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The Function of Si

Duxwing

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Dear Forum,

For a type that prides itself on logic and analysis, the emphasis on detail-orientation and tradition presented by Si certainly makes this function an oddball in the INTP's functional stack. Could someone more knowledgeable about typology explain what role Si plays in the psyche of the INTP?

-Duxwing
 
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I'm not a typology expert, but it's my experience that varying degrees of Si traits are expressed depending on where it is in the functional stack (based on your description).

While Si-doms tend to be detail-oriented, traditional, moralistic, and attracted to archetypal ideals, fewer of these are expressed the lower in the stack Si lies. This eventually leads to someone like me, who can't even remember what day of the week it is or shower on a regular basis (<-although that might just be a wildlife biologist thing. Hello ladies).

*I believe Si in an INTP is frequently manifested as adherence to logic and analysis.

*Edit: Case in point: Cheese in post 3 :p

**Edit: Actually @cheese, that helped me out quite a bit as well, now that I re-read it... Thanks for that.
 

cheese

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I believe it's an anchoring function, like Ni. Ni anchors to a symbolic vision rooted in the future, as a talisman for transformation (of themselves or the world or whatever). Si anchors to specific, sense-oriented memories rooted in the past, as something concrete to hold onto/memory, to preserve, or to bring the what is treasured in the past into the present. Ni transforms and pushes into the future (because its anchor is in the future), Si preserves and stays rooted while circumstances fluctuate; they both seem to be used to anchor people, just with different goals and reference points.

This is what you 'use' them for, I think. I think passively they act as storehouses too, 'worldviews' (from podlair). Ni stores information about the world in patterns, shifting patterns underneath the surface grid of sensory reality, so that each event can be seen as simply a variant of a timeless pattern (and therefore outcomes can be predicted). So there's Se on the surface, and Ni underlying it (bad way to put it, but roughly what I mean). With Ne-Si types, our worldview is concrete, not pattern-based. Thousands of little data points that we connect bit by bit. Our 'underlying reality' is a bunch of discrete events, and we connect them on the surface as they occur with Ne. Architect linked to an article about our learning (about the world - broadening and deepening/stabilising understanding) being maze-like/trial-and-error. Going down multiple little offshoot paths to check if they're the right ones. (Can't remember if the article was about Ne, but it applies.) Ne can accelerate the process, maybe, but can also stall it when it casts its net too wide.

So in navigating the world, both Ni and Si tell us what's going on and what's likely to happen, based on different storage systems; they also tell us what *should* happen.

This is what I think so far, anyway. There's more but it's even less clear than this. I hope some of it made sense at least.

I find it a pity that Si is dismissed as simply a love of details, or a good fact-oriented memory. I think the latter trait especially has nothing to do with type. I don't think it makes sense for types with a naturally weak grasp of a function to dismiss it based on their own limited understanding and control, though it *is* typical of humanity. We should be getting our understanding of functions we don't understand or use well from people who live and breathe it naturally. Fe is quite fascinating too, I think. We demonise it because we suck at it and because the levels we use these tools at are way beneath their potential, so whether we're dealing with our output or others' input, we interpret the process and data transfer at a very low level. I think at the top, each function is amazing.


I think types with lower Si often express it as a glum adherence and acceptance of reality, but with a stiff upper lip. Sort of british in nature. They also tend to be skeptical - when you talk to them there tends to be a movement down 'back to earth' in their thinking style. Common-sense. And I *think* as they grow older they seem to produce anecdotal evidence more to support their views. I see this with INTPs. Si-Fe, as it develops through life, starts to connect and solidify its little underlying data points on people and relationships with less of the younger INTP's focus on exploration and withholding certainty till enough data has been amassed (Ti-Ne fear of incomplete ie inaccurate models). Their data congeals into understanding that comes from mental exploration and solid experience. Their minds stabilise a little and became weighter, more grounded.

Types with high Si like to use Ne to play, I think. Ne seems to be naturally playful, but high Ne is used for change and growth as well. Low Ne seems to be used for fun, just surfing off little patterns in the present that they see, for banter, occasional spontaneity etc. Might have more to say on this later.

High functions in general seem to be used to output something transformational. Active use, rather than passive use.
 

Words

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You seriously cant link Si and Logic? Strict logic is about axioms. Axioms is Si. No Si, No Axioms, No Logic. Adherence, by doc, is a yes. Si builds logic.
 
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You seriously cant link Si and Logic? Strict logic is about axioms. Axioms is Si. No Si, No Axioms, No Logic. Adherence, by doc, is a yes. Si builds logic.

Would you consider an ISTJ to be equally as logical as an INTP?
 

PhoenixRising

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Would you consider an ISTJ to be equally as logical as an INTP?
I know your question wasn't directed at me.. but I have a coworker/friend who is an ISTJ that frequently has intellectual conversations with me. This is only one case, but I've noticed that he tends to base his ideas much less on logic than I do. For instance, he believes that aliens helped the Egyptians build the pyramids because he doesn't have a more suitable answer for the evidence provided. I accept that I really don't know if aliens helped the Egyptians build the pyramids, but I also do not think that it is probable that they did. I base this on the idea that lack of knowledge should not warrant the usage of a random axiom to support a theory. That is faulty logic.
 

Words

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Would you consider an ISTJ to be equally as logical as an INTP?

No. No way. Empirically and Theoretically, no way. Si merely stores the axioms generated and regulated by Ti. Si alone means storing without thinking, conclusion without rationalization. Ti without Si on the other hand, is thinking without storing, rationalization without conclusion. Course you can conclude with Ni but you can't create a true logic system. A systematical precise network of truths is what logic is, and is what TiSi is.


Are SiTi's more logical? Well that's like asking whether its better to conclude then rationalize or rationalize then conclude. Of course, the network of truths is more important than a single unverified conclusion.
 

redbaron

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Would you consider an ISTJ to be equally as logical as an INTP?

I would consider them both capable. They both have pitfalls to avoid, and I've seen plenty of instances of INTP's being rigid and illogical.

I think almost any T has the capability, but not necessarily the same drive as an INTP to always be logical. In that, the INTP's main drive gives them an (big) advantage in that their overall goal is to unify and create logical systems.

To dismiss someone who is ISTJ as being less logical than yourself for being an INTP wouldn't be a logical course of action.
 

Architect

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S is an information function just like N. I or E is the direction of the energy or information gathering, so Si is a function that looks for information internally, i.e. past experience. It is a function that in an INTP guides Ti & Ne by pointing out past experiences to guide future directions. By its nature it is a brooding function, Si people tend to have a melancholic streak. Si dominants (poor dears) are often really messed up, they can't get beyond their past experience and spend their days brooding over past mistakes.

To see Si in action observe and ISFJ. I know a few, they're broody types and I do know one who can't seem to make future progress in his life, all he does is nurture his past wounds and transgressions. Somebody here related a story of an ISFJ grandfather who spent all his time regaling everybody about this days in the military. I know another ISFJ who got kicked out of the military (Annapolis) and now spends his time regretting it. Speaking of which young ISFJs should be encouraged to go into the military and stick with it.

Anyhow back to the INTP, since it is on 'the other side' of the functional stack Si doesn't get a lot of conscious thought or time, but it does play a useful role. It definitely shouldn't get a lot of conscious time either, or we see the poor INTP who is just stuck in a loop of their own making, due to some past mistake or failure. Such an INTP needs a good kick of Ne.
 

Fghw

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Si sees the past
Se sees the present
Ni sees the future
Ne has no perception of time
 

Eclectic_K

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In my limited experience (and with the help of an INTJ) I have come to see the INTPs Si function as our memory function. Think about it for a minute, visualize how you remember things and you may or may not realize what I'm talking about. It might also help to ask other personality types to describe their memories. After speaking with an ISFJ and INFJ (who have Ti as a memory function) I have marveled by the logical accuracy they tend to remember things. One of my close friends, an ENFP, tends to have a similar memory system (Te) but she almost always has to walk through the events out-loud as they come to her. Another friend, an ISTP with an Ni memory function, describes reaching for his memories much more like reaching into a black box and hoping to find what he needs. I could give a few more examples.
Personally, even though I respect the Ti as a memory function I would never want to trade it from my Dominant Primary. Currently I am working at ways to synchronize my Ne, Ti and Si into as system that allows me to take in massive amounts of information with me Ne, categorize them and condense the information with me Ti while simultaneously corralling it with my Si.
 

Eclectic_K

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Sorry for posting twice but It just occurred to me that you might be referring to the general functions of Si not just the way the effect INTPs.

In that case I say it all depends on how dominant the Si is and how well developed it is in the person. Dominate S personalities tend to be the 'realists' of society with (in my opinion) a despairing lack for creativity.

A wonderful example of Si can be found in the movie Inception. Consider the striking realism of the dreams. Dreams based off of creations in the real world following the laws of physics, dreams that actually make some sort of sense. If you were ever even the slightest bit bothered by that you may understand what I'm talking about.

Inception is a wonderful movie by the way! I enjoy it very much.
 

Urraco

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Waaah, I'm in a new town and don't know ANYBODY. I will be miserable forever.

Nothing will ever match how wonderful things were before.

He used to be so cool, but he's just not the same person anymore.

Oh my god, remember when we got in the hot tub and I still had the pack of cigarettes in my shorts pocket, so I took $6 from mom's purse and blamed my brother?! Good times.

I can't take this shit anymore. If you need me I'll be in my usual corner barricaded by my lovely notebooks I've been working on forever.

What would teenage me have to say about this?

Welllll...I don't know. I've never done this before so...let me just think about it, okay?

I believe that's a vampire squid. (A what?) Technically an octopus (data chunk) that lives in the depths (data chunk) and folds its webbed tentacles over itself (data chunk) displaying spike-like protrusions. That's what I read, anyway.

^Si, give or take some cross-contamination with other functions.
 

Calmstrider

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Si is characterized by strong moral codes, concrete facts, memories, and a clear definition of how one "should" be acting. In addition to a means of storing and recalling information to support Ti reasoning, Si may also act to stabilize and validate identity.

I propose that Si validates the processes that are constantly running on Ti's behalf and provides a springboard for Ne shenanigans- its conclusions give present activities meaning by juxtaposing them with past experiences. The wild ideas and mental nitpicking that characterize XNTPs are given some substance by backing the two up with cold hard facts. INTP profiles suggest that we live primarily inside of our own heads. Since TiNe is an ongoing process of introducing ideas and evaluating them, there is no inherent means of actually deciding what are the intrinsic qualities of the functional pair, much as one can't see the back of one's one head. Together, the two would get caught in a loop of reinterpretations and guesswork. With Si, the INTP can build a static foundation for further conclusions, and know the self before drawing conclusions about other items, that is, deciding when a Truth has been found. In this way, Si does not simply serve as a library to back up TiNe claims, but as a testament to the previous work completed by the top two functions. TiNe is dynamic, always moving forward. Si establishes which way that actually is.

Something that I have observed in the interactions between INTP and others is that we do not merely rationalize and continually reexamine our world views, but we also adhere very closely to logical thought as a principle, often as much as we exercise its use as a process. For example, illogical arguments and fallacious reasoning used to manipulate others irritates me to no end. They demonstrate a use of Fe that is almost directly opposite to the truth seeking of Ti. If I were only to use Ti in this situation, I would simply attempt to rectify the mistakes. Instead, Si has presented me with anecdotal data that suggests that Ti based logic is useful and positive. My memories also present a sense that Fe expressions and manipulations of emotion are useless and draining. These beliefs have crystallized these experiences into a principle. Ti is no longer just what I tend to do, but what believe I and others should be doing, and that may be why the emotional reaction is so potent.

Ti variegates elements within a system, while Si creates conclusions, and from those conclusions, establishes "rules" for future action. It is the constant reexamination of these internal algorithms that makes us INTPs, and allows us to articulate our findings.

Please let me know if I've got this all right, the hypothesis needs some work. I may just be reiterating common knowledge, but hopefully this conveys an interpretation that has not been expressed as of yet.
 
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