The Joker Within

[TBerg]

Research suggests that those who have undergone tremendous stress throughout their lives have a strong fight-or-flight response on a hair-trigger. I am an example of that. Everything feels so threatening to me. I need to escape the source of my stress, but that feels treacherous and I know that I will further isolate myself on my own. I feel irreparable. The appearance of inanity on my part is evidence of the damage caused by the phenomena of which I write.

As for my atheism, I used to rebel against what I saw as a divine Hitler. Now I realize that part of that depraved nature is within me, and I acknowledge that human reality really is that deeply entrapped by falling short of goodness.

 

[Sinny91]

BTW, thanks for the interesting podcast. It was interesting to see conspiracism applied to psychological development.

Here is an interesting counterpoint to the motivation of conspiracism: http://youtu.be/JIQ3FPOD5xE

Jasun and I would call it 'paranoid awareness'... but you're very welcome... and I'll check out this counter part soon as I get a chance.

 

[Sinny91]

An explication of the word "sin":

http://youtu.be/foLz0D_EmBg

I'm often referred to as or called by the name 'Sin' irl..

I sometime's wonder what sort of influence a word such as that has over my being.

 

[TBerg]

I am going to call what I have Post Traumatic Progressive Syndrome.

 

[TBerg]

But even if that has truth behind it, I must work to find all the other things that lead to my pridefulness and falling short (sin), and having the grace not to abandon the truth of everything. I modern society, so many people want to be their own knight. I will just acknowledge there is something more powerful than me, which is manifested in love, faith, and hope. What I perceive as myself is actually a demon blocking my true self from manifesting.

 

[bvanevery]

As for my atheism, I used to rebel against what I saw as a divine Hitler. Now I realize that part of that depraved nature is within me, and I acknowledge that human reality really is that deeply entrapped by falling short of goodness.

I'm reading Mein Kampf right now. Don't be so quick to knock the guy. It's interesting to see what he was right about, like the importance of trade unions for a healthy functioning society, and where he went really off the deep end. If his self-description is to be believed he wasn't a knee-jerk kind of guy either. He claimed to examine a lot of sides of an issue before making a decision. He would have done well as a debater in internet forums, he was bright. Ultimately has to be a J though.

 

[TBerg]

I know too much about the depravity of Auschwitz and postwar commentary not to hold him in ultimate contempt, even if I am able to understand him to the same extent as serial killers and such.

If you are into Hitler, though, check out the Greatest Story Never Told, a documentary popular among the Alt Right. It is relatively well-done and provides more context for the ascent of the Third Reich, even if it is flawed in some places, such as Holocaust denial.

 

[bvanevery]

Hitler's development as a young man is interesting because he didn't start out with the various views he came to hold, at least how he tells it in Mein Kampf. So it's an interesting study in how someone eventually locks on to a set of decisions. Doesn't sound like he was born a monster, sounds like he was born an artist.

 

[TBerg]

According to the documentary, he was always a nationalist fanatic, to the point at which the Bavarian army refused to promote him. According to another documentary based upon US intelligence reports, he was into sexual "water sports" with a female relative. And according to a German history podcast, he was as irritable as me, easily having meltdowns.

He might have an interesting intellectual history, but it is hard to get away from the appearance of compensation for other parts of his life. I guess that kind of applies to me as well, sans the extreme sexual perversions.

 

[bvanevery]

According to the documentary, he was always a nationalist fanatic, to the point at which the Bavarian army refused to promote him. According to another documentary based upon US intelligence reports, he was into sexual "water sports" with a female relative. And according to a German history podcast, he was as irritable as me, easily having meltdowns.

He might have an interesting intellectual history, but it is hard to get away from the appearance of compensation for other parts of his life.

It would be interesting at what point in his life he was having meltdowns. Like, when he starts trying to win arguments with trade unionists in Vienna, at age 17? I was damn irritating when I was 17, and I'm sure he was too. He deeply resented their threats of physical force, indeed realizing he'd have to use even more force if he was to ever have impact on such people. But I can't help but wonder if it wasn't about his ideas so much as him being a prig. :-) He doesn't fess up to that in Mein Kampf at any rate. In the modern era, we'd just call him another jerk in an internet forum / chat room and he'd get banned by a moderator, until he learned to behave himself better. Back then though, people did things "analog", and there were some real issues at stake. Here, we generally argue over trivialities, at least by comparison.

Nationalism from the get-go, definitely comes across in Mein Kampf, even in his earliest reported self-conceptions. He sees himself as German and that being German is very important. First he has it in for the Marxists because they are trying to make Austria Slavic. They have ideas about the Internationale and aren't pursuing Germanic identity. Then he realizes most of the Marxist leaders are Jews and becomes anti-Semitic. But the original seed, as he tells it, was against the Marxist international agenda. Being German and doing German stuff is really really important to him for some reason.

The immediate historical background is France trampling German stuff, trying to annex more German lands and otherwise break up, destabilize, and "Fifth Column" whatever was Germany at the time. I could totally understand Hitler being a Francophobe, as the French were doing really nasty things to Germans at the time. The two powers had a history of vying for continental dominance. But somehow, anti-French isn't really the narrative of Mein Kampf, at least in the first few chapters I've read. Rather, the English translator supplied the historical context as an explanatory intro. I guess I'll have to finish reading to see how it all mattered.

I guess that kind of applies to me as well, sans the extreme sexual perversions.

I wouldn't call watersports an extreme sexual perversion. I'd call it a kink. It doesn't seem odd in a cross-species context at all. You should see the amount of time my dog spends examining urine, especially female dog urine. I know it's female by the extra 2 minutes he spends going over every bit of it. Think of it this way: whatever your religious ideas, your sex organs eject urine. So, uh, if there's something potentially sexual about urine, why should that be a big shock?

 

[TBerg]

A good reminder for me and everyone ele not to do that which we hate:

http://youtu.be/zezhdw_dNlU

 

[bvanevery]

That was an interesting if long way of looking at things. I hope I can say more succinctly: I have noticed that a lot of human beings approach "life / action / judgment" through emotionalism and/or inertia. This is touched on at the end of the video, about the espouser of a world view feeling "it's too high an emotional price to pay" to be wrong about something in their lens.

I think inertia is worth mentioning as well though - the claim that because something was already done some way, it should continue to be done that way. This shows a failure of imagination. I have wondered if it's indicative of low creativity, a certain dullness in how one uses one's brain. Is a plodding obstreperous bureaucrat born dull and then seeks a job that fits how their brain works? Or does a person become dulled by the institutions surrounding them? Especially if they have no drive, reason, or stake to oppose such systems and just "go with the flow".

Emotionalism and inertia are the key factors of human behavior that I find myself considering, when trying to enlarge the reach of secular groups such as the Western North Carolina Humanists. Let's face it, the crowd I'm in is small, and likes to argue and debate about stuff in a rational manner. This kind of orientation clearly isn't interesting to many people in the general populace, and we don't have any inherent "entertainment factor" to offer the masses when we engage our peers this way. It works for us but we're clearly a minority. We don't have the easy social fabric of the churches, where everyone's hanging out in proximity to the cultural concept of "God". Hey, whatever you're doing, it's about God somehow. We don't have the feel-good stuff or what the Skeptics call "woo", the buoyancy of invisible friends holding your emotional hand. And so, we are faced with some puzzles regarding human needs, because by default, we fail to answer a lot of them.

I think the problem is surmountable, but trying to enlarge the reach of a secular organization, requires stepping outside the box of our default comforts. What does an atheist do in a secularist organization, who doesn't particularly believe in a God, but doesn't particularly care to discuss or argue about such a thing either?

 

[Sinny91]

Hitler's development as a young man is interesting because he didn't start out with the various views he came to hold, at least how he tells it in Mein Kampf. So it's an interesting study in how someone eventually locks on to a set of decisions. Doesn't sound like he was born a monster, sounds like he was born an artist.

That book is far from the whole truth.

 

[bvanevery]

That book is far from the whole truth.

I'm sure, but it's a big part of the story, and something people tend to ignore. Why deal with an individual's self-description when one can just label him via their historical lens any way it suits them?

 

[Sinny91]

Haha, no need to lecture (I use the word lightly) me on that, I'm an anti semite according to most. I'm just very aware of the fact the Mein kampf was a propaganda piece.

Hitler wasn't really im control of his destiny.. he was selected as the PR rep of Nazi Germany.

Dietrich Eckart, amongst others, was the true mastermind.

Hmm, from Tbergs mini meltdown, to Nazi Germany.. I like. (The digression that is).

 

[TBerg]

Well, my mom enacted verbal vengeance this morning, "triggering" my dad to go on an alcoholic bender. Reality is so interesting.

Sorry to beat a dead horse.

 

[Sinny91]

Family aye. Love em or hate em, but you can't choose em.

Well, you can to an extent, but not to the extent that I'm sure we'd all like.

 

[TBerg]

Man, I really notice the effects of going without a day of exercise. It really is important. Especially if you want to avoid decadent behavior. It is a high that displaces other highs.

 

[bvanevery]

Although I agree that exercise is beneficial and a good thing to be doing regularly, your negative formulations of "needing a high" and "avoiding decadence" sound worrisome. Why do you need to get high? Maybe that's why you're afraid of some kind of "decadence", because you've got a basic sort of "get high" problem you're trying to manage.

If I have eaten lots of sugar, or to some extent if I've binged on video games, or in the past done truly excessive amounts of forum posting, it's usually because I'm avoiding something and trying to make that mental feeling go away. Forms of self-medication.

I think there are better ways to deal with the underlying problem than self-medicating, i.e. "trying to get high".

 

[PaulMaster]

Man, I really notice the effects of going without a day of exercise. It really is important. Especially if you want to avoid decadent behavior. It is a high that displaces other highs.

I fall apart pretty quickly when I skip workouts. 2-3 days off and I'm lost. We are a body before we are anything else. It pays to mind this fact.

 

[TBerg]

I am starting to get a nerve to do something that makes me want to develop some sort of passion. I hope I can rekindle the ember somehow. There has to be something left. I also need to continue learning how to truly humble myself. I need constant reassurance that things are okay, and I need to try to manage life while accepting some imperfections along the way. I really have trouble thinking that so many things around me try to kick me while I am in a vulnerable position. It is also hard not to be triggered into a spiral of rumination and negative interpretations that arise from the rumination.

At any rate, I am trying to resurrect something right now, and I am not talking about Jesus either.

 

[TBerg]

Well, I had another misunderstanding with my mom this morning, but I need to keep my mind on the ball, although my passion is dampened by the experience.

 

[Tannhauser]

Well, I had another misunderstanding with my mom this morning, but I need to keep my mind on the ball, although my passion is dampened by the experience.

Yeah one's gotta learn how to handle that shit. There will always be people trying to generate drama in your life. Let us not allow them to steal our focus!

 

[Sinny91]

Do you ever sleep?! lol

 

[bvanevery]

I'll put a pitch in for personal projects.

For instance, I've been building a frame for a Fresnel lens with a neighbor kid. Half of the project is learning how to work constructively with an 11 (?) year old and provide good training and examples for him.

I only got mad at him once, when he was trying to remove something from one of his bikes by cutting the shifter cable with a pair of wire cutters! I told him in no uncertain terms that was stupid, that there are screws to just undo to remove that sort of thing. That this stuff costs money even if he didn't pay for it, and even if he doesn't want to use the bike someone else may want to. I don't think it was wrong to get mad at him 1 time, I think kids should be shown some consequences. But I wouldn't want to make a habit out of that. Later I was more neutral or helpful about it, saying, "So I guess you haven't worked on bikes very much?" Yeah, no one's taught him anything, so he was winging it. Hope I can teach him to watch YouTube videos, he wasn't that interested in doing so before.

He's perfectly good at working with another person on something. His Dad builds houses and clearly has worked with him on other kinds of projects before. For instance they built a hovercraft with a piece of wood and a leaf blower. It's pretty cool!

What I'm hoping to get out of the Fresnel lens, is a way to weld #2 plastic. Then maybe I could make interesting stuff out of recycled materials. But if that doesn't happen, at least I'll have gotten a young man started on science and craftsmanship.

 

[TBerg]

Just when I feel okay, everything goes to hell in less than a minute. It totally screws up any prospect for development. It seems as though I will forever be trailed by my emotional infancy. What the fuck is wrong with me? Why do I have to have this whole emotional history wrapped like an albatross around my neck? Why does my foundation seem quake so easily?

 

[Sinny91]

Its less about what happens to you, and more about how you handle whats happens to you.

Stop wallowing and get a handle on it will you.

Telling you cuz I care.

 

[TBerg]

Working on the weakest point is easier said than done. I am indeed talking about how I react, and not about what triggers my reaction. I want to get to a point in which I can trust people and have the personal confidence to relate to them in a healthy manner, but I am not able to restructure my whole brain and psychological impulses very easily.

 

[bvanevery]

If you want a healthy life, you need long term healthy habits. Earlier you talked about developing some sort of passion. That needs to be grounded in something tangible; I suggested some kind of personal project.

 

[Sinny91]

If people keep breaching your trust, then you aren't going to be able to trust them.
Its not your 'fault'.
Could you expand on 'emotional infancy' ? .. only if you want to of course.

I'd much prefer to have the old Tberg back.

Maybe other people are dragging you down. Sounds like it.

 

[TBerg]

I am interested in writing about politics from a better angle. I am interested in the long-term survival of Western Civilization and have been watching Stratfor videos and Caspian Report and reading Thucydides. I read Matt Forney's book Confessions of an Online Hustler, which helped me see a path towards monetizing this interest. And I wrote half of a decent essay about fissures among "cultural libertarians" last night and hope to finish the rest of it tonight. It is semi-personal and relevant.

I am also making more chainmail jewelry, but it is not really personally rewarding.

 

[TBerg]

If my heart is so consumed by anger, how is it supposed to impel me towards the embrace of a course of study rather than an aversion to it? I really, really, don't want to be consumed by anger.

I feel so helpless. Why couldn't I have found the right job and the right people and the right habit before seeming to dig myself into more quicksand?

 

[Sinny91]

After much thought and consideration, I have decided that the best advice I could impart onto you .. would be this:

Spoiler

 

[Polaris]

Sounds like classical Fe-grip. I have learned long ago to steer away from any kind of work that will involve a great deal of emotional investment - I don't deal with my own, let alone other people's emotions too well, so I picked a career path that would keep me in the more neutral spheres. At the moment I am honing in on investigation of disease in the past, and the topic is fascinating enough to keep me interested without silly emotional implications (inherent in the project). All that stuff is peripheral and can be avoided if I am careful where I step.

A long time ago I wanted to become a musician or an artist. I was actually considering becoming a jeweller and/or a fashion designer, but as both fields involve a high degree of interpersonal competition, the presence of artistic types and lots of arty-farty bullshit (art school scared the crap out of me mainly because of the people there), I decided it wasn't for me. I just don't get that kind of mentality - or rather, I get it, I just don't want to be part of it.

Had I become a musician, I would have given in to one of my passions - which inevitably means I would have run into some profound personal conflict eventually, being immersed in something that means that much to me on an emotional level all day long, doing it for a living. I think I may have crashed and burned very quickly.

So I picked my other interest, which I have a far more detached relationship with - science. This has turned out to be a perfect path for me as I care about scientific knowledge - I just don't connect with it on a personal level like I do with music and art. So, if my projects are put on ice, or not turning out like I intended, it is still not a great personal defeat as I can take different directions and change tack because I have the foundation to do so. I am not emotionally attached to my research in terms of values I hold - I just find it rewarding, challenging and interesting in a healthier way.

Perhaps you would be better off keeping your political interests to a hobby level. In that way, you may actually enjoy it more because your life will not depend on it.

You have a talent for writing - perhaps think about using your writing skills in some way that will not involve your personal values too much.

Also - anger is often a byproduct of depression. If there is something in your surroundings that constantly trigger depression/anger, try to eliminate it, if possible. I know it is extremely difficult if you are right in the middle of it - like family issues. However, one cannot look after others if one does not look after oneself first. You are not invincible - don't waste your time and valuable emotional energy on lost causes - they will suck you dry and then you have no resources left to build a life where you can be useful to others.

 

[TBerg]

Yeah, I am emotionally retarded. But, according to the book Mastery by Robert Greene, if your work does not involve your passion, then you will become resentful of the diminishing place your passion holds in your life. I can attest to that. I have tried to bury my feelings before, and it made me prey to the most stupid and pathetic vissicitudes of life. It was embarrassing having work to which I could not relate at all. I leads to profound mistrust of my dealings with people in pursuing that work. If I don't involve passion in my work, then alienation kicks in with full force.

I really wish I could find a mentor whom I would hold in esteem, in order that a better persona might be developed, and my connection to humanity in general would improve, but that seems like looking for a One True Love or something. I need to find respect in myself if I have any chance of giving other people the respect they deserve, as my most valiant efforts at relating to anyone carry the cynicism with which I deal with myself. Everything is interconnected: lack of basic social intelligence has led to lack of marketable skill, which has led to lack of being able to fulfill any passion, which in turn feeds into cynical relations with others. Every time I try to pull on one string, the other two strings get knotted up in the process. I need to at least keep my passion going, or I will be truly lost once more.

BTW, the past few days have been better for me.

 

[TBerg]

Another thing: Davis Aurini told me that I need to be entertaining in my YouTube videos. An obstacle to being entertaining for me is lack of emotional connection to others. I am often anxious around others and am secretly embarrassed to even speak to them, given the false front I seem to need in order to do anything with them. The false front is often a false cheerfulness or a mad trickster trying to rile things up. I am often trying to hide my own desperate self, the source for my social embarrassment.

 

[Intolerable]

Your world right now has just flipped. You were comfy with it growing up because you didn't have anything else to draw on. The damnable nature of this position means that eventually you will meet other people, other ways of life, other customs and your mind will start to put two and two together.

This is why I say no matter how awful my childhood was I do not regret it. I wouldn't know the world the way I do now without it. The poverty, the fights, the being a minority in a minority ghetto was all something everyone should experience once in their lives.

Things that some people learn at 20-30 I learned at 12. Yes that means I was probably exposed on too many adult themed things as a child but even that is disputable. It did me a lot of good all considered. Probably some bad too.

Anyway this is only part two in a three part story. Boy meets world as a progressive liberal, world meets young man as a conservative, old man meets world with disinterest.

You'll bounce around from one view to another until you're an old man having figured out everything you ever wanted to know and then you'll just go through the remainder of it not caring. Therefore my advice to you is having heard the future told you should probably just ride whatever wave you are on right now. If it makes you feel good then it can't be wrong.

Oh and don't be ashamed of the past. I like to think of my past self as all I could ever be, all I could ever know at the time. Logically that person was a different person. Who you are now is something new. So dissociate the past but don't carry shame over it.

 

[Nebulous]

This is an interesting thread. I feel as if I'm seeing a potential future me.

Little note: if anxiety is holding you back from doing things, you have to realize that you can't wait until you stop feeling anxious to do something. Because most likely, that isn't going to happen. You'll continue to avoid things, and then you'll give up on them altogether. So view the anxiety as just a feeling. Don't let it determine your actions.

I know anxiety isn't your main issue but you did mention it multiple times. Also, it tends to be a bigger deal than you may think.

 

[bvanevery]

lack of basic social intelligence has led to lack of marketable skill

Does this imply that your passions don't tend towards the technical? 'Cuz plenty of us techies do just fine making tons of money without much in the way of social skills. I wouldn't say techies can be complete turnips, they do have to work with each other to some extent, but the coupling is pretty loose. Techies can definitely disappear and do mostly their own thing for awhile, as long as there's an organizational structure for cumulating everyone's work.

 

[TBerg]

On a further note, I tried science but my math skills are not up to the task of interpreting data and designing experiments.

 

[Sinny91]

(Inspirational quotes I turn to)

 

[TBerg]

And suddenly death appeared, and he promised torment. I respected him as an inevitability, and I did not shudder.

A demon came to possess me, and promised to make me quake and quiver. I let him pass through me without interrupting his journey, and he bade me godspeed.

 

[TBerg]

The problem with facing anxiety and associated mental images head-on is that everything starts to be colored by the blinding rays of my torment. I then begin to reflect that back upon other people, which is reflected back at me in due course. Fatalism breeds negativity of its own.

 

[bvanevery]

Ok, so... when crap and madness are happening all around you, do you ever just focus in on some task and keep banging away at that? Sorta like walking towards the light at the end of the tunnel. Instead of freaking out about all the bats that are swooping around in the tunnel, or getting distracted by noises and smells and water dripping and bugs and whatnot. The main job is generally to walk to the end of the tunnel and not lose track of that as a goal.

I realize it's only a metaphor, and has not often translated into actual life. But it does occasionally come up, like crossing a bridge if you're afraid of heights, or walking through the woods if you're afraid of the dark. I'm told that if your plane is dying you're supposed to look at the horizon, not straight down at the ground, because the ground will be spinning in a vortex but the horizon will be stable. In Russian fighting training we did a lot of spinning around, while still learning to walk on straight lines as we spin. It was a way of retraining the inner ear so as not to get sick, and I think ballerinas do the same thing.

I've had a really difficult time sympathizing with victims in movies like The Blair Witch Project, because the main schtick is people reveling in their psychological fear of the dark woods. If they would have just focused on a task, like sharpening up a stick so they can jab at any predators that come after them, they would have all been fine. Instead they just flail around being weird about the woods and eventually get bumped off by a serial killer. I guess the world looks different when you are trained to fight.

 

[TBerg]

Yeah, the problem with me is that I have already been made sick by a venomous creature within the enchanted forest and my sickness reminds me of all of the other venomous creatures. I have tried to leave the enchanted forest, but I am most familiar with the sources to forage here. I run out of supplies in my rucksack before I find another reliable source.

I really do try to do things while I am anxious, but it really does either cause me either to have one of those shameful aspie meltdowns or prevent me from focusing on anything. Relating to the vissicitudes of familial emotions really trips me hard. I will work on my concentration, per your advice, though.

 

[bvanevery]

When you mentioned "venomous" things, it reminded me that I really have had to focus / concentrate through the problem and away from the pain on several occasions. It just hasn't happened in awhile, thankfully, so I had forgotten. The "venomous" phenomena in question were things that made me painfully ill to my stomach. Undercooked camp food offered by some people I didn't know, in one instance. Eating way too much baking cocoa in another; I thought I was going to save all that money on buying chocolate! Might have gotten a contaminated cup of coffee once. Another time it was just a really bad case of the flu, but it was so bad I thought I had food poisoning and went to a priority care unit. Another time too much whiskey on top of strong Belgian beer.

When things are that horrible, it's best to focus on getting through it, and don't dwell or focus on the amount of pain you're actually in. If you do, you're going to amplify the pain and everything is going to get a lot worse. Having companionship helps too. In my case, several of those times I only had my dog for company, but he definitely helps. Just knowing that you're not suffering through some horrible thing totally alone is a big deal.

 

[TBerg]

In my case, the venom represents my sense of alienation and anxiety.

 

[TBerg]

I just want to thank you all for being better than most therapists. You guys are the best.

 

[bvanevery]

Heh! Well I did go to a shrink from ages 8 to 11, so they aren't valueless. I did learn something. It has helped me all my life. But I also eventually concluded, for many problems one needs to do more than think through them or ponder the source of one's attitudes. Many problems require taking actions. As a specific example, if I've got insomnia, really the only effective remedy is to work on whatever task is keeping me awake because it isn't done. When I feel like the task will actually get done and is back under my control, then I can sleep.

Extreme stomach pain will give one anxiety about what's going on. My earlier advice was about controlling anxiety and panic when faced with something horrible like that.

 

[TBerg]

Why does my mom have to start the manipulation first thing in the morning? It ruins my whole fucking day.