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The increasing decrease in creativity

Dansk

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This is something that I originally noticed while studying philosophy, but I've just made a mental connection to a much greater phenomenon encompassing a much wider scope of disciplines. I'd like feedback on this.

I'll start off with what I noticed in philosophy, since that was the genesis of the idea for me. Essentially it goes like this:

Philosophy was invented, for lack of a better word, by the ancient Greeks, and raised to an artform by Plato and Aristotle. Aristotle in particular wrote about anything and everything; by modern definitions his writings covered disciplines from nuclear physics to ethics to aesthetics to evolutionary biology. His ethical theories, in my opinion, are by far the most complete and comprehensive of anything since written; each philosopher since his time has been merely subdividing his work and occasionally hybridizing it with other academic fields. This process increased dramatically in the 20th century with the corresponding increase in the number of universities, published professors and philosophy students.

What this has resulted in is fossilization of ideas. I've encountered dozens of works by PhD holders who have elaborately crafted dense and obtuse arguments using specialized language centered around tiny, meaningless issues for the simple fact that they're the first and only ones to hold that position. It's a by-product of a system that values originality and creativity as the highest virtues. Given a limited number of options, the already existing positions will be cannibalized and spread increasingly thin among the growing number of researchers, who become ever more tenacious in their ridiculous positions with the passage of time.

Just tonight I connected that trend with popular music.

Say what you will about what's been going on in the musical world for the last 50 years, but I think you'd have to be blind not to see that bands are becoming fossilized in the exact same way. When the Beatles hit big in the early 1960s, they were working with essentially a blank slate. The invention of stereo recording and 4, 8 and 16 track tape machines revolutionized the industry and multiplied a thousandfold what it was possible to do with sound. Later, 24 track tape and eventually surround sound and digital recording with its unlimited number of tracks continued that trend.

The musical world in the 1960s and 1970s was in a state of incredible fermentation of styles and sounds, and every year that passed set the bar higher and higher, producing incredible new things that no one had heard before. The changing social norms helped this along, giving rise to genres like punk that would have been unthinkable only 20 years earlier.

And then after the 1980s, everything ground to a halt. Simply put, everything that can be done, has been done. Commercially viable conglomerations of rap and metal, punk and reggae, electronica and soul, and all of the above and more, have been created. Artists are no longer free to roam in a wide open field of possibilities. There is so little that's new and unique left to create in the sonic universe that the differences have become increasingly small. Think of bands like Led Zeppelin or Elton John, who were equally at home with blues-rock, orchestral progressive rock, reggae, punk, disco, bluegrass, country, or anything else that was going on in the 1970s, and they had hits within all of those styles. And now think of any of the famous bands of the 21st century: The Killers, The White Stripes, Arctic Monkeys, Muse, Linkin Park, Coldplay, Nickelback etc.

What do they have in common? They found a singularly identifiable style and they fossilized in it. All of their songs sound virtually identical compared to the incredible variety that was going on in the 1970s. Nickelback in particular has managed to release the exact same song a half dozen times over the last decade and fool people into thinking it's something new.

They're afraid to take chances because if they leave their niche, that little piece of the musical universe uniquely identified as theirs, they might not find another. Where the Beatles could skip all over the place from stuff like I Wanna Hold Your Hand to A Day in the Life and be reasonably sure they were going to land in uncharted territory, The Killers can't suddenly drop the synths and become a ska band for fear they won't be able to outperform the pre-existing ska bands.

I'm not saying the bands are to blame, they're victims of a general societal trend towards specialization that's been going on for centuries now. The musicians of the 60s and 70s were just lucky enough to live through an era when technology and society was changing so rapidly that a universe of possibilities were open and risk-taking was rational behaviour.

Anyways, I'm going to bed now.
 

terraxceles

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Actually, what happened during the 80's was the genesis of an underground indie scene. As mainstream music became more and more commercial thanks to MTV and other similar mediums, creative talent quietly slipped into the underground and has remained underground since then (except occasionally shining through with bands like Nirvana, Arcade Fire, et al). The famous bands you listed are only a tiny fraction of what makes up an incredible, amazing, genre-less, original world of music today, which you can find if you're willing to discover.

No, I don't believe we're creatively bankrupt quite yet. I hear new bands coming out every year sounding nothing like anything I've heard before. I call that creativity. I don't really know how it is even possible to run out of ideas actually. Sure, what we see and hear now might make it seem like every possible option has been taken, but I'm sure people in the 50's thought the same for music made back then. I guess it's only after an idea has been introduced that we realize where it could exist in the world (topic for another day: how does the human mind come up with original ideas anyway?).

Anyway, while it is an intriguing thought in the context of philosophy, I don't think the idea necessarily applies to popular music. I think the decrease in quality/originality in a lot of radio music is because of record companies wanting to minimize risk in their sales by taking the safest "hit making" route, as opposed to approaching music as art. Mind you, it has always been this way, but it's only fair that the hit-making well would run dry after 50+ years of making music the same way.

This doesn't mean popular music has become stale and unchanging as we know it, it just means most of us have gotten too used to listening to music one way and can't imagine it any other way. Which is pretty narrow minded if you ask me.

Anyway, I've forgotten what I was trying to get at so... :confused: I'll just stop typing now.
 

Anthile

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Well, it's easy to invent stuff when nothing is around. Imagine how much stuff you could 'invent' with your knowledge if you traveled back in time a thousand years.

This is something that I originally noticed while studying philosophy, but I've just made a mental connection to a much greater phenomenon encompassing a much wider scope of disciplines. I'd like feedback on this.

I'll start off with what I noticed in philosophy, since that was the genesis of the idea for me. Essentially it goes like this:

Philosophy was invented, for lack of a better word, by the ancient Greeks, and raised to an artform by Plato and Aristotle. Aristotle in particular wrote about anything and everything; by modern definitions his writings covered disciplines from nuclear physics to ethics to aesthetics to evolutionary biology. His ethical theories, in my opinion, are by far the most complete and comprehensive of anything since written; each philosopher since his time has been merely subdividing his work and occasionally hybridizing it with other academic fields. This process increased dramatically in the 20th century with the corresponding increase in the number of universities, published professors and philosophy students.

Knowledge grows exponentially. For people in Aristotle's time, it was not that hard to learn 'everything'. What the philosophers did back then was extremely basic. If you burned all of their writings, it could easily be restored by locking a bunch of Intuitives in a room for a month. Basically, you're saying that there is no creativity anymore because nobody invents stuff like addition or multiplication these days.
For quite a while now, every new year, more new books are published than any human could ever hope to read in his lifetime.


What this has resulted in is fossilization of ideas. I've encountered dozens of works by PhD holders who have elaborately crafted dense and obtuse arguments using specialized language centered around tiny, meaningless issues for the simple fact that they're the first and only ones to hold that position. It's a by-product of a system that values originality and creativity as the highest virtues. Given a limited number of options, the already existing positions will be cannibalized and spread increasingly thin among the growing number of researchers, who become ever more tenacious in their ridiculous positions with the passage of time.

I don't really disagree with that but you could say that it takes creativity and originality to come up with these stuff in the first place.


Just tonight I connected that trend with popular music.

Oh.


Say what you will about what's been going on in the musical world for the last 50 years, but I think you'd have to be blind not to see that bands are becoming fossilized in the exact same way. When the Beatles hit big in the early 1960s, they were working with essentially a blank slate. The invention of stereo recording and 4, 8 and 16 track tape machines revolutionized the industry and multiplied a thousandfold what it was possible to do with sound. Later, 24 track tape and eventually surround sound and digital recording with its unlimited number of tracks continued that trend.

I'm sorry, but that sounds just like the 'They don't make music like they used to make in my youth" that are a dime a dozen on youtube comments. Nostalgia filter to the max.


The musical world in the 1960s and 1970s was in a state of incredible fermentation of styles and sounds, and every year that passed set the bar higher and higher, producing incredible new things that no one had heard before. The changing social norms helped this along, giving rise to genres like punk that would have been unthinkable only 20 years earlier.

Sure but as I said at the top of this posting, it's really easy to create all these new stuff if nothing is around. Music is mostly evolution, not revolution. It pretty much never happens that someone comes up with something completely new. All the music of the last fifty years wouldn't have been possible without the music that came before. I don't see how the creative blending of already existing genres is not innovative. Taken to the logical extreme, every tone created after first prehistoric man made the first noise is uncreative.

And then after the 1980s, everything ground to a halt. Simply put, everything that can be done, has been done. Commercially viable conglomerations of rap and metal, punk and reggae, electronica and soul, and all of the above and more, have been created. Artists are no longer free to roam in a wide open field of possibilities. There is so little that's new and unique left to create in the sonic universe that the differences have become increasingly small. Think of bands like Led Zeppelin or Elton John, who were equally at home with blues-rock, orchestral progressive rock, reggae, punk, disco, bluegrass, country, or anything else that was going on in the 1970s, and they had hits within all of those styles. And now think of any of the famous bands of the 21st century: The Killers, The White Stripes, Arctic Monkeys, Muse, Linkin Park, Coldplay, Nickelback etc.

The notion of Led Zeppelin and Elton John as prime examples of creativity is something I find highly dubious. Artists are no longer free to roam in a wide open field of possibilities? Erm, no? There are more creative artists than ever before. Bands that play every blend of styles you can imagine and beyond. The internet and digital distribution made it possible that these bands find an audience and at least moderate commercial success.


What do they have in common? They found a singularly identifiable style and they fossilized in it. All of their songs sound virtually identical compared to the incredible variety that was going on in the 1970s. Nickelback in particular has managed to release the exact same song a half dozen times over the last decade and fool people into thinking it's something new.

These bands don't even have that much in common beyond being commercially successful. The Killers and The White Stripes play Alternative Rock, Arctic Monkeys and Muse play Alternative Rock with Britpop influence, Coldplay just Britpop and Nickelback play Post-Grunge. That you even list Linkin Park here shows that you apparently never listened to a single Linkin Park record in your life since this is a band that is famous for their innovative and g experimental sound - at least at the beginning of their career. However, all of these bands have radio-friendly singles and this was never any different in the past fifty years. People always wanted short and catchy songs on the radio.


They're afraid to take chances because if they leave their niche, that little piece of the musical universe uniquely identified as theirs, they might not find another. Where the Beatles could skip all over the place from stuff like I Wanna Hold Your Hand to A Day in the Life and be reasonably sure they were going to land in uncharted territory, The Killers can't suddenly drop the synths and become a ska band for fear they won't be able to outperform the pre-existing ska bands.

I could sit here all day and cite bands that drastically changed their style drastically. From Bad Religion who went from Progressive Rock to Punk, Talk Talk who at one day decided that cheesy Synth Pop wasn't enough and created the masterpiece called Spirit Of Eden, creating single-handedly the genre of Post-Rock in the process. What about Anathema who went from Doom Metal to the melancholic Alternative Rock we all know and love them for. What about the perhaps most famous example of this trope, Radiohead? Never happened I guess.


I'm not saying the bands are to blame, they're victims of a general societal trend towards specialization that's been going on for centuries now. The musicians of the 60s and 70s were just lucky enough to live through an era when technology and society was changing so rapidly that a universe of possibilities were open and risk-taking was rational behaviour.

No.


Anyways, I'm going to bed now.

Good night.
 

EyeSeeCold

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Philosophy was invented, for lack of a better word, by the ancient Greeks, and raised to an artform by Plato and Aristotle. Aristotle in particular wrote about anything and everything; by modern definitions his writings covered disciplines from nuclear physics to ethics to aesthetics to evolutionary biology. His ethical theories, in my opinion, are by far the most complete and comprehensive of anything since written; each philosopher since his time has been merely subdividing his work and occasionally hybridizing it with other academic fields. This process increased dramatically in the 20th century with the corresponding increase in the number of universities, published professors and philosophy students.

Says who? You do know that history is written by the conquerors? For all we know the ancient Mayan and Egyptian civilizations could have made the biggest leaps in philosophy. Though I do agree that modern philosophers are basically going deeper into more restrictive philosophical doctrines and the same for musicians and everyone who else who tries to achieve acclaim. This is just a result of having a pyramid of competence. Every time progress is made, it is adopted by the whole of society. The only way for a new philosopher, artist, etc to reach acclaim is to climb higher towards that narrow space which is still fundamentally composed of earlier groundbreaking achievements. Artists have this problem all the time. Garage bands ignore what's been done and try to create something unique, but later find out that somebody has already done it. You could say the decreasing possibility of being unique is a negative consequence of recording history.
 

Agent Intellect

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If you can't find new and innovative music, you're looking in the wrong places.

Mainstream music (like some of the bands you listed) is a business with the goal of making money. They're going to make music that helps their record companies meet their bottom line, and they're going to keep pumping that music out as long as it makes money. Once it stops making money, they'll either drop into obscurity (example: Limp Bizkit) or change to something that will continue making money (example: Justin Timberlake).

Indie, underground music is where you have to look. For myself, I'm a hip-hop fan and have found innovative music from non-mainstream labels like Def Jux, Rhymesayers, Doomtree, and Enemy Soil.

It might just be my own ignorance, but we've had several threads that contained all kinds of music I'd never heard before.

As for philosophy, that - like music - has always been evolving. There would be no Aristotle without Plato, no Plato without Socrates, no Socrates without the Sophists, no Sophists without the pre-Socratics. Just like with biological evolution, it's easy to look at a certain time period and see all the strange, novel traits and think 'nowadays everything is just built on these ideas'; creativity is spawned from the creations of others. Einstein built his relativity theories on the work of Ernst Mach, Michelson and Morley, David Hilbert, Isaac Newton etc.

Most creativity seems to stem from being able to develop familiar things in different ways. Then the next person can take your insight and develop it in some other novel way. A lot of creativity comes from thousands of failed attempts just to get that single success that incites change. Almost all of histories biggest insights either borrowed from previous insights, or were created in opposition to previous insights. Other creations are born from necessity - and these necessities arise because of other innovations. The seat belt is a brilliant invention (which is often overshadowed by it's simplicity, ubiquity, and what has become necessity), but it never would have come about if someone hadn't invented the automobile.

That all being said, I do think that, at least in America, the education system is not conducive to cultivating creativity. Standardized tests; taking the arts/humanities classes out of the curriculum; the selectivity and political correctness of our curriculum (American pre-college history and science classes are atrocious); curricula focused on rote memorization, getting kids into college so they can get into a career; the way things are taught in general - all lead to "inside the box" thinking.
 

SpaceYeti

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I'm of the mind that the universe is finite. Once an idea is done, good or bad, and more ideas come about, and soon many, many ideas come about, there are only so many ideas left that could be considered unique. Even if you come up with something you made up, which is as far as you know unique, there's probably a story that's at least vaguely similar, no matter how original your piece is. There are character archetypes for a reason. There are only so many ways a story can be told and enjoyed by people. People are highly varied, but they're still pretty similar as a group, and only a certain number of things will move them or entertain them as a whole. Even if you do find a truly unique idea, there's a damned good chance it's not actually enjoyable, since it differs so much from what has been tested and shown to entertain.

Similarly, many people seem to think technology will increase infinitely. However, the universe has rules that it follows. Engines can only be made so efficient before they cannot be improved upon any more, simply because you cannot improve reality, only how you manipulate things within it. There will be a point where technology peeks, and it will reach a plateau or stagnate or worse. Unless we never "figure it all out", in which case technology will not reach a peek, perhaps, but advancements will surely slow down significantly.
 

Dansk

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Apparently I've been misunderstood, and that's partly the fault of the title I chose for this.

I'm not saying that philosophy and music is less creative today. In fact, it may be MORE creative as it tries to find tinier and tinier pieces of new ground that haven't yet been explored.

What I'm saying is that there's far less willingness to move outside of that ground once they've found it. It has nothing to do with the commercial schlock that gets played on the radio, or the Great Wonderment of Artistic Merit that is indie and alternative music. Both suffer from the same thing. The Arcade Fire, the one band I see mentioned more than any other as something it's okay to like and still be a music snob, has a sound and a style that has remained virtually identical from album to album. They may create a huge variety of songs within that style, but they NEVER leave it.

That's what I'm talking about.

This isn't a "boy I sure miss the music of my youth" post, because I'm only 25. I'm not getting nostalgic, I'm just noticing a difference between my bands and my parents' bands. I'm not even making a value judgement about that music--with the exception of Nickelback--because I think there are just as many exceptionally creative artists now as there were 40 years ago. They're just being creative inside their own houses now, instead of parading around the block.
 

DesertSmeagle

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I think that even artists 40 years ago stayed in their own safety zone. You can tell right a way when certain artists songs come on the radio before even hearing the vocals. Fukin zz top sucks dick, and you cant tell their songs apart from eachother becasue they all sound the same.
 

Dansk

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I think that even artists 40 years ago stayed in their own safety zone. You can tell right a way when certain artists songs come on the radio before even hearing the vocals. Fukin zz top sucks dick, and you cant tell their songs apart from eachother becasue they all sound the same.

A useful definition I came across back in a university course on popular music was the difference between a 'journeyman' band and an 'artiste' band. (Not sure if the second term is the actual one used in the course, but you get the idea.) ZZ Top is a prime example of a journeyman band: they didn't set out to do anything new and had no artistic pretensions, they just wanted to make blooz-rawk with big beards. There are plenty of artists then and now who fall into that category.

I'm not a Beatles fan by any means, but at the very least I have to respect them for the insane amount of experimentation they did on their later albums. Show me a modern band that's willing to write something as radio-friendly as Back in the USSR and on the same album release something as bizarre and unorthodox as Revolution 9.
 

DesertSmeagle

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Ya then I hate every. Journeyman band . I can't stand zz top I can't even think of the stupid sharp dressed man bullshit without vomiting.

And ya, the beatles were waay ahead. Of their time.
 

Vegard Pompey

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What I'm saying is that there's far less willingness to move outside of that ground once they've found it. It has nothing to do with the commercial schlock that gets played on the radio, or the Great Wonderment of Artistic Merit that is indie and alternative music. Both suffer from the same thing. The Arcade Fire, the one band I see mentioned more than any other as something it's okay to like and still be a music snob, has a sound and a style that has remained virtually identical from album to album. They may create a huge variety of songs within that style, but they NEVER leave it.

That's what I'm talking about.

This isn't a "boy I sure miss the music of my youth" post, because I'm only 25. I'm not getting nostalgic, I'm just noticing a difference between my bands and my parents' bands. I'm not even making a value judgement about that music--with the exception of Nickelback--because I think there are just as many exceptionally creative artists now as there were 40 years ago. They're just being creative inside their own houses now, instead of parading around the block.

I have absolutely no idea why you would make this generalization. Just because Arcade Fire (there's no 'the', by the way) haven't made any drastic changes to their sound, that doesn't mean there aren't tons of bands that have evolved, for an example, from black metal to electronica via folk music. It's hard for me to even explain how you're wrong since your only argument seems to be a ridiculous generalization and the experiences of me and those of many other alternative/indie/underground/whatever music fans contradict what you're saying.

For the heck of it, a few examples:

Radiohead: Fairly standard alternative rock -> kinda unusual alternative rock -> electronic jazz-, ambient- and modern classical-influenced wtf music -> alternative rock that retains elements of the preceding wtf music
Kent: Alternative rock -> synth pop
Anathema: Death doom metal -> Alternative/progressive rock (Anthile could probably explain this one in greater detail)
Devin Townsend: Evolution too complex to summarize, clusterfuck of progressive metal, death metal, pop, ambient, electronic, industrial, noise and eurodance.

And that's not even getting into all the really experimental-for-the-sake-of-being experimental artists (much like the Beatles were) like Sigh, John Zorn, Mike Patton, etc.

I'm not a Beatles fan by any means, but at the very least I have to respect them for the insane amount of experimentation they did on their later albums. Show me a modern band that's willing to write something as radio-friendly as Back in the USSR and on the same album release something as bizarre and unorthodox as Revolution 9.

I tried to think of an example, but I realized that fortunately all my favourite albums are too coherent for such a jarring and unpleasant contrast. But if I were to look at entire discographies, the examples would be plentiful.

Yes, the Beatles were extremely innovative and there probably will never be another band to measure up in this regard, but this is simply because they had, as you said, a blank slate to work with. As for their actual creativity, it is far from unparalleled by modern bands.
 

Dansk

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Yes, the Beatles were extremely innovative and there probably will never be another band to measure up in this regard, but this is simply because they had, as you said, a blank slate to work with. As for their actual creativity, it is far from unparalleled by modern bands.

My point exactly.
 

wdavis36

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I enjoyed that theory and believe in it somewhat. I thought it was insightful and thought provoking but here is my problem with it. The net-geners are certainly raised in an environment of information overload. Information is shot at us relentlessly and mercilessly. It is up to us to sift through the junk and find out whats important to us. I feel that music is the same way. All these record labels and mainstream marketing techniques just push and push all this crap music on us so they can sell as many albums as possible. This practice literally kills creativity. Creativity, to me, is the essence of music(of course along with complex musical structures) and creativity from within an individual, I believe, stems from what motivates them to be creative. If it is about money then the creativity will all sound the same and we get bands like nickelback and so on. However, if we learn to sift through all this musical crap, and look real hard there are still good musicians out there, doing their thing not because it brings them money or fame but because they love music.
 

Jesse

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I will agree with your point and apply it to other things. I was actually thinking on this in bed last night so it's kinda weird you brought it up.

The art form of theater was created out of a religious ceremony. The oldest plays we have are just spoken retelling of stories with music intervals. 50 years after that we have The Clouds which when performed now is almost inseparable from modern plays. Does that mean there have been no creativity in 2 and half thousand years? Just because there is no innovation in the technique doesn't mean there is no creativity.
 
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