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The "Fe" Inner Child

Auburn

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I've seen a lot said on this topic scattered around the forum, but I believe it deserves a thread of it's own.;)

The "Fe" inferior function seems to be one of the greatest mysteries to the INTP. For some reason we tend to fear it, suppress it, starve it, deprive it of fresh air, lock it up in chains, and feed it only enough for it to stay alive...why?...

Why do we fear it so much? Must this fear we have of it be overcome? How is it that this child can develop? For those who have developed it, how did you do so? What are some practical ways that it can mature?

Feel free to share a story you may have; perhaps a time when it got you into trouble? perhaps a relationship that was severed by the misunderstanding of this part of you?
Basically:

What's happened when you've allowed it to come out and play? :D



 

Agent Intellect

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because the Fe inner child is autistic. i don't understand it and it doesn't understand me. it cannot be understood logically and clashes with the way my mind works. feelings don't compute, particularly other peoples feelings.
 

Dissident

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I feel like I dont have any Fe, my ocasional childish playfulness comes from Ne (I guess). I dont seem to have emotional bursts and stuff like that, either my inner child is yet unborn or bottling things up to make a Big Boom some day, who knows?
I have a very strong Fi tho, which Im not sure we INTPs are supposed to have.
 

Auburn

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Alright, I guess I'll start off with one of my own experiences with Fe.

When I learned about MBTI, and about the cognitive functions, I was able to understand why it was that I sometimes acted so out of nature under stressful circumstances. I began to realize that it was probably my underdeveloped Fe that caused me to do those things. This brought with it a greater acceptance of who I truly am; yet, I still had a lot of questions unanswered...

This enigma that Fe presented to me drove me to try to understand it even more. I searched for ways to comprehend it in others, but it just wouldn't seem to yield to my analysis.
AI said:
i don't understand it and it doesn't understand me. it cannot be understood logically and clashes with the way my mind works. feelings don't compute, particularly other peoples feelings.
I believe there may be some truth to this, though I woundn't say it's impossible to logically understand feelings.

Anyhow, having failed to understand it by analysis, I then chose a different approach - personal experience. I thought that perhaps the best way to understand Fe was to experience it first hand.

As I began to release this child more and more, I saw that he really wasn't that much of a danger if he was to be monitored closely. However, I still only allowed Fe to surface in safe circumstances. There were times when I'd kick myself for having let it out too much.

Later on, I became more comfortable expressing Fe in relationships. It brought out a romantic side of me that I never ever thought I had! A certain someone became very attached to me and greatly accelerated this development of Fe. Yet I always possess the ability of detachment, and can therefore choose to withdraw my Fe back inside at any time. My dominant function then takes full control, and I almost seem like a different person. Whenever I did this, it caused her to believe that it was all an "act", and that I was just pretending to love her the whole time.

...dang... I hate that...

...and... I'm not sure if there's any way to fix that problem...
 

severus

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See, from what I understand, Fe is so underdeveloped in most INTPs, it is basically the complete opposite of our normal behavior. So the question then becomes, how do we let the child out while still being ourselves?
 

Auburn

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So the question then becomes, how do we let the child out while still being ourselves?
Precisely!

Is it really being untrue to oneself to use this Fe?
 

Jennywocky

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Could we define what people are thinking when they think of Fe?
It's so abstracted right now, it's hard to know if people are thinking of the same thing.

My Fe is really just another language and paradigm I can place myself in with regards to correctly and appropriately expressing my level of commitment to the people and community around me. Certain verbal and behavioral cues convey internally held attitudes.

Sometimes this gets equated with "emotional displays" but I don't really think that's what Fe is. That's a side effect. We can discuss why INTPs sometimes feel oppressed and are even set off by Fe impositions. That's usually what I see -- the INTP's desire for autonomy wars with Fe's sense of appropriateness and obligation, creating emotional turmoil.
 

Ermine

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I don't really fear my Fe as much as I do my shadow functions as a whole. Along with my Ne, my inner child and I have a good time doing odd things because I feel like it, playing with music, and generally being a somewhat illogical free spirit. I've yet to apply this to relationships, though.

A time when I let my Fe child come out and play was in 8th and 9th grade. Must have been the teenage hormones. I ended up maintaining an ESFJ facade, while staying the same on the inside. I was most popular in school at that point, but I was constantly in conflict with myself and others, and it showed in every facet of my life. Needless to say, it wasn't pretty.
 

Auburn

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Could we define what people are thinking when they think of Fe?
It's so abstracted right now, it's hard to know if people are thinking of the same thing.

As for myself when I say Fe, I agree with Fernando.

I have a good time doing odd things because I feel like it, playing with music, and generally being a somewhat illogical free spirit.

It's like a state of "unbridled expression" where I am free to act in sync with my feelings. It's also quite an impulsive function that reacts to the environment I am in at that moment.

Some specifics:

Expressing appreciation
Being openly romantic
Joyfully and openly going up to family members to hug them
Empathizing with people - counseling
Speaking my mind about human injustice (values)
Speaking from my heart [what I feel at the moment]
Just acting like a tender little child in general


...dang...I sound like such a panzy...
 
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Jennywocky

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As for myself when I say Fe, I agree with Fernando. It's like a state of "unbridled expression" where I am free to act in sync with my inner feelings. It's also quite an impulsive function that reacts to the environment I am in at that moment.

So where did you get this description from? It doesn't seem to be one I've ever run across before in my discussions of type. What you describe seems to be much more like Fi to me -- the feeling sense is coming from INSIDE, that's what is generating it, and its whole point as you refer to it is to express itself in the external so that it can then again impact the inner.

Look at Ti and Te -- Ti figures out the essence of things and begins internalized (organizing the nature of things), while Te is about implementing logical rules in the external world for the purposes of organizing or completing tasks, pushing things towards a goal.

Fi and Fe should compare similarly. Fe's focus is not the internal world, it's the external -- it starts with the external, going inside, then back to the external (the external is the object of focus), as opposed to an introverted function that starts internally, heads out, then comes back.
 

Auburn

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Jennywocky said:
So where did you get this description from? It doesn't seem to be one I've ever run across before in my discussions of type.
I really am sorry if this is not making sense, I'm just describing it the way I see it in myself. I'm not using any official descriptions, just personal experience - so I understand that I may be mistaken...
Fi and Fe should compare similarly. Fe's focus is not the internal world, it's the external -- it starts with the external, going inside, then back to the external (the external is the object of focus), as opposed to an introverted function that starts internally, heads out, then comes back.

...actually you said it better than I did :D. I guess I didn't really mean "inner feelings". The Fe you describes is exactly what I experience. It does not start internally, it reacts to the stimulation of the exterior world. It is not a shy function at all, but rather brave and open about it's expression.
 

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:eek:

You sure about that? Careful, now. It's easy to get functions mixed up.

I bet thats possible, but those tests to measure each function individually put Fi close behind Ne (as they did to many others according to that other thread), and Fe as almost unused.

Fe is in the Aspirational Role
The Aspirational Role (Inferior) (sometimes referred to as the 4th function)
The aspirational role usually doesn’t develop until around midlife. We often experience it first in its negative aspect of projecting our “shoulds,” fears, and negativities onto others. The qualities of these fears reflect the process that plays this role, and we are more likely to look immature when we engage in the process that plays this role. There is often a fairly high energy cost for using it—even when we acquire the skill to do so. As we learn to trust it and develop it, the aspirational role process provides a bridge to balance in our lives. Often our sense of purpose, inspiration, and ideals have the qualities of the process that plays this role.
Fi is in the Devilish Role
The Devilish Role (sometimes referred to as the 8th function)
The devilish role can be quite negative. Using the process that plays this role, we might become destructive of ourselves or others. Actions (or inactions) taken when we engage in the process that plays this role are often regretted later. Usually, we are unaware of how to use the process that fills this role and feel like it just erupts and imposes itself rather unconsciously. Yet when we are open to the process that plays the devilish role, it becomes transformative. It gives us the impetus to create something new—to make lemonade out of lemons, rather than lament their sourness.
http://www.cognitiveprocesses.com/16types.html
 

Agent Intellect

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Fe is kind of what gives us the chameleon affect, isn' it?

i have a difficult time letting out any emotions, and when i do, i often wish i hadn't immediately after. but i have an even harder time with other peoples emotions. when people start emoting all over me, its like trying to fit a square block into a circular hole; my brain just freezes up and flashes error messages and i just stand there feeling awkward, wishing i could turn and run. if i'm in a group of people for whatever reason, i will avoid anyone thats getting emotional as much as possible. if a movie or television show starts getting over-emotional, i'll usually make jokes about it as sort of a defense mechanism if my Fe starts "empathising" too much.
 

Jennywocky

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I really am sorry if this is not making sense, I'm just describing it the way I see it in myself. I'm not using any official descriptions, just personal experience - so I understand that I may be mistaken...

no harm meant, I do not mean to sound overbearing at all, so I'm sorry. I know Berens and some prominent others explore Fe in detail in their writings, you can probably find things online.


***
Honestly, I think Fe is hard to pinpoint because of the "emotional" aspects that get dumped on the F functions and sloughed off T functions. I think in most of the hardcore discussions you will see people just come out and say, "F is about VALUES, not feelings/emotions." Still, our values are tied to feelings in some ways more than our thinking logic is, so it is hard to separate.

The Fe strong people on our board are interesting for me to read (ExFJs), I sometimes think I still fail to grasp what they say. Because it's not my natural mode.

As far as the chameleon thing goes, yes, I think it's part of that. I probably described it in the past, but here is my background, which forced me to Fe like crazy... but in lopsided ways:

My father (ESTP) is an alcoholic. My mother (ISFJ) is an enabler and was raised to be a model woman in a country baptist-style church and never lost that. My home wasn't safe for me to Ti much at all. Ti'ing would only draw my dad's ire (where he would immediately dismiss or crush my viewpoint) and only hurt my mom, who was SOOO Fe-oriented and also vulnerable from dealing with my father that she only saw life in terms of doing your duties and being nice to people; anything else would send her crying.

Couple that with my social anxiety, and that is how Fe got used. I applied all of my Ti and Ne towards "learning the social rules." I would immediately size up people, figure out their expectations before I interacted with them, then seek to make a connection and ingratiate myself (all for good reasons). I would not show them all of me, I would only show them the parts of me I intuitively knew they would value and accept.

That's basically the chameleon effect -- where you become who you need to be to mesh with whoever you're around. I would be very uncomfortable (to the point of tears) in new situations where I didn't KNOW the expectations and was afraid of offending someone by accident; I would feel like I had a lack of integrity if I felt certain ways inside but acted differently on the surface just to avoid conflict; or if I shared too much with someone that I knew could get around and disrupt my masks with other people.

This was basically Fe at work, but it was Fe being used to manipulate for my own safety and comfort. So it was lopsided.

In the last few years, being so actively involved with online communities, I realized Fe could actually be used in LOTS of ways. It's used to signal your commitments to someone through a socially agreed-upon sign.

(Basically, it's like telling someone you love them or respect them, but without having to use words; it allows them to EXPERIENCE your commitment by your action or ways of saying something. It's not actually "fake" although you can of course manipulate people using Fe. INTPs seem to value words and telling people things; but other sorts of people actually can't value words that much, they need to experience it. See how a conflict arises?)

It's also used to draw hard boundaries when you feel like someone is encroaching on yours. The same lines of connection that you feel are "caging" you sometimes can also be used to protect yourself and draw limits.

It can be used positively, to pull people together, rather than to dominate them by your way of thinking.

As far as the emotions go... I'm not sure how all that fits in. I just want to avoid the thought that Fe is all about "showing of feelings," although feelings do often come along with values-expression and might even drive what values we hold to some degree. INTPs might explode in an Fe-attributable fit of rage when they're stressed, but Fe is a lot more than that.

***
Anyway, when someone says the "Fe Inner Child," I'm left thinking more about a child who wants to please people and be accepted into the community.

***
We often experience it first in its negative aspect of projecting our “shoulds,” fears, and negativities onto others. The qualities of these fears reflect the process that plays this role, and we are more likely to look immature when we engage in the process that plays this role. There is often a fairly high energy cost for using it—even when we acquire the skill to do so. As we learn to trust it and develop it, the aspirational role process provides a bridge to balance in our lives. Often our sense of purpose, inspiration, and ideals have the qualities of the process that plays this role.

I agree with all this, although it doesn't really flesh out at all how a particular function probably 'works' in tangible reality. How do we think Fe would manifest for an INTP? How does it differ between INTPs? Etc.

For me, it was the sense that I am actually part of a community, rather than some isolated observer, and I can use my insight and imagination to direct the social current. I realized that the interaction is far more than a discussion of the content, I'm actually "weaving together a community" -- a web of safety and openness and fairness and other intangibles -- that people can experience on some level and lock into. My role is important in a diverse community, but not better than another's. THis might limit my role, but it also gives me my "place" in a way that I can expand to fill that place. So it is empowering.

Fi is harder. I think it messes with Ti directly. You either look at the essence of things as they are, or you look at how you personally value that essence. THey're both in competition with each other. (Fi is where I am learning it's okay to fight for something just because I believe in it and value it, even if I can't show why it's more important to fight for than something else or can't prove it's inherently better.)
 

flow

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This is a great thread! I think we've all been trying to figure this "Fe" thing out. I can only think of a handful of times in my life that I've become emotional... and they were always triggered by very close, dear friends.
 

Auburn

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Jenny said:
no harm meant, I do not mean to sound overbearing at all, so I'm sorry. I know Berens and some prominent others explore Fe in detail in their writings, you can probably find things online.

Yeah, I recently ordered one of her books - it's supposed to get here soon. :D

Jenny said:
...Couple that with my social anxiety, and that is how Fe got used. I applied all of my Ti and Ne towards "learning the social rules." I would immediately size up people, figure out their expectations before I interacted with them, then seek to make a connection and ingratiate myself (all for good reasons).

That's basically the chameleon effect -- where you become who you need to be to mesh with whoever you're around. This was basically Fe at work, but it was Fe being used to manipulate for my own safety and comfort.

I do this exact same thing too; likewise, all for good reasons. Still, I can't help but wonder if using this chameleon effect is a form of being dishonest to myself.

hmmmm...
I guess the question is: Is a chameleon being true to himself only when he's the default green color? Is he also being true to himself when he's blending into his environment? Is not camouflage a natural part of a chameleon, and therefore "true" to it's nature?

Is not using Fe a natural part of an INTP, and therefore true to our nature?
 
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Chimera

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I guess the question is: Is a chameleon being true to himself only when he's the default green color? Is he also being true to himself when he's blending into his environment? Is not camouflage a natural part of a chameleon, and therefore "true" to it's nature?

_________
____________

Being "true to yourself" is a very difficult concept for me to grasp. Isn't everything we do true to ourself? We act how we're supposed to according to ourselves, even if our actions are in disagreement with our thoughts or beliefs.
It makes no sense to me when people say they're not being true to themselves. The chameleon effect, for example, is a part of yourself, and by exercising it you're being true to yourself even if the camoflague isn't who you really are. In some cases, it would be considered "untrue to yourself" not to be a chameleon. How you function is part of who you are.

I would remark on the "Fe" discussion, but honestly, I'm so confused by the emotion/feeling-not-connected-to-Fe/Fi discussion I can hardly even pretend to know what I'm talking about. . .
____________
_________
 

Agent Intellect

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is the INTP more suseptible to being molded into something? i always thought the chameleon affect was more of a very temporary thing. like when i'm at work i act different then i do when i'm with family, or with a couple friends, or talking to people on an internet forum. i sort of act the way i'm "expected" to act. i'm always the same on the inside, but i put on the different masks. the way Jenny describes it, it sounds like a more permanent thing.

i guess the one way i could say my Fe gets let out is when i get a chance to describe some new idea or theory i've read about or come up with myself. a guy at my work is interested in physics and other sciences, and i'll get physically excited when i get a chance to talk to him (he works in a different area) about some new thing, where i'll start "emoting" by waving my arms about with a passion for it. i've also always been a very loyal person to the few friends i've had over my lifetime. even if i'm not the kind of person that hugs my friends and stuff, i think they know that i would probably kill or lie in court for them if it came to that.
 

loveofreason

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So Fe is the social drive to create meaningful bonds and connections? The intelligence that knows all the right gestures?

Couple that with my social anxiety, and that is how Fe got used. I applied all of my Ti and Ne towards "learning the social rules." I would immediately size up people, figure out their expectations before I interacted with them, then seek to make a connection and ingratiate myself (all for good reasons). I would not show them all of me, I would only show them the parts of me I intuitively knew they would value and accept.

That's basically the chameleon effect -- where you become who you need to be to mesh with whoever you're around. I would be very uncomfortable (to the point of tears) in new situations where I didn't KNOW the expectations and was afraid of offending someone by accident; I would feel like I had a lack of integrity if I felt certain ways inside but acted differently on the surface just to avoid conflict; or if I shared too much with someone that I knew could get around and disrupt my masks with other people.

This was basically Fe at work, but it was Fe being used to manipulate for my own safety and comfort. So it was lopsided.

I learned to behave in such a similar way.

My internalised ISFJ role-model mother is so overwhelming. I get such an intractable sense of panic that commands me to use Fe to prevent those around me from destroying me. But consequently I see all social connections as artificial contrivances. Mere dances of survival. I can't really grasp how Fe operates in a positive way...

even though I arrived at a stage of community building some four years ago, and initially flourished at creating a network for people who seek support from one another. (The vision stage.) I am exhausted by it now, and never permit myself to actually be a part of it. I'm just observing this connection web from an emotional distance. Tweaking here, tweaking there. I'd like to simply abandon it - I no longer have the resources for it.

Maybe this was healthy Fe development at the time, but when I think about it now I'm numb.


So is it correct to say that the inner emotional child flourishes in an environment of healthy Fe? Is this how they are related?

If so I can see how I have learned to mistrust and crush my emotional self. Pre-emptive crushing = a natural consequence of an Fe unstable, hostile or deceptive environment. The child knows when it's being lied to, and under such circumstances where Fe (social values) can't be trusted to provide a secure space for the expression of emotion, the obvious solution is to turn inwards. To become self depriving and suspicious.


I'm happy to accept that the inner emotional child is not actually an Fe or Fi thing, but a thing in it's own fight for survival under circumstances where Feeling values are corrupted.


Personally, if I ever let the emotional child lead then things go wrong. Even if it fleetingly feels good, it winds up costing me more than I have to give. I simply can't recognise the traps, nor do I have the sophistication to meet its needs and keep it healthy. I have no aptitude for caring for myself.
 

sagewolf

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is the INTP more suseptible to being molded into something? i always thought the chameleon affect was more of a very temporary thing. like when i'm at work i act different then i do when i'm with family, or with a couple friends, or talking to people on an internet forum. i sort of act the way i'm "expected" to act. i'm always the same on the inside, but i put on the different masks. the way Jenny describes it, it sounds like a more permanent thing.

People in general are like that, though, aren't they? My parents are slightly different people in my company than they would be in each other's (thank goodness! ;)). We put on different faces depending on who we react to and what we react to.

My Fe... god I don't know. It's like a little kid, and my Ti is its over-protective older sibling. The Fe wants to go out and play, but the Ti is worried that it will do something to get itself hurt, so it doesn't let it out. Then when the Ti slips, the Fe gets out and sometimes it does get hurt, so the Ti is less eager to let it out again. Sometimes all goes well and the Fe returns inside on its own, no ill-effects, so the Ti feels better about letting it out. And sometimes, in true little-sibling fashion, it throws a major tantrum and the Ti ends up majorly mad at it.
 

severus

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I like these metaphors(?), but now I forget how this is operating in reality. Does anyone have a decent definition for Fe? What exactly does this thing do? (My google searches have failed me.)
 

EloquentBohemian

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Though I do not have the skills and understanding in MBTI that others here do, I found this to be a good start.
I'm still trying to understand this side of myself.
 

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Though I do not have the skills and understanding in MBTI that others here do, I found this to be a good start.
I'm still trying to understand this side of myself.

I have a lot of trouble. The problem is the Guardians are such liars. Also, the girls play tricks with their strange logic. It might be interesting, but so much messing about, just upsets me. OK if they are single, but if they are playing the field, it is a drag.
 

Auburn

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Severus said:
Does anyone have a decent definition for Fe?

Just a little more information on Fe:

[Keep in mind, this isn't specific to INTPs; it's a general description for all types]
Fe - Extraverted Feeling
The process of extraverted Feeling often involves a desire to connect with (or disconnect from) others and is often evidenced by expressions of warmth (or displeasure) and self-disclosure. The “social graces,” such as being polite, being nice, being friendly, being considerate, and being appropriate, often revolve around the process of extraverted Feeling. Keeping in touch, laughing at jokes when others laugh, and trying to get people to act kindly to each other also involve extraverted Feeling. Using this process, we respond according to expressed or even unexpressed wants and needs of others. We may ask people what they want or need or self-disclose to prompt them to talk more about themselves. This often sparks conversation and lets us know more about them so we can better adjust our behavior to them. Often with this process, we feel pulled to be responsible and take care of others’ feelings, sometimes to the point of not separating our feelings from theirs. We may recognize and adhere to shared values, feelings, and social norms to get along.
http://www.cognitiveprocesses.com/extravertedfeeling.html
 

Jesin

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I think the chameleon effect may have been misexplained. (Or maybe I'm the one who's wrong.)

One example is, when you see a particularly awkward moment on TV, you feel embarrassed yourself.
 

flow

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this is a great excerpt from the article EloquentBohemian referred to.

"The feeling shadow is the fear centre of the INTP. He rarely fears any factual thing in the outside world, at least not things that will be encountered in normal day-to-day living. Logic stipulates that external objects or people which threaten can always potentially be dealt with by instigating an active defence strategy. Of course, the possibility of being left truly helpless leaves the INTP cold, for once the Ti core is defeated, the inferior Fe can offer little comfort. Resigned acceptance of the unacceptable is an anathema for INTPs. His typical response to helplessness is to hate the world which has produced it. However, the greatest fears of an INTP are usually ideas generated within his own mind. The problem is that the Ti-Ne axis is capable of conceiving very unpleasant ideas, which may be far from reality and even irrational. Ideas and possibilities assume so much importance in the mind of an INTP that they can override a common sense factual grasp on reality. Since the emotional response to an unpleasant idea is based on an underdeveloped function, it may also fail to bring a return to common sense. The net result is the fear that ideas alone may lead to self-destruction. This fear is irrational and is a cry of help from the feeling shadow when being overdominated by the Ti-Ne axis. This problem can be overcome when more balanced type dynamics result from increasing maturity."
 

severus

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I think the chameleon effect may have been misexplained. (Or maybe I'm the one who's wrong.)

One example is, when you see a particularly awkward moment on TV, you feel embarrassed yourself.

I like this one better. Or rather, I have experienced it in this way more.
And thanks for the links, I shall run off and look at those now.
 

sagewolf

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As far as I can tell, my Fe is somewhat more immediate than my Ti; it comes to conclusions a lot more quickly that I could come to them by thinking. They're not always the best decisions, so I'm cagy about listening to this side of myself, though. My Fe has one thing going for it in a big way: its decisions seem more sincere and intuitive than what I come up with through my Ti. (If someone's being a jerk, and this decision is "Plant a fist in his face!", then I tend to not listen, and my Ti takes over. This is one reason why I don't listen to my Fe very often.)

My Ti feels like a more considered, refined, and slower-working function than my Fe. What's more, I never feel any drive to express the conclusions I come to through it to other people. I'm happy with knowing them myself.

I think that the Ti-Fe partnership is why I don't like talking about my emotions. The expression of emotion through spoken language requires me to filter my Fe through my Ti, and they don't seem to mesh very well. Every time I try to express how I 'feel', it comes out as sounding stupid and halting-- a failure from both points of view. So I don't bother.
 

Tiger

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this is a great excerpt from the article EloquentBohemian referred to.

"The feeling shadow is the fear centre of the INTP. He rarely fears any factual thing in the outside world, at least not things that will be encountered in normal day-to-day living. Logic stipulates that external objects or people which threaten can always potentially be dealt with by instigating an active defence strategy. Of course, the possibility of being left truly helpless leaves the INTP cold, for once the Ti core is defeated, the inferior Fe can offer little comfort. Resigned acceptance of the unacceptable is an anathema for INTPs. His typical response to helplessness is to hate the world which has produced it. However, the greatest fears of an INTP are usually ideas generated within his own mind. The problem is that the Ti-Ne axis is capable of conceiving very unpleasant ideas, which may be far from reality and even irrational. Ideas and possibilities assume so much importance in the mind of an INTP that they can override a common sense factual grasp on reality. Since the emotional response to an unpleasant idea is based on an underdeveloped function, it may also fail to bring a return to common sense. The net result is the fear that ideas alone may lead to self-destruction. This fear is irrational and is a cry of help from the feeling shadow when being overdominated by the Ti-Ne axis. This problem can be overcome when more balanced type dynamics result from increasing maturity."
= shyness?
 

Agent Intellect

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this is a great excerpt from the article EloquentBohemian referred to.

"The feeling shadow is the fear centre of the INTP. He rarely fears any factual thing in the outside world, at least not things that will be encountered in normal day-to-day living. Logic stipulates that external objects or people which threaten can always potentially be dealt with by instigating an active defence strategy. Of course, the possibility of being left truly helpless leaves the INTP cold, for once the Ti core is defeated, the inferior Fe can offer little comfort. Resigned acceptance of the unacceptable is an anathema for INTPs. His typical response to helplessness is to hate the world which has produced it. However, the greatest fears of an INTP are usually ideas generated within his own mind. The problem is that the Ti-Ne axis is capable of conceiving very unpleasant ideas, which may be far from reality and even irrational. Ideas and possibilities assume so much importance in the mind of an INTP that they can override a common sense factual grasp on reality. Since the emotional response to an unpleasant idea is based on an underdeveloped function, it may also fail to bring a return to common sense. The net result is the fear that ideas alone may lead to self-destruction. This fear is irrational and is a cry of help from the feeling shadow when being overdominated by the Ti-Ne axis. This problem can be overcome when more balanced type dynamics result from increasing maturity."

i'm speechless at how accurate someone else can describe how my own mind works.
 

Auburn

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Extraverted Feeling judgement, Fe, is the shadow function of the INTP, being by far the least developed of his faculties. Indeed, mature use of Fe typically doesn't begin to take shape until well into middle age.
Would it be presumptuous of me to say that my Fe is already fairly developed? This is an honest question. Is Fe's maturity truly an age determined factor or is it based on the amount of exposure Fe is give?

"...mature use of the Fe typically doesn't..."

Perhaps I can use it, but not maturely? What exactly is mature use?
[/FONT]
 

westy

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I would say the Fe function is like another language, it uses the same alphabet with the addition of accents. But if you sit down with a good dictionary you can get the most of the meaning from it.


damn empathy only comes out when i drink.
 

loveofreason

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[FONT=Tahoma,Helvetica]Would it be presumptuous of me to say that my Fe is already fairly developed? This is an honest question. Is Fe's maturity truly an age determined factor or is it based on the amount of exposure Fe is give?

"...mature use of the Fe typically doesn't..."

Perhaps I can use it, but not maturely? What exactly is mature use?
[/FONT]

I think it depends more on our experiences and pressures how soon we develop a mature grasp of Fe.

I started exercising it constructively around four years ago when I reasoned out that the only way to experience a community that was friendly to my way of perceiving the world was to build the damn thing myself.

I created a very well received and supportive network, but then stepped away from it and abandoned it's upkeep as I found myself embroiled in my own intimate failures again. In my total lack of Fi wisdom.

Was that mature?

If you wonder how well your Fe is developed I guess it means asking yourself how you regard the welfare of the group. I was rationally putting together puzzle pieces for optimum performance when I created my first network. Yes, they were people, but they were abstract people. I filled in my lack of empathy with imagination.

Hmmm... actually I guess that is cobbled together Fe, manufactured from my other functions. Perhaps I have yet to truly feel the tug of Fe.

(Childish emotions on the other hand..... )
 

EditorOne

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"The problem is that the Ti-Ne axis is capable of conceiving very unpleasant ideas, which may be far from reality and even irrational. Ideas and possibilities assume so much importance in the mind of an INTP that they can override a common sense factual grasp on reality. Since the emotional response to an unpleasant idea is based on an underdeveloped function, it may also fail to bring a return to common sense. The net result is the fear that ideas alone may lead to self-destruction. This fear is irrational and is a cry of help from the feeling shadow when being overdominated by the Ti-Ne axis."

Can I get an "amen" from the congregation? Like Agent Intellect, I'm nailed.



"This problem can be overcome when more balanced type dynamics result from increasing maturity."

Oh, don't count on it. :-)

Earlier there was some discussion of thinking out this Fe stuff in order to deploy it ...ummm ... in a thinking way? I'm not so sure you can think it out to the point where you understand it, but, as some have kind of said, you can observe over a period of time and incorporate actions and sentences into your schtick that others seem to find emotionally functional. You gradually become less socially awkward, as you gain confidence wielding a kind of tool you don't really understand and don't particularly expect to do the job for you.

You can also get positive surprises from your Fe. A long time ago I did a story about a mentally deficient village character who died. He'd always wanted to join the volunteer fire department, but they couldn't let him because he really would kill himself or get someone else hurt. But when he died, they put his coffin on the fire truck and that's how he went to his viewing, his funeral and the cemetery. I just wrote it up, and had people coming to me in tears afterward because of the impact the writing had. Not his friends; I'm talking about my boiled-shoe managing editor and other reporters. I'm like "WTF?" because all I did was present what I thought was the man's central life irony in a logical way. Hah. I tucked it all away in the mental folder "things that make people cry."

"They buried gentle George on Wednesday, taking him to the cemetery aboard the bright red fire truck he was never allowed to ride while he was alive."

See, I still remember. Anybody in here tearing up? I thought not. :-)

This has been a great thread, right down to people apologizing for not making enough sense. How INTP is that? :-)
 

Ermine

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That happened to me too. It's ironic how my writing can influence people to tears, but I can't seem to react to emotions appropriately on a personal level.
 

Wisp

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Hmmm... I find myself just sort of... staring at the floors during funerals...
 

GarmGarf

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"In funerals, it is not the dead who are mourned for, but those left of being."

Sure, you mourn for their departure, but this is because it is you who is emotionally left at unease.

When people realize this, and drop a bit of selfishness, one day funerals may have joyful atmospheres: "an individual is now free from the burdens of existence, but possibly even better: existing in heaven".
 

severus

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...or hell.
 

Jesin

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...or Asgard.
 

Ogion

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...or inexistent. Whatever, is not important since we have no connection to 'there' anyway.

Ogion
 

EditorOne

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"When people realize this, and drop a bit of selfishness, one day funerals may have joyful atmospheres: "an individual is now free from the burdens of existence, but possibly even better: existing in heaven".'


Well now. A hundred and 50 years ago our ancestors dealt with death a lot better than we do. There was more of it in some ways -- families started out bigger because so many children died, for instance. But they pretty much got the ritual to work in support of what we now recognize as the various stages of grief. The funeral or wake was the ceremonial jolt that overcame the "denial' phase, apparently. And yes, it was for the benefit of those surviving, not the dead. Always has been and if we could keep that straight now, without all the usually hypocritical recitation of what a great guy Harry was, etc., it would probably work out better.

Not all funerals are or were reverent humbug. Some cultures have what amount almost to raucus Irish wakes (is that a redundancy?), a giant party where the deceased is partied over and his life celebrated rather than moaned about. I've left instructions for six kegs of beer and nothing but rock and roll played very loud at my funeral, but you'll all have to wait, I'm shooting to be the world's oldest man in about 50 more years.

--------

What our ancestors 150 years ago specifically were NOT so good talking in casual conversation about was sex. We've kind of flipped the emphasis. Not much about sex embarrasses most of us. Much about death makes a great many of us uncomfortable, and it's not an INTP thing, it's a societal thing.

(Got into this as a rambling byway explored during research on the American Civil War. Typical, yes?)
 
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