists within your unconscious mind (usually referred to as: feelings of the heart).

Seeing as I can't fall in and out of love (maybe infatuation) every day,
Perhaps Architect is correct, Fi in poetry.



my most recent invocation of heavy Fi, three months ago:

I was leaving a girl who i had been with for close to seven months, we were showering, she had been crying everyday leading up to this last day we had, i had wanted to show her my feeli ngs as well, but they wouldn't forcefully come, at some trivial point during the shower i broke down crying and couldnt stop for over 30 minutes.

I suppose you could call it a break in Fe, nonetheless

I want the goddamned full range of emotion, ive indulged in the world of physical Se, ive tried to feel the zen and mysticism of Ni, I can force external roads of Te,

My favorite remains Fi.

Fyi, I am something of a narcissist, and i want it all.

 

[Words]

I think Fi is the most useless of function-attitudes. This whole thread is absurd.

In general, extraversion is best. The ONLY function where the introverted version is arguably better, is Thinking. And even that one could be argued. Introverted feeling has to be the most useless of things.

I also like to think about the 'usefulness' of each function. I think it's a very difficult question. Personally, as someone who feels burdened by having Fe, I can see a lot of benefits in Fi. Having Fe or even any 'extroverted' function itself is being dependent on the environment and the changes, dynamics and 'moods' of the environment. Relying on the external means less self-initiative and self-control I think. Fi can sort of just "will" things. It directly motivates one to do something that you're not directly interested. It's like having your own generator as opposed to using the city's electric system. Also, Fe doesn't really help with understanding your own emotional states. Fi, i think, has the simple yet important element of really understanding your own internal emotional system. That's why I think they tend to be 'mature' than Fe types in a way. Lately, I've been pretty angry at society because of the values it rubbed on me---values that I now think are stupid. I think that if I were an Fi type, I wouldn't have been affected so much by the 'wills' of society and that I would figure out what matters to me all by myself.

And, not to demean Ne or anything, but Ni stomps Ne in terms of the explosiveness of ideas by a long shot. Ne is child's play.

 

[TimeAsylums]

And, not to demean Ne or anything, but Ni stomps Ne in terms of the explosiveness of ideas by a long shot. Ne is child's play.

I agree with the first whole paragraph, and unfortunately probably this too.
I(ntroversions will) vs. E(xternal stimulation).

Entp is the second most future looking/oriented type...second to the INTJ. heh damn Ni.

Only benefit of the Ne/EP:

Spoiler

Through these filters the outer world is incepted for us. Thus, an Extroverted Perceiver tends to be flexible in his perceptions, yet the Extroverted Judger tends to incept the environment in terms of the pre-existing concrete symbols. As we notice that the Extroverted Judgers tend to rely much more on the pre-established terms for their understanding of ideas. As for instance, it is very common for a Judger to say that they could not imagine the concept of yellow without the word yellow, yet very uncommon for a dominant Extroverted perceiver to make the same claim.*For this reason, we shall argue that the Extroverted perceivers, with a slight exception in favor of Introverted Perceivers, tend to collect the soundest information. The Extroverted Perceiver is different from the Introverted Perceiver in the respect that he confronts the external environment directly,*whilst the Introverted perceiver must first filter the environment through the apparatus of his own inner perceptions and then shift onto the Extroverted Judgment in order to make a decision. And only at that point he will be able to interact with the outer environment. Because of this, the Introverted perceivers tend to be the least spontaneous, as their access to the outer environment is contingent upon their inner perceptions which are remote from the immediate environment. Yet, the Extroverted perceivers, by contrast, which could be rightly deemed as an animus to the Introverted Perceivers tend to be the most spontaneous.*As aforementioned, the reason for this is that they do not require contemplation for direct action, as their perceptions are always in tune with the outer world.In this regard they are even more action oriented than the dominant Extroverted Judging types, who require a plan of action, or external decisions in order to turn their wheels. Yet the Extroverted Perceiver deals with the outer world unconsciously, as the perceiving functions are by definition unconscious. Thus, here again we notice that the EP type requires least contemplation to prepare for action of all 4. This leads to the sense of quickness the EP types tend to be renowned for. We should note that Extroverted perception can very easily be misunderstood for hyperactivity and inherent inability to focus because*information tends to be incepted into the mind of an EP in a torrential fashion. As there is no grid of extroverted judgment in the outer world of the EP.

rEality

Or to sum it up in Jung's (paraphrased words): Even though the extravert is more likely objective than the introverts subjective, no man who relates solely to objects can have deep inner affairs...as the introvert. etc.

 

[TimeAsylums]

Some clarification on Fi:


I do not claim that any type does not have emotions, obviously we all do. It's just that it's relative to how much each of us are in understanding and in touch with our emotions.

I know many of you are familiar with not "feeling passion." I'm not saying you don't have passion for things in this world, but that you may not feel that "intense burning desire" or whatever passion is usually described as.

I do wish I was more in touch with my emotions. I am sure many of you NTs get that "grey feel" of life sometimes, relatable to being nihilistic. It's just that some emotion sure would spark some color in my world sometimes. I'm sure some of you are even sometimes more "distant" than I am, not just with the world, but with feelings and people as well. I am sure you have been in moments (social moments, ex a funeral, or a crying friend, or anything) and that situation/person is actually really really important to you, and you do care about them, but you just can't muster any emotion or feelings.

Nor am I saying that feeling trumps everything else and that our thinking and intuitions should be disregarded, because ruminating on people and feelings is important as well, it's who we are. I think I already mentioned in posts above about moving around a lot/having to say goodbye constantly, i do wish I could feel more:

As a further afterthought: I am not saying everyone is/will be/has to desire Fi, I'm sure people envy/are jealous of other functions they don't have. For example someone desiring Te because they generally are well and succinctly spoken, or Ni insights, or Ne wit, etc... So I don't go around 24/7 missing an Fi, I'm just mentioning a quick rumination rant of envy-ish stuff.

 

[TimeAsylums]

I'm confused however as you are an ENTP why you wrote this?

I'm always seeking new experiences.

Ne encapsulates everything so quickly in the large, big picture sense.
What can't Ti hack down.

It all gets so old very fast.

I need the visions of Ni. I need to be enraptured by these.

I need the intense movement of Fi, without even realizing it.

I need the raw experience of Se, and just take it all in, but not fucking big-picture it via Ne-Si

I NEED MORE

I NEED IT

I NEED IT

Seeing the big picture is great and all (yada yada yada pros and cons), but it gets boring so quickly. I can't stand how nihilist-esque the feeling is. I want to be devoted, i want to feel passion, I want to be swallowed whole.

 

[BigApplePi]

@TimeAsylums

I need the visions of Ni. I need to be enraptured by these.

Why? If you have Ne and your brain approves why would you counter that with Ni? Seems to me your Ne fails to encompass this need. You already have Ni.

I need the intense movement of Fi, without even realizing it.

Tough. You need to value something highly. If you are so cool, your feelings are not conscious. You want something? You are exasperated? That is emotion. You don't realize that? Then you have no Fi. You realize it? Then that IS Fi!

I need the raw experience of Se, and just take it all in, but not fucking big-picture it via Ne-Si

Why don't you go suck a lemon? Then suck another. Come back here and tell us what you think the essence of lemon is?

I NEED MORE

I NEED IT

I NEED IT

Do you feel that is missing? What makes you think that isn't Fi?

Seeing the big picture is great and all (yada yada yada pros and cons), but it gets boring so quickly. I can't stand how nihilist-esque the feeling is. I want to be devoted, i want to feel passion, I want to be swallowed whole.

Yer already there unless you are faking. What do you want to be devoted to? I'm impressed with your devotion to this thread!

 

[TimeAsylums]

@TimeAsylums,

Why?

@BAP,

Because!

I'm always seeking new experiences.

also, you better stop trollin' me, old man. Or you've got another thing comin'

 

[BigApplePi]

@BAP,

Because!

also, you better stop trollin' me, old man. Or you've got another thing comin'

Oh yeah? I'll meet you out behind the barn and we'll see. You'd better bring some backup*.

_________________

*Bring your Fi.

 

[Reluctantly]

You can have Fi.

Think about how people and the world make you feel, as if you are a part of them. Think about all the interesting connections you have with people and why they do what they do and how that makes you feel. Think about how people feel and why they feel. Think about how beautiful people can be in doing what they do and how dissonant they can be in doing what they. Feel how you want to harmonize with them and find ways to by ignoring rules and authority that goes against this. Use this to create ethical practices for living that involve yourself and other people on an individual evolving basis that takes their world of struggles, frustrations, and sufferings into account.

Basically, immerse yourself into the human condition and the struggles that go with being human; and be motivated to act and understand based on that, instead of compartmentalizing people and treating them based on that.

*Something like that, anyway.

 

[TimeAsylums]

You can have Fi.

INSTRUCTIONS:

Yes, it's that easy. For Se just immerse yourself in the world. For Ni just go to church and do acid.

BAP already trolled me for this. lel.

lol @ anyone who claim to use all functions nilly-willy like it's nothing.

 

[BigApplePi]

lol @ anyone who claim to use all functions nilly-willy like it's nothing.

One can't use all those eight functions willy-nilly. Too difficult. One can use a couple of them and just exist out there and try to get along. But we are not animals. We have intelligence. That means using an extra effort to bring other cognitions to consciousness. We have to try them out no matter how difficult and see if they bring any advantages.

 

[Reluctantly]

Yes, it's that easy. For Se just immerse yourself in the world. For Ni just go to church and do acid.

BAP already trolled me for this. lel.

lol @ anyone who claim to use all functions nilly-willy like it's nothing.

Well I imagine that most everyone has the capacity to use them because we have higher intelligence and these functions are a kind of representation of the different types of higher intelligence humanity has. Philosophically, one would need to be capable of using a certain type of cognition in order to understand it; because how can someone understand how someone thinks, if they can't think the same? They can only speculate...

But people have inclinations and going against those inclinations is like doing something without motivation. So theoretically, you can still use all the functions, but some of them you will be inclined to use well, while the others you might do out of necessity because you really don't want to do them. And sometimes your life might change so that those things you didn't want to do before become things you do want to do now, while the things you wanted to do before become things you don't want to do now.

It would be strange to me if you really were incapable of using all the functions, but not so much if you thought so.

 

[Grayman]

TA

I'm not going to get into the Fi thing all that much because it might just confuse things.

It's all about what your attachments are. I suspect INTP have less attachments. I can feel emotion strongly when my attachments are affected. It is like PI and his cats.
The stronger the attachment, the stronger the emotions associated. Attachment requires putting subjective value in things. It is often hard for me to do this as it feels like I am lying to myself. How does one convince oneself that something is important?

Since the Buddhists came up with a method for removing attachments, perhaps the reversal would be a method for adding them.??

For me, I can enhance my emotions by concentrating on the things I find important and opening myself to a stronger attachment. How do I do this? Can you describe to someone how to find the muscle that moves your ears? It would seem impossible. But perhaps, now that you know the muscle you need to move, you may find it some day. Just keep trying. I can tell you that it will never be like a true Fi user, but it is something.

 

[Latte]

Maybe you're physically damaged or genetically incapable or something something something something.

BUT MAYBE NOT. STARE AT FI INFUSED FACE OR A BEAUTY DERIVATION BY FI REQUIRING IMAGE ALL DAY EVERY DAY, USE AS DESKTOP BACKGROUND. CHANGE YOUR MUSIC. ONLY LISTEN TO MUSIC YOU THINK IS COMMUNICATING YOUR INTUITIVE PERSON-ASPECT OBSERVATION DERIVED SENSE OF HOW FI IS (DON'T THINK TOO MUCH ABOUT IT OR ANALYZE IN JUNGIAN TERM BECAUSE JUNG WASN'T ENTIRELY CORRECT AND DON'T CARE ABOUT LYRICS). THE MOST EFFICIENT WAY TO COMPREHEND SOMETHING INCLUDES MIRRORING IT TO SOME DEGREE, AND EXPOSURE TO A COGNITIVE TASK INCREASES HOW AUTOMATIC THE MENTAL REORGANIZATION IN THE PURSUIT OF EFFICIENCY IS BECAUSE IT MUST OBVIOUSLY BE IMPORTANT IF YOU ENCOUNTER IT SO MUCH. DISENGAGE MINDSTATES WHERE THEY PRECLUDE ITS INVOLVEMENT WHEN YOU REALIZE YOUR MINDSTATE SUPRESSESS. IT CAN NOT COME TO CONSCIOUSNESS IF THERE IS NO SPACE, NO POSSIBLE PLACE FOR IT.


SOURROUND YOURSELF WITH IT, LIVE IN IT, BECOME IT, BE SWALLOWED BY IT, SWALLOW IT, IT.

INSTRUCTIONS

 

[EyeSeeCold]

Identity crisis?

I suppose certain music and movies can probably provide or elicit the experiences you're looking for, maybe even drugs... relationships.. but if you consume yourself with this uncommon side of yourself, you'll neglect your 'natural' temperament. Could end up pretty badly.

I do think self exploration can be positive, but this seems like desire not exploration.

 

[Cherry Cola]

I say make way through the great literary works of INFPs, since we all know Ne is vastly superior to Se it follows thus that the best dominant Fi is the one fueled by Ne.

Here's a list:

Albert Camus - The Stranger
Virginia Woolf - To the Lighthouse
Haruki Murakami - A wind up Bird Chronicle

 

[Grayman]

I say make way through the great literary works of INFPs, since we all know Ne is vastly superior to Se it follows thus that the best dominant Fi is the one fueled by Ne.

Here's a list:

Albert Camus - The Stranger
Virginia Woolf - To the Lighthouse
Haruki Murakami - A wind up Bird Chronicle

I prefer Ti works. "I before E except after C." It is so poetic. It really encapsulates the human condition. Even our rules suffer from error.