• OK, it's on.
  • Please note that many, many Email Addresses used for spam, are not accepted at registration. Select a respectable Free email.
  • Done now. Domine miserere nobis.

The Fine Tuning Argument - What Am I Missing?

Thurlor

Nutter
Local time
Tomorrow 9:25 AM
Joined
Jul 8, 2012
Messages
643
---
Location
Victoria, Australia
I just don't get it. Why is it considered such a compelling argument/question? Am I missing some profound insight into reality that philosophers are privy to? As it stands it seems like such a shallow issue.

The Weak Anthropic Principle would seem to make any inquiry into the issue absolutely pointless.

Maybe I am too literal and a-spiritual. What am I missing?
 

dr froyd

__________________________________________________
Local time
Today 10:25 PM
Joined
Jan 26, 2015
Messages
1,485
---
i've also found it weird, including the anthropic principle being some principle deserving its own name - it all seems like basic application of conditional probability? I.e. if you exist, then what you observe clearly must be conditioned on your existence.
 

Cognisant

cackling in the trenches
Local time
Today 11:25 AM
Joined
Dec 12, 2009
Messages
11,155
---
Consider someone who you regard as being of average intelligence, now consider that half the world is dumber than that, many of them considerably so.

Dumb people latch on to simple ideas, like space elevators, even if we had some magical material with infinite tensile strength and UV resistance, a space elevator would still be the least feasible (yet technically possible) way to get stuff into space.

But people are still talking about space elevators and trying to get projects funded because it's a really simple idea and easy to get excited about.
 

birdsnestfern

Earthling
Local time
Today 5:25 PM
Joined
Oct 7, 2021
Messages
1,897
---
I had not heard of it before, but I think it just means that without gravity, space, time and the three dimensions, we couldn't exist, as the slight change to anything on the atomic level would result in different atoms, different everything.

https://phys.org/news/2021-11-universe-fine-tuned-life.html

Much the same is true of the dimensionality of spacetime, where three dimensions of space (as postulated by Newton) are needed for stable atoms and stable planetary orbits.

A universe with three spatial dimensions and one dimension of time (as described by general relativity) is also essential. Any more, says Barnes, and atomic systems could not remain stable. In other words, while the CC (Cosmological Constant) may raise theoretical problems, the Standard Model and the dimensionality of space-time are consistent with the fine-tuned model. As Barnes put it:

The cosmological constant is unexplained in our equations and is consistent with a life-permitting universe only in a very small range. Its value is an unmotivated and precise assumption, in the constant of the standard models of particle physics and cosmology. Many of the other constants of the standard model are the same."
 

The Grey Man

το φως εν τη σκοτια φαινει
Local time
Today 5:25 PM
Joined
Oct 6, 2014
Messages
931
---
Location
Canada
Imo you're not missing something that is there, but seeing something that is not there, namely the cogency of the reply to the Fine-tuning Argument which appeals to the Weak Anthropic Principle. The argument starts from the observation that the universe supports the existence of intelligent life; the reply is that the universe necessarily supports the existence of intelligent life, else we wouldn't be here to articulate arguments based on observations, and that this observation is sufficient to explain the fact that the universe supports the existence of intelligent life. Those who use this reply against Aquinas's Fifth Way (the Argument from Final Causality) are thus essentially saying that the universe supports intelligent life because the universe supports intelligent life, which is nonsense; nor can this circularity be avoided by claiming that ours is perhaps just one of many 'universes,' so that to observe that ours just 'happens' to support intelligent life is an example of survivor's bias; for there is no reason to assume a priori, absent any theological data, that any actually existing universe should play host to intelligent life, and, besides, the very concept of a plurality of universes, of 'many everythings,' is incoherent. (The talk of 'many infinities' or 'many kinds of infinity' in modern mathematics is due to the indifference of mathematicians to the traditional meanings of words—ultimately, to the unfortunate lack of culture among modern scientists generally, which proceeds from hyper-specialization necessitated by information accumulation—and not to any factor intrinsic to the content of the theories themselves.)

These objectors, like those who, in reply to the Second Way (Argument from Efficient Causality), say that there is no reason why we cannot regress from effects to their causes forever, never arriving at an absolutely first Cause, confuse the 'order of being' (ordo essendi) with the 'order of knowing' (ordo cognoscendi).' The objectors to the Second Way forget that, though, due to our reliance on our bodies and their passive sense-organs for perception, we often know effects before we can conjecture their efficient causes, yet the existence of an efficient cause necessarily precedes the existence of its effects, since an efficient cause is precisely the cause of its effects insofar as they exist, and that, therefore, this regress from effects to their causes is merely a reversal in thought of the progress from causes (indeed, a single first Cause) to their effects which takes place in reality. The objectors to the Fifth Way, similarly, forget that, though we know ourselves as intelligent beings long before we arrive at the concept of intelligent life in general, yet our existence does not explain how the existence of intelligent life in general is possible—it simply proves that it is possible and moreover actual.

This scholastic distinction between the order of knowing and the order of being may seem pedantic, but it is really just an explicit expression of a tacit commonsense principle: smoke tells us that the fire is there, but it doesn't tell us how it got there, why the fire. Of course, we might not care how the fire got there, but we cannot be indifferent as to the source of our own being without denying our very nature as rational beings, to whom it is proper to look for reasons, for science (i.e. demonstrative knowledge of things, knowledge of things through their causes), and especially for the meaning of our own lives. The first Cause, which we call God, is thus the object of the deepest yearning of human nature. Who will be so perverse as to say that he doesn't believe in Him?
 

fluffy

Pony Influencer
Local time
Today 3:25 PM
Joined
Sep 21, 2024
Messages
531
---
The question of why there would be a fine tuning is like asking why five platonic solids exist. Can we make 6 or 7 solids in 3D worlds, the answer in no. Just like there is no simpler shape than a triangle with straight lines, scientists have made mathematical models explaining physics like gravity in the simplest terms possible. The hologram of yang mills.

From what I know of quantum mechanics. What confused people was the measurement problem created many possibilities for where things could be but this doesn't mean many worlds exist like in Rick and Morty. The math simply states that if you measure a system then if you are looking for some parts that you should look in these specific areas rather than the others over a period of multiple measurements and you will get a number of instances that you find them in different spots.

It is like asking what level of intelligence a person has before you give them an IQ test. You don't know and you need to test multiple people to find out not just one person and this all adds up based on the samples and the instruments of measurement.

Quantum Mechanics is asking where things are but that's a different question from the geometry of the rules they follow and why it's hard to combine them.
 

dr froyd

__________________________________________________
Local time
Today 10:25 PM
Joined
Jan 26, 2015
Messages
1,485
---
Those who use this reply against Aquinas's Fifth Way (the Argument from Final Causality) are thus essentially saying that the universe supports intelligent life because the universe supports intelligent life, which is nonsense; nor can this circularity be avoided by claiming that ours is perhaps just one of many 'universes,' so that to observe that ours just 'happens' to support intelligent life is an example of survivor's bias; for there is no reason to assume a priori, absent any theological data, that any actually existing universe should play host to intelligent life, and, besides, the very concept of a plurality of universes, of 'many everythings,' is incoherent.
i'm not sure you're catching the essence of the argument. The point is that it is flawed reasoning to argue for creationism on the basis of the improbability of the configuration of the universe.

i.e. it is no more valid to argue for creationism on the basis of an observed "fine-tuned" universe than a completely chaotic and messed-up one that doesn't contain life. Because if the process that somehow generated our universe could create both good and bad universes (without any quality control by a sentient being), then us observing one of the good ones doesn't change anything - because we simply could not have had a different vantage point.

if we could have somehow observed an external universe that is totally chaotic and unfit for life, the fine-tuned-argument we be to say: wow look at that configuration, it was so improbable that it would turn out exactly like that! That would be silly, yet it's the equivalent.

and as a side note, a probabilistic argument doesn't require the actual existence of alternative universes, just like you don't need to make a million copies of yourself in order to win the lottery.
 

fluffy

Pony Influencer
Local time
Today 3:25 PM
Joined
Sep 21, 2024
Messages
531
---
Creationism comes in many forms.

We can say the earth is not less than a billion years old (some Bible interpretations say 6 thousand)

We can say life evolved.

We can say the mathematics or rules must be a certain way without default to a multiverse.

But in the case of God,

We don't know if something out side the universe can interact with us that would be sentient (a being aware of itself and intelligent)

So God could be the reason things exist but all else has a good explanation.

Existence like the experience of colors is a super duper hard problem yet to be solved.
 

dr froyd

__________________________________________________
Local time
Today 10:25 PM
Joined
Jan 26, 2015
Messages
1,485
---
We don't know if something out side the universe can interact with us that would be sentient (a being aware of itself and intelligent)

So God could be the reason things exist but all else has a good explanation.
absolutely, no matter what exists you'll be left with a question of how it came into existence - but that's regardless of whether it's fine-tuned or a compete mess
 

The Grey Man

το φως εν τη σκοτια φαινει
Local time
Today 5:25 PM
Joined
Oct 6, 2014
Messages
931
---
Location
Canada
i'm not sure you're catching the essence of the argument. The point is that it is flawed reasoning to argue for creationism on the basis of the improbability of the configuration of the universe.

i.e. it is no more valid to argue for creationism on the basis of an observed "fine-tuned" universe than a completely chaotic and messed-up one that doesn't contain life. Because if the process that somehow generated our universe could create both good and bad universes (without any quality control by a sentient being), then us observing one of the good ones doesn't change anything - because we simply could not have had a different vantage point.
If the universe could have been either good or bad, then the observation that it is good should prompt us to ask why, unless we gratuitously suppose, in a gross violation of Ockham's razor, that there exist multiple universes, some good and some bad, of which ours is just one of the 'winning lottery tickets' (according to your analogy), but the very concept of a plurality of universes is, as I have said, incoherent. Given that there is a winning ticket, it is not surprising that someone should get it; but "there is no reason to assume a priori," i.e. without any reference to the facts of experience, that there should be any winning ticket, that any actually existing universe should support intelligent life. This should make us wonder, especially since the very thing to be explained, cosmic intelligence, is analogous to what appears necessary to explain it, divine Intelligence. Unsurprisingly, even Catholic natural theology (i.e. theology which considers God purely inasmuch as He can be known by reason, without reference to any special supernatural revelation) concludes that God created the universe for the sake of a covenental relationship with intelligent creatures.
 

ZenRaiden

One atom of me
Local time
Today 10:25 PM
Joined
Jul 27, 2013
Messages
5,262
---
Location
Between concrete walls
Simple things cannot be complex = it must be made by intelligence.

However in computing we have what is called emergent properties.

That is with enough simple elements that keep repeating complexity starts evolving.

You could almost argue that universe is made such that complexity is principal law in universe.

 

Thurlor

Nutter
Local time
Tomorrow 9:25 AM
Joined
Jul 8, 2012
Messages
643
---
Location
Victoria, Australia
@The Grey Man
I don't think you get the point that myself and dr froyd are making. Can there exist consciousness in a universe that doesn't allow for consciousness to exist? Obviously not. Therefore we (a conscious entity) must by definition be in a universe that DOES allow for consciousness to exist. This is true no matter how many universes there are.

If you want to discuss how these constants came to be that is a different question. But there is no why question to answer.
 

Thurlor

Nutter
Local time
Tomorrow 9:25 AM
Joined
Jul 8, 2012
Messages
643
---
Location
Victoria, Australia
@Cognisant
This isn't some beleif of the masses only. It is a respected philosophical question that many atheists claim is one of the hardest issues to contend with.
 

dr froyd

__________________________________________________
Local time
Today 10:25 PM
Joined
Jan 26, 2015
Messages
1,485
---
gross violation of Ockham's razor
i would say it's the ultimate application on occam's razor.

because literally all it says is that we have no clue how things came into existence - all we know is that we exist, so we must condition all observation on the fact that we exist.

so then if one asks: what's the probability that we observe a world suitable for life, conditioned on us living in one - well that probability is pretty damn high. If you express that probability as P(A | B) then we are analyzing everything strictly in terms of A | B whereas a creationism-from-fine-tuned argument talks in terms of P(A) - which we know absolutely nothing about. To start making assumptions about it - that would be an actual violation of occam's razor.

the multiverse stuff i don't even consider a part of the actual argument, to me it seems like an adhoc invention to make it more intuitive and suitable for mainstream consumption. It's frequentist probability translated into a picture of realized outcomes.
 

Thurlor

Nutter
Local time
Tomorrow 9:25 AM
Joined
Jul 8, 2012
Messages
643
---
Location
Victoria, Australia
Occam's Razor is about axioms/concepts, not things/objects.
A simple theory that results in multiple universes is more parsimonious than a complex theory that results in one universe.
Just thought I would throw that out there as many seem to mistake the point of Occam's Razor.
 

Old Things

I am unworthy of His grace
Local time
Today 4:25 PM
Joined
Feb 24, 2021
Messages
2,936
---
It's the same sort of argument that posits that life did not arise out of inorganic material because it's basically impossible for that to happen.
 

Cognisant

cackling in the trenches
Local time
Today 11:25 AM
Joined
Dec 12, 2009
Messages
11,155
---
This isn't some beleif of the masses only. It is a respected philosophical question that many atheists claim is one of the hardest issues to contend with.
There are many stupid atheists.

It's the same sort of argument that posits that life did not arise out of inorganic material because it's basically impossible for that to happen.
I don't consider emergence incompatible with creationism, indeed I think it makes God more majestic. God didn't appear on Earth as a person to literally sculpt Adam out of clay then animate that clay golem like some mere magician. This is capital 'G' God we're talking about, he created man in the moment he created everything for he forsaw creating the universe in just the right way would result in the emergence of man.

It's a flex on anyone who would "play god" , like sure you might be able to 3D print custom DNA and grow a new kind of person in a vat, but nobody's doing it the way God did it.
 

fluffy

Pony Influencer
Local time
Today 3:25 PM
Joined
Sep 21, 2024
Messages
531
---
Cog seems to refer to deism.

I am not completely a deist.

I think there is a way life came to be chemically by the setup but also that God can intervene.

It is rare God would interfere with the setup but it has happened I believe.
 

The Grey Man

το φως εν τη σκοτια φαινει
Local time
Today 5:25 PM
Joined
Oct 6, 2014
Messages
931
---
Location
Canada
I don't think you get the point that myself and dr froyd are making. Can there exist consciousness in a universe that doesn't allow for consciousness to exist? Obviously not. Therefore we (a conscious entity) must by definition be in a universe that DOES allow for consciousness to exist. This is true no matter how many universes there are.

If you want to discusss how these constances came to be that is a different question. But there is no why question to answer.
Again, the order of knowing is not the same as the order of being: we know that conscious beings exist because we know that we exist and are conscious, but to say that conscious beings exist because we, at least, exist is tantamount to saying that conscious beings exist because conscious beings exist, which is, again, circular—and to say that there is no 'why' question to answer is to arbitrarily halt the 'march of truth.'

Occam's Razor is about axioms/concepts, not things/objects.
A simple theory that results in multiple universes is more parsimonious than a complex theory that results in one universe.
Just though I would throw that out there as many seem to mistake the point of Occam's Razor.
I'm pretty sure Ockham's razor is about things. The classic statement of the razor is Non sunt multiplicanda entia sine necessitate—'Entities are not to be multiplied beyond necessity.' Its context was Ockham's rejection of medieval realism concerning universals and the scholastic theory of intelligible species, both of which, he thought, posited more entities than were necessary to explain human intellection.


"Ockham’s Razor is merely a cautionary methodological principle advising us not to endorse a metaphysical claim that requires us to posit the existence of more entities over a competing claim that does not, except under certain conditions."

so then if one asks: what's the probability that we observe a world suitable for life, conditioned on us living in one - well that probability is pretty damn high. If you express that probability as P(A | B) then we are analyzing everything strictly in terms of A | B whereas a creationism-from-fine-tuned argument talks in terms of P(A) - which we know absolutely nothing about. To start making assumptions about it - that would be an actual violation of occam's razor.
Yes, the probability that our universe supports life, given that it supports life, is 100%—but this explains nothing. It is circular or, at best, a tautology, like saying A is A. Do we need to make some kind of assumption to account for the existence of life? Yes, but this is how science works in general: if there were no leap from data to their explanation, it would be not an explanation but a mere record of the data, a list of instances of smoke following fire which furnishes no insight as to the cause of the phenomenon. C.S. Peirce rightly called the Ockhamite sensualistic nominalism which inspires such a positivistic conception of science a "philistine doctrine" which "blocks the road of inquiry." Ockham's razor must be complemented by the maxim that fewer entities are not to be posited than are sufficient to 'save the phenomena.'
 

Old Things

I am unworthy of His grace
Local time
Today 4:25 PM
Joined
Feb 24, 2021
Messages
2,936
---
I don't consider emergence incompatible with creationism, indeed I think it makes God more majestic. God didn't appear on Earth as a person to literally sculpt Adam out of clay then animate that clay golem like some mere magician. This is capital 'G' God we're talking about, he created man in the moment he created everything for he forsaw creating the universe in just the right way would result in the emergence of man.

It's a flex on anyone who would "play god" , like sure you might be able to 3D print custom DNA and grow a new kind of person in a vat, but nobody's doing it the way God did it.
Allow me to make this very clear. Creating life simulating the conditions the earth had to randomly create one protein necessary in life would take so long that it is impossible. It has not been done. Not anywhere in the ballpark. Not a little, not close, not near, nothing. And that is already given we DO already have a planet suitable for life, which is already astronomically improbable. Naturalists try to get around this by positing a universe generating a Pez dispenser, but the Pez dispenser is already fine-tuned to create universes.

 

Thurlor

Nutter
Local time
Tomorrow 9:25 AM
Joined
Jul 8, 2012
Messages
643
---
Location
Victoria, Australia
It's the same sort of argument that posits that life did not arise out of inorganic material because it's basically impossible for that to happen.
Why would it be impossible for life to come from non-life? What aspect of reality makes that impossible? To me it just seems like a case of emergent properties.
You could just as easily claim that chemistry can't arise from atomic theory.
 

Old Things

I am unworthy of His grace
Local time
Today 4:25 PM
Joined
Feb 24, 2021
Messages
2,936
---
It's the same sort of argument that posits that life did not arise out of inorganic material because it's basically impossible for that to happen.
Why would it be impossible for life to come from non-life? What aspect of reality makes that impossible? To me it just seems like a case of emergent properties.
You could just as easily claim that chemistry can't arise from atomic theory.

You have no idea what you are talking about.

 

fluffy

Pony Influencer
Local time
Today 3:25 PM
Joined
Sep 21, 2024
Messages
531
---
@The Grey Man

The intelligibly of the world tells us that there might be a reason. But as we need to understand what intelligence is before we can ascribe it to the entity beyond us, then what rational we come up with is derived by the principle of it.

So we are intelligent and we are for this place in us. I can expand the maths of it but in simple terms: our apparatus is in the convergent looping of a high dimensional vector on direction towards good outcomes.

God then is much higher is knowing which convergent outcomes are best as he encompasses all outcomes.

Not that all outcomes exist but we move to one involved with Gods intervention and our free will.
 

Thurlor

Nutter
Local time
Tomorrow 9:25 AM
Joined
Jul 8, 2012
Messages
643
---
Location
Victoria, Australia
@The Grey Man

I'm not arguing that conscious beings exist because we exist. Rather, I'm pointing out that, as conscious beings, we must be in a universe that allows for consciousness to exist. This is a statement about the necessary conditions for our existence, not a proof of our existence itself.

I think this is the difference between the Weak and Strong versions of the Anthropic Principle. I agree, the Strong version is an unfounded circular claim. But the weak version is just a statement of what is.
 

Hadoblado

think again losers
Local time
Tomorrow 7:55 AM
Joined
Mar 17, 2011
Messages
7,065
---
Is this universe good though?

Life exists where it does because of the anthropic principle. You call the universe good because by necessity you exist in the .000000000000000000000000001% of it that won't kill us instantly.

This is before we assume anything about the nature of how the properties of the universe are determined.

If I throw a handful of gravel and happen to hit a target with a small percentage of them, you wouldn't call my throwing technique finely tuned. Likewise, us existing in the tiny pocket of the universe that we can exist implies a complete lack of fine tuning.

The universe is neither good nor fine tuned.
 

dr froyd

__________________________________________________
Local time
Today 10:25 PM
Joined
Jan 26, 2015
Messages
1,485
---
Again, the order of knowing is not the same as the order of being: we know that conscious beings exist because we know that we exist and are conscious, but to say that conscious beings exist because we, at least, exist is tantamount to saying that conscious beings exist because conscious beings exist, which is, again, circular—and to say that there is no 'why' question to answer is to arbitrarily halt the 'march of truth.'
the anthropic principle simply says that what we observe must be constrained by the fact that we exist. No more, no less. It doesn't say anything about why things exist - that's something you introduce into the equation.

the point, at least the way i see it, is simply that it's meaningless to infer things from the improbability of a particular configuration if you cannot observe any other. If your ability to observe a specific outcome is dependent on that outcome facilitating your existence, it is a flawed argument to say that "it was so unlikely that it must have been by design". Because - it doesn't matter how unlikely it was.

regardless of whether a universe looks fine-tuned or not one can keep asking "but whyyyyyy does it exist". That's an enitrely separate subject.
 

scorpiomover

The little professor
Local time
Today 10:25 PM
Joined
May 3, 2011
Messages
3,383
---
I just don't get it. Why is it considered such a compelling argument/question? Am I missing some profound insight into reality that philosophers are privy to? As it stands it seems like such a shallow issue.

The Weak Anthropic Principle would seem to make any inquiry into the issue absolutely pointless.

Maybe I am too literal and a-spiritual. What am I missing?
The anthropic principle/fallacy is a basic principle of relativity and quantum physics, that everything we observe and think about, is only from our perspective.

In other words, we only look at things from the perspective of being in the driver's seat of our car. We often struggle to look at things from a different perspective than our own.

Lots of white people don't really know what it's like to be BIPOC. They just think of what it's like to be white, and assume that being BIPOC is something like that.

To understand things from someone else's perspective, requires some effort, because humans are usually observing and reacting according to their perspective and their needs, and so to see things from someone else's perpective, you have to push your mind to do things a bit differently.

So the argument goes like this:
1) Fine-tuning argument: Empirically, this planet was unlikely to happen randomly.
2) Anthropic principle: You're biased.

However, it does apply to lots of things, e.g. just because Europeans had never seen black swans, didn't mean they didn't exist. It didn't even mean that black swans were unlikely to exist.

In reality, if you don't see black swans, it just means that your life's experiences are consistent with your reality enough that your mind had no motivation to add the concept of multi-coloured swans to your internal set of known concepts that is kept in your memory.

You just didn't have a reason to think that swans could be multi-coloured. So your mind saved on energy and resources by not adding this potential complication to your thinking. Rule of Parsimony.

So really, dismissing the Fine-Tuning argument without taking it seriously, would be an example of the anthropic fallacy, as we're only assuming that the argument doesn't prove anything, just because we might be biased. It's no different than saying "Isn't it highly unlikely that all swans are white?" and someone else replying "You wouldn't even ask that question if they hadn't all been white."

It's no biggie. It's just the difference between a 5-second answer, and spending 2 hours working back and forth on the problem, till you come up with a more complex and comprehensive response.
 

The Grey Man

το φως εν τη σκοτια φαινει
Local time
Today 5:25 PM
Joined
Oct 6, 2014
Messages
931
---
Location
Canada
the anthropic principle simply says that what we observe must be constrained by the fact that we exist. No more, no less. It doesn't say anything about why things exist - that's something you introduce into the equation.
I think it's good to emphasize that the Weak Anthropic Principle says no more than that what we observe must be compatible with our observing it because the whole point of the Fine-tuning Argument is to demonstrate the existence of God by showing that it is necessary to posit it to explain the existence of life, and we still hear people make the claim, including in this very thread, that the Principle itself somehow explains the existence of life or at any rate makes the search for an explanation unnecessary or imprudent. Admittedly I don't favour the Fine-tuning Argument—I prefer Aquinas's Five Ways—but it can't hurt to give it its due.
Life exists where it does because of the anthropic principle. You call the universe good because by necessity you exist in the .000000000000000000000000001% of it that won't kill us instantly.
.000000000000000000000000001% isn't much, but it's more than 0, and that's enough. That most of the universe would kill us instantly could mean either that there is no Creator of the universe who especially cares about us, or that a thing's size is not an accurate measure of how much God cares about it. For my part, I don't see anything wrong with the second option.
 

fluffy

Pony Influencer
Local time
Today 3:25 PM
Joined
Sep 21, 2024
Messages
531
---
When I hear the terms "fine-tuning" in my experience it always comes in the context of physics.

As I said we can explain physics with geometry and multiple configurations of matter in universe's is not necessary.

If different geometry did exist we would not have gravity or electrons or other things but it's not the same as if we could make the constraints in such a way we could create anything like in a computer world.

If we lined things up though, all next to each other as in we made each set of universe follow rules that was possible then many would not contain the conditions for life.

Once more this is not the same as divergent worlds in Rick and Morty but actually the rules we are talking about, so some may have stronger gravity or weaker electron pull but the constraints would be on the geometry.

Configuration and rulesets are different considerations.

The first is the distribution of matter and energy the second is how those function.

Those might be connected but they also might not be.
 

The Grey Man

το φως εν τη σκοτια φαινει
Local time
Today 5:25 PM
Joined
Oct 6, 2014
Messages
931
---
Location
Canada
@dr froyd No, I don't believe in men from other planets who are not descendants of Adam, but I do think that UFOs are real. Jacques Vallée's Messengers of Deception (1979) is an example of a work which rejects the false dilemma that either UFOs are a simple hoax or they are manifestations of extraterrestrial visitors. This rejection, of course, raises the question of what UFOs are if they are not interstellar vehicles. The brief time I spent looking for an answer to this question was not good for my spiritual health, and as a result I am always somewhat diffident in sharing the information I found with other people. It is a really sordid topic, as is readily gathered from a perusal of Vallée's book.
 

Old Things

I am unworthy of His grace
Local time
Today 4:25 PM
Joined
Feb 24, 2021
Messages
2,936
---
This rejection, of course, raises the question of what UFOs are if they are not interstellar vehicles.

Demons.

"Lights in the Sky and Little Green Men" by Hugh Ross details this pretty well, showing that almost all of the close encounters with these beings are because either the person themselves or someone close to them is involved in the Occult. And strangely, these beings tend to leave you alone if you rebuke them in Jesus' name.
 

The Grey Man

το φως εν τη σκοτια φαινει
Local time
Today 5:25 PM
Joined
Oct 6, 2014
Messages
931
---
Location
Canada
I wasn't going to go there, but yeah. The Russian Orthodox priest Seraphim Rose (Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future) observed that these reports of 'close encounters' resemble nothing so much as accounts of demonic activity from Orthodox hagiography, and linked the rash of UFO sightings in the '60s to the rise of the 'New Age,' the charismatic renewal, and the ecumenical movement. This obviously does not exclude the hypothesis of Ross (and Vallée) that UFOs have something to do with certain occult human agencies. There's more, but I got too depressed to continue before I could get to the bottom of it.
 

Hadoblado

think again losers
Local time
Tomorrow 7:55 AM
Joined
Mar 17, 2011
Messages
7,065
---
Life exists where it does because of the anthropic principle. You call the universe good because by necessity you exist in the .000000000000000000000000001% of it that won't kill us instantly.
.000000000000000000000000001% isn't much, but it's more than 0, and that's enough. That most of the universe would kill us instantly could mean either that there is no Creator of the universe who especially cares about us, or that a thing's size is not an accurate measure of how much God cares about it. For my part, I don't see anything wrong with the second option.

There is nothing wrong with the second option on its own, but when you're interpreting the 'perfection' of existence as evidence of a perfect being, the imperfection of existence is a compelling counter-example. A universe this size that only supports a tiny amount of life is not fine-tuned, this is a direct refutation of the position.
 

dr froyd

__________________________________________________
Local time
Today 10:25 PM
Joined
Jan 26, 2015
Messages
1,485
---
@dr froyd No, I don't believe in men from other planets who are not descendants of Adam, but I do think that UFOs are real. Jacques Vallée's Messengers of Deception (1979) is an example of a work which rejects the false dilemma that either UFOs are a simple hoax or they are manifestations of extraterrestrial visitors. This rejection, of course, raises the question of what UFOs are if they are not interstellar vehicles. The brief time I spent looking for an answer to this question was not good for my spiritual health, and as a result I am always somewhat diffident in sharing the information I found with other people. It is a really sordid topic, as is readily gathered from a perusal of Vallée's book.
interesting!

that book looks like a major rabbit hole for sure
 

The Grey Man

το φως εν τη σκοτια φαινει
Local time
Today 5:25 PM
Joined
Oct 6, 2014
Messages
931
---
Location
Canada
@Hadoblado If the universe was absolutely perfect, this would actually dis-prove the existence of God as distinct from the universe because the universe would itself be God; the universe is perfect from a teleological perspective, a 'good universe,' if it fulfills the purpose for which it was created, assuming it was created. Now, if the universe was created, would it fulfil the purpose for which it was created? First of all, why, hypothetically, would God create the universe? The answer of natural theology is that God created the universe for His own glory. How much glory did He want? None, because He already glorifies Himself infinitely from Eternity. The glory He receives from creatures, specifically living, intelligent creatures, is therefore extra, so to speak; and what is extra remains superfluous, even if it is only a little bit of superfluity. Therefore the purpose for which the universe was created, assuming it was created, could be fulfilled even if there were only a few intelligent creatures to give him glory, perhaps even just one. It thus seems that the small number of living beings in the universe does not disprove creation—but the fact that there are more than 0 demands an explanation, notwithstanding the Anthropic Principle.

It might seem like a stretch to say that the purpose of creation could be fulfilled in one person, but that God doesn't care about numbers is exactly what we should expect from Christian revelation, according to which all men were condemned to death on account of the sin of a single man, Adam, and all men have been redeemed, at least potentially, by the merits of Christ: "For by a man came death, and by a man the resurrection of the dead. And as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive" (1 Corinthians 15:21-22).
 

fluffy

Pony Influencer
Local time
Today 3:25 PM
Joined
Sep 21, 2024
Messages
531
---
That life is purposeful would validate some aspect of the rules but not all.

We know the earth is not flat, turtles all the way down. Yet some require the earth to be "tuned" this way from one interpretational view of God.

It then must come down to what the math is telling us of the rules. Otherwise we live in a very small snow globe a-top turtles. :|
 

Hadoblado

think again losers
Local time
Tomorrow 7:55 AM
Joined
Mar 17, 2011
Messages
7,065
---
@Hadoblado If the universe was absolutely perfect, this would actually dis-prove the existence of God as distinct from the universe because the universe would itself be God; the universe is perfect from a teleological perspective, a 'good universe,' if it fulfills the purpose for which it was created, assuming it was created.

What is the purpose of the 99% of the universe that is not observable? You don't believe in aliens, so from your perspective it's not supporting life. Does this space serve a purpose or not?

Now, if the universe was created, would it fulfil the purpose for which it was created? First of all, why, hypothetically, would God create the universe? The answer of natural theology is that God created the universe for His own glory. How much glory did He want? None, because He already glorifies Himself infinitely from Eternity. The glory He receives from creatures, specifically living, intelligent creatures, is therefore extra, so to speak; and what is extra remains superfluous, even if it is only a little bit of superfluity. Therefore the purpose for which the universe was created, assuming it was created, could be fulfilled even if there were only a few intelligent creatures to give him glory, perhaps even just one. It thus seems that the small number of living beings in the universe does not disprove creation—but the fact that there are more than 0 demands an explanation, notwithstanding the Anthropic Principle.
It might seem like a stretch to say that the purpose of creation could be fulfilled in one person, but that God doesn't care about numbers is exactly what we should expect from Christian revelation, according to which all men were condemned to death on account of the sin of a single man, Adam, and all men have been redeemed, at least potentially, by the merits of Christ: "For by a man came death, and by a man the resurrection of the dead. And as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive" (1 Corinthians 15:21-22).

This stuff doesn't really make sense unless you assume your beliefs so I won't respond. The argument for a God (any god) is necessarily stronger than the argument for the Christian God (as it's an inclusive category). I find once people start quoting scripture etc. arguments get circular real quick - there's no longer a conversation to have.

I will say that I wasn't trying to disprove creation - I just don't think you can take any meaningful conclusion from the existence of life in the universe without some leaps, unless you believe life is logically impossible without God?
 

The Grey Man

το φως εν τη σκοτια φαινει
Local time
Today 5:25 PM
Joined
Oct 6, 2014
Messages
931
---
Location
Canada
@Hadoblado You asked whether the universe is good, and answered in the negative. I answer that it doesn't make sense to ask whether the universe is good before we have some standard by which to measure its goodness, nor can this standard be immanent to the universe, just as a hammer is not a good hammer because of its intrinsic properties but because it fulfills the use to which the worker puts it. The question I asked was, if, hypothetically, the universe was created by a transcendent God, would it achieve the end for which it was created? This question does not presuppose the credibility of Christian revelation—I only brought in the Bible to show that my conclusion, that it at least could achieve the end even if it hosted only a few intelligent beings, is not a "stretch," that it does not damage the credibility of revelation but is consonant with the Christian worldview. True, "The argument for a God (any god) is necessarily stronger than the argument for the Christian God (as it's an inclusive category)"; but my aim is never just to persuade people that God exists.

What is the purpose of the 99% of the universe that is not observable? You don't believe in aliens, so from your perspective it's not supporting life. Does this space serve a purpose or not?
The answer, I think, has to do with what exactly glory is. We glorify God by recognizing His infinite Majesty and our absolute dependence on Him, who created us out of nothing; and the excellence of His works is one of the means of this recognition. The immensity of the cosmos, in comparison with which man and his works are as nothing, is to provoke awe and praise for its Author. I'd quote more Scripture, but I'm now worried you'll think that my arguments are based on Scripture if I do.

I just don't think you can take any meaningful conclusion from the existence of life in the universe without some leaps, unless you believe life is logically impossible without God?
I prefer Aquinas's Five Ways because they seem more airtight, but if the most that can be said against the Fine-tuning Argument is that it requires a leap from a fact to be explained, life, to an explanation, then it seems pretty good to me. At least its critics should come up with a better alternative explanation than chance, which is no explanation at all.
 
Top Bottom