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The Law: relevent to everybody?

tom

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first off, sorry if this is already here somewhere but i havnt seen it in my months of lurking :phear:. Sooooo im gonna post.

Basicly ive recently been thinking some glaringly obvious things. Namely that "Law" is almost totally pointless (though possibly fun:)) individualy.

This is because: if one person (me for example) decides to break the law in whatever way i wanted to. If i am not caught in the act it cannot be proven that it was me. if it cannot be proven than the actual event (the breaking of a law) essentially never happened.
Also, in our great libertarian country(lol), conviction resides with a jury of 12 incredibly fallible people. Due to this, manipulation of emotion and some fuzzy evidence/a friend who is willing to commit perjury could easily see me walk with a totally clean sheet, out into the public to do whatever i want.

All that is required is planning and a cool head and the entire "justice" system collapses around its sole reddeming quality of habeus corpus as conflicting evidence can always be found (or manufactured.)


Im not crazy, just bored.
 

Kuu

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You know, cheating the system is the whole point of lawyers. Them (and marketing) are the worst professions of humanity... they are dedicated to lies and deceit...

Welcome to the forum.
 

Dissident

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I dont know if i should welcome you, if you have been lurking around for months you probably know the forum better than myself :p

About the topic: I wouldnt say its totally pointless, many people do go to jail and (lets hope) most of them were guilty. Consider that as technology progresses the chances of actually knowing what happened and who did it increase. Sadly this is leading to something maybe worse: Panoptism.

The problem for me is deeper: What good is it anyway? You send the criminal to prison, he doesnt bother us for a while, then he comes back... and keeps doing the same thing! Is the only thing that prevents people from commiting crimes the fear of punishment? its clearly not working.

Okay, i made my mind: Welcome!
 

Kuu

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The problem for me is deeper: What good is it anyway? You send the criminal to prison, he doesnt bother us for a while, then he comes back... and keeps doing the same thing! Is the only thing that prevents people from commiting crimes the fear of punishment? its clearly not working.

Repeated offenders should be banished to deserted islands in the middle of nowhere, without tools, clothes, food, or anything other than their naked selves. So they ignore the laws of civilized behavior and prefer to be primitive? Then they shouldn't reap the goods of civilization, and should lead their primitive lives where they can harm no one...

Surely that is more effective, humane, and way cheaper than life sentence or death penalty.
 

Dissident

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Repeated offenders should be banished to deserted islands in the middle of nowhere, without tools, clothes, food, or anything other than their naked selves. So they ignore the laws of civilized behavior and prefer to be primitive? Then they shouldn't reap the goods of civilization, and should lead their primitive lives where they can harm no one...

Surely that is more effective, humane, and way cheaper than life sentence or death penalty.

RAMÉN TO THAT!!
 

tom

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You know, cheating the system is the whole point of lawyers.

if this IS the case (I personaly agree with you) than the system is worse than pointless. It actually becomes more dangerous to trust the law then it would be to protect yourself and only yourself.
 

ShaiGar

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I agree. :D That's why crime should only be committed after thinking it out, and planning your witnesses.
 

tom

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so by that we can agree that the law only applies to those stupid enought to let it restrain them
 

tom

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*waves at other lurkers*
~hides behind wall in a ninja like fasion.~





------------------------------------------:phear:------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
that a wall btw^^
 

tom

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yay! anarchy for the intelligent!! :)
 

ShaiGar

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Except, I obey all the laws in order to stay off the radar for when I occasionally break them.
 

Dissident

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That would lead to the idea the main character in Crime and Punishment had: There are special people who should not be restricted by law since they are the creators that make humanity advance, and new things will most likely go against the old, common people should obey them.
 

loveofreason

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so by that we can agree that the law only applies to those stupid enought to let it restrain them

yup.

That would lead to the idea the main character in Crime and Punishment had: There are special people who should not be restricted by law since they are the creators that make humanity advance, and new things will most likely go against the old, common people should obey them.

Sounds good. ;)

Bring on the INTPocracy. :D

New slogan: INTP. Above the Law.

(OK, certain other NTs may also qualify.)
 

Kuu

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Oooh I can see the dystopian scenarios already!

I'd take NT's enlightened absolutism over SJ's panopticon police state any day of the week.

Unfortunately the panopticon is winning. Has anyone been to London recently? CCTV EVERYWHERE! :phear:

Edit: I thought chipmunks would rank up somewhere between the NF and the SPs. Them chipmunks... are not to be taken lightly...
 

tom

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mmmm enlightened absolutism.... uhhh i mean, yeh, right...ummm yes officer
 
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I disagree with that whole desert island idea, it is too much of a pain in the ass to do that. you have to pay guards to transport them, you have to pay gas for the boat, SOMEONE has to own the island. cheapest method of punishment: 10 feet of rope and a tree, or better yet, just an ax, that can be used over and over again. shoot, I would even DONATE an ax in order to keep capital punishment...
 

Kuu

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uhm... law is not (or should not) be about punishment, but about mutual responsibility.

Death penalty gives the wrong idea... that society is oppressive and out to screw you. Deserted island gives the right idea: you need to give, in order to get. If you don't give, you don't get. Simple.

Besides, there are plenty of other arguments against death penalty, so that proposal might I say is even less probable to happen on a large scale...
 

ShaiGar

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The age was formed of gold; in those first days
No law or force was needed; men did right
Freely; without duress they kept their word.
No punishment or fear of it; no threats
Inscribed on brazen tablets; no crowds crawled
Beseeching mercy from a lofty judge;
For without law or judge all men were safe.
 

Mischz

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The Law.

(Common or Civil?)

"Innocent before proven guilty" or "guilty before proven innocent?"

Political tool or social controller?

Too many flaws. In theory, in enforcement, in rehabilitation, in reentry into society.

Is it relevant to me? Why, hell does it matter even if I find it irrelevant. I will still be jailed if I did something it did not prescribe as "lawful" and doused the respective charges. (If I get caught, like someone pointed out.)

I mean if you start talking about "individually speaking", you will probably be unable to find any 'system' in this world which will be relevant.
 

tom

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Is it relevant to me? Why, hell does it matter even if I find it irrelevant. I will still be jailed if I did something it did not prescribe as "lawful" and doused the respective charges. (If I get caught, like someone pointed out.)





yeh thats unfortunatly where ythe idea becomes a bit tricky:(
 

EditorOne

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"All that is required is planning and a cool head and the entire "justice" system collapses around its sole reddeming quality of habeus corpus as conflicting evidence can always be found (or manufactured.)'


Let us know how it turns out.

The jails are filled with people who share(d) this theory, of course ... :-)
 

zxc

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ShaiGar said:
Except, I obey all the laws in order to stay off the radar for when I occasionally break them.

Yep, in my case school rules :)
 

ShaiGar

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"All that is required is planning and a cool head and the entire "justice" system collapses around its sole reddeming quality of habeus corpus as conflicting evidence can always be found (or manufactured.)'


Let us know how it turns out.

The jails are filled with people who share(d) this theory, of course ... :-)
Actually jails are full of people who smoked pot, or committed hot blooded crimes.

people who get caught doing a crime wrong, are idiots.
 

loveofreason

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The age was formed of gold; in those first days
No law or force was needed; men did right
Freely; without duress they kept their word.
No punishment or fear of it; no threats
Inscribed on brazen tablets; no crowds crawled
Beseeching mercy from a lofty judge;
For without law or judge all men were safe.

Where's the quote from?
 

Olba

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This is because: if one person (me for example) decides to break the law in whatever way i wanted to. If i am not caught in the act it cannot be proven that it was me. if it cannot be proven than the actual event (the breaking of a law) essentially never happened.

You have an obvious flaw here. Just because we don't have a physical someone to do something, it doesn't mean that something cannot happen.

That's like saying that if I close my eyes, the whole world disappears, not just from my vision, but from the whole existence itself.

Also, in our great libertarian country(lol), conviction resides with a jury of 12 incredibly fallible people. Due to this, manipulation of emotion and some fuzzy evidence/a friend who is willing to commit perjury could easily see me walk with a totally clean sheet, out into the public to do whatever i want.
The problems in this paragraph are so many that I doubt I can spot all of them. But I'll see what I can do.

1. manipulation of emotion only applies to those who actually use their emotions in judgment.
2. Creating fuzzy evidence that actually isn't spotted as being a forgery isn't exactly a child's play. Or why do you think "Catch Me If You Can" is still a classic? Well, I'll tell you. It's because the art of forgery takes skill.
3. A friend that is willing to help you and willing to break the law and possibly his own personal moral code is a rare find.
4. Doing whatever you want is a logical impossibility by definition. You cannot do anything that defies logic. Simple as that.

All that is required is planning and a cool head and the entire "justice" system collapses around its sole reddeming quality of habeus corpus as conflicting evidence can always be found (or manufactured.)
So basically your point is to show us that the system is flawed? Wow, I didn't know that before. Wait, didn't someone say something about the humans being imperfect? Oh damn, that kinda explains why the system is flawed and why it will be.

Simple, the system is not perfect, nor will it ever be. Nor does the system always serve justice. It's just a pile of compromises that make it all seem like it works. Which, in the end, is it's purpose. I mean, law itself is order, and we need order for our communities to stay in existence. Therefore, as long as we have any kind of an order, it doesn't matter how broken it is. It's just another excuse.

I think that all laws should carry the death penalty... we should just have a LOT less laws.

Ah, so you are to say that all crimes are equal? That is, if I steal a bread from the market because I'm starving, I'm as horrible as a serial rapist? Ok, good to know. You know, that implies that since I would be horrible if I break law in anyway, I should just go right ahead and break it in the worst possible way. And what's that, you wonder? Disorder.

Repeated offenders should be banished to deserted islands in the middle of nowhere, without tools, clothes, food, or anything other than their naked selves. So they ignore the laws of civilized behavior and prefer to be primitive? Then they shouldn't reap the goods of civilization, and should lead their primitive lives where they can harm no one...

If there is no one in there, then they will die of starvation eventually. So basically, you're pro-death sentence yet you say that your form of death sentence is more humane that death sentence? Nice, a contradiction.

I agree. :D That's why crime should only be committed after thinking it out, and planning your witnesses.

"Planning your witnesses", you say? But wouldn't it be best to have none at all? After all, witnesses can and will place you on the crime scene, meaning you are a potential criminal. Being a potential criminal is much worse than not being a suspect. After all, suspects don't have to have committed the crime, they can just be involved it in some form, whereas the criminal is the one who commits the act of crime.

so by that we can agree that the law only applies to those stupid enought to let it restrain them

What about those who are not aware of the laws? For example, small children.

And surely there are laws that are not restrictive at all. For example, the right for your own business is not restrictive at all. And by breaking it, you would restrict yourself or someone else from having their own business.

Therefore, there are also laws that are not restraining. So you cannot say that laws restrain people. If anything, laws guide people.
 

Dissident

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If there is no one in there, then they will die of starvation eventually. So basically, you're pro-death sentence yet you say that your form of death sentence is more humane that death sentence? Nice, a contradiction.
I agree with almost everything you said, except this. First, besides the fact that the island thing is posible (Of course there would be other people, what would it be? one island for each criminal? You drop them all in one and watch so noone escapes, they can live however they want there), it bases is one of the most valid punishments for criminals.

This is from a conference by Michael Foucault (Truth and Juridical Forms)

[...]Of this idea they are extracted, according to these theoreticians, four possible types of punishment. In the first place the punishment expressed in the affirmation: “You have broken the social pact, you do not belong more to the body of the society, you have placed yourself outside the space of the legality, we will expel you from the social space where that legality works”. It is the idea that is frequently in these authors - Beccaria, Bentham, etc. - of which in fact the ideal punishment would be simply to expel the people, to exile them, to destine them or to deport them, that is to say, the ideal punishment would be the deportation.
(Translation from spanish by Babelfish corrected by myself, its probably not perfect)

I think this makes perfect sense, we freely take part in a society and abide to its rules for mutual benefit. People are in their right to not agree with its laws, they are made my men and are not perfect as you said, so its not irrational to disagree with them. Once a person breaks the laws he implicitly states that he doesnt conform to them, so: "You dont want to live by the rules we established? Fine, leave."

EDIT: Its worth to note that jail is not one of the four types of punisment postulated by these theoreticians, prison has no theorical base whatsoever, happened kind of by accident from the use of "lettre-de-cachet" by the kings of France.
 

Jesin

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manipulation of emotion only applies to those who actually use their emotions in judgment.

Everyone uses emotion in judgment, just to varying degrees. Some use emotion in judgment much less than average, but they still do use it.
 

EditorOne

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"Also, in our great libertarian country(lol), conviction resides with a jury of 12 incredibly fallible people. Due to this, manipulation of emotion and some fuzzy evidence/a friend who is willing to commit perjury could easily see me walk with a totally clean sheet, out into the public to do whatever i want."

Nah.

I'm really tired, so please cut me some slack while I try to show you something in terms you can appreciate.

They are indeed fallible. They are so fallible you can't even begin to understand them. Yet you are confident you can manipulate them they way you want. It doesn't work that way. Your logic breaks down right from the beginning.

Think about the stupidest thing you've ever come across. It's so stupid your jaw drops, your mind stops working and you are at a loss for words to describe your reaction. And now your INTP brain goes to work and says "Why did this result occur when it is so mind-bogglingly stupid?" And you can't figure it out. Here's why: Just as stupid doesn't comprehend smart, smart doesn't comprehend stupid. It is like a blind-from-birth person trying to understand "an elephant." There is an essential, critical, lack of landing place for the concept because some basic equipment is just not there.

Now, take the person who did the stupidest thing you've ever experienced and put him on your jury.

I'm not thinking this is a situation that makes for as much complacency as you've been showing vis a vis jury outcomes. The lack of predictability is a factor well known to lawyers.

You've also left a few other factors out, including the prosecutor and the judge, neither of whom is likely to be as stupid as you'd hope.

In most jurisdictions, including federal, in the United States at any rate, any jury verdict can be overturned by the judge hearing the case if he believes it to be a preposterous outcome. That's a little known but potentially significant fact in the scenarios you've outlined. You might find a dozen people swayed by contrived emotion and perjured testimony; finding a judge who won't see through the contrivance and perjury, and, first, deal with it on the spot aided by the shrieks and objections of an outraged prosecutor, is your first hurdle. It's not as easy finding complete idiots sitting on the bench. Second, assuming the prosecutor is drunk and inept, the judge is still there when you think the ninth inning is over, quite capable of writing up the prosecutor for ineptness and overturning any verdict in your favor.

You won't be heading for the exits at that point, you'll be heading for the cells, and posting bail for an appeal is a lot more expensive and precarious than posting bail after an arrest. Then, you were presumed innocent and the bail was to make sure you turned up for your court proceedings. Now, you're a convicted felon. The rules changed.

But I repeat, let us know how you make out. :-)
 

Kuu

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If there is no one in there, then they will die of starvation eventually. So basically, you're pro-death sentence yet you say that your form of death sentence is more humane that death sentence? Nice, a contradiction.

There is no contradiction. I said we gave them nothing, not that the island is completely barren! They wouldn't die if they hunt, fish, or gather food from plants...
That's not a death sentence, that's a second chance for a free life! Maybe an animal life, but life nevertheless! Absolutely more humane. I'd rather be an exile that is free and "primitive" on an abandoned island than be restrained and bored to death in a "civilized" prison...

@ Dissident: You don't even have to watch them so they don't escape. On a sufficiently remote island, there are few probabilities of escape for someone without tools to build a raft/boat of sufficient strength to stand storms and inclement weather, to posses enough food and manage to keep it fresh for several weeks, with no knowledge of their location, and with no knowledge of sea travel or any instruments of any kind...

And if they do get back... you just kick them out again...

The problem with the social pact is that it is implicit. You are born within the land, and thus must abide the law. There is no choice. And you just can't go to another country, cause you need money, and have a "nationality", and lots and lots of immigration issues. Besides, even if you do manage to get to another country, you still have to implicitly agree on their own social pact...

It should be made explicit. There should be a point when they say "You are old enough to decide, we have raised you, educated you on our society and legal system... that was our responsibility. From now on you have responsibility for yourself. Your citizenship entails rights, but also obligations. Do you accept them?"
 

Olba

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There is no contradiction. I said we gave them nothing, not that the island is completely barren! They wouldn't die if they hunt, fish, or gather food from plants...
That's not a death sentence, that's a second chance for a free life! Maybe an animal life, but life nevertheless! Absolutely more humane. I'd rather be an exile that is free and "primitive" on an abandoned island than be restrained and bored to death in a "civilized" prison...

Umm, you said the following:
" Repeated offenders should be banished to deserted islands in the middle of nowhere, without tools, clothes, food, or anything other than their naked selves."

You know, deserted islands tend to be deserted for a reason.

And "middle of nowhere", I think that counts as somewhere in the Atlantic. Well, you know, if there're no significant animals with fur or skin on the "deserted island", they won't be able to survive the cold.

And without medication, they will eventually catch a disease or two and die.

And I doubt anyone would want to go there. You know, repeated offenders tend to be people like rapists and murderers. So how about it? Want to go live with a bunch of serial killers?

Point: Without medication and proper meals the prisoners will surely eventually die of a disease.
 

Kuu

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There are many islands that could be inhabited... But since they're in the middle of nowhere, and there's nothing to mine or whatever... nobody lives there. Who wants to be so disconnected from the modern world and with nothing to gain from it?

Actually the Pacific is larger and with worse weather than the Atlantic... and also with more islands ;)

I guess if there are no large land mammals around you could make clothes out of the skin of seals, or from feathers, or you know, make textiles from plants? Or just go naked :p Many people in tropical regions live practically naked their whole lives...

And who said anyone would want to go there? It is a punishment, after all...


Ehh I think I should get back on topic...

What do you think about the legitimacy of law? When is it legitimate and when is it "right" to break it?
 

Cabbo Pearimo

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As everybody's psychology varies, no, absolutely not.
 
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