The dangers of saving face

[Cognisant]

The Chinese have an intense preoccupation with pretenses, with "saving face" and "keeping up with the Robinson's", hence the prevalence of wasteful vanity projects and astounding levels of corruption, things like fake fire hydrants which would have the people responsible hunted down like dogs in any Western country.

In the past I've speculated this is because China has gone from an entirely agrarian country to a mostly developed one practically overnight and they simply haven't learned how things are supposed to be done. The Western world has a long history of accidents and with each event measures were introduced to prevent them happening again, now we have the problem that it's difficult to even dig a hole without involving accountants, lawyers, engineers and a unionized workforce.
But that hole will be dug safely and it'll be dug right.

But I think it goes deeper than that, I think the very concept of "saving face" is deemed acceptable in Chinese culture and that perhaps being a successful conman is something to be admired rather than scorned.

I think every civilization should treat this notion of style before substance or fake it until you make it, as an existential threat every bit as real and dangerous as ruinous powers of WH40k. There ought to be propaganda against it, movies like Catch Me If You Can should be told from the perspective of the victims and the villain's downfall should be harsh and celebrated. There should be active efforts identify and mock pretentiousness, maybe even punish it, to ensure that integrity is upheld as a sacrosanct virtue of our culture.

In Western countries even the most corrupt politician wouldn't DARE install fake fire hydrants, imagine if it worked that way for other forms of corruption, if it's possible for the Chinese culture to be worse then ours what might a culture that's better than our own look like?

 

[Black Rose]

Honor and disrespect go hand in hand.

If you believe your worth is gained by being important to others then you have to get it by impressing them.

If you believe the worth is derived from personal principles you get it from being true to yourself regardless of others expectations.

Guilt and shame have similar such signs.

Guilt from breaking your personal code.

Shame from being put in front of others.

So true horror never meets humiliation.

But shame is what you do when you wish to get others against someone.

Guilt is what happens when you shame someone enough to feel bad about themselves and they just accept it.

both are mind control. So to feel no guilt a person must believe they have the right to humiliate others or to put it on others. Then the two are similar.

Shame makes you bad in front of others and guilt makes you feel bad about yourself. Which are the same thing.

because the oppression is high we try and get away with things. those things are to say others are bad and that we are good. it makes it so hypocracy is embarrassing.

once we come to view persons as hypocrites we cannot trust them.

and honor is about trust, in others and ourselves.

fake trust is what saving face is for. because admitting guilt is seen as having flaws and flaws are bad.

there is no way to redeem a flaw in some cultures but in others there is.

flaws are bad and that makes people hate people with flaws.

pointing them out reduces people to a mockery. thus death.

The West was made in the religion of flawed humans.

So we got people to believe flaws could be fixed. instead of destroyed.

Honor culture is about War. The powerful decide who is killed.

The acceptance of flaws is from the point of view that equality makes all humans flawed absolutely. And that makes any decision to destroy arbitrarily.

The powerful die the weak die. No one is safe from death.

Dominance is not the lead meaning of life.

But what is, is the ability to change.

Therefore we force people to change instead of destroy them.

Which leads to fear-based culture.

Fear God or fear man, it is no different.

But God knows everything and with man you can get away with things.

mind control is both of these.

instill fear of others to have no flaws or else.

Obey the group or God or else.

 

[scorpiomover]

The Chinese have an intense preoccupation with pretenses, with "saving face" and "keeping up with the Robinson's",

China has been a "face culture" for centuries, if not millennia.

In the past I've speculated this is because China has gone from an entirely agrarian country to a mostly developed one practically overnight and they simply haven't learned how things are supposed to be done. The Western world has a long history of accidents and with each event measures were introduced to prevent them happening again, now we have the problem that it's difficult to even dig a hole without involving accountants, lawyers, engineers and a unionized workforce.
But that hole will be dug safely and it'll be dug right.

That is how things used to be done in the West, between the 1850s and the 1970s.

I think every civilization should treat this notion of style before substance or fake it until you make it, as an existential threat every bit as real and dangerous as ruinous powers of WH40k.

Western media have been saying "fake it until you make it" in every film, TV series, and documentary that Westerners have watched, since the 1980s.

There ought to be propaganda against it, movies like Catch Me If You Can should be told from the perspective of the victims and the villain's downfall should be harsh and celebrated. There should be active efforts identify and mock pretentiousness, maybe even punish it, to ensure that integrity is upheld as a sacrosanct virtue of our culture.

Western media have been showing criminals as loveable and successful, in every film and TV series that Westerners have watched, since "Robin and the 7 Hoods" in 1964.

In Western countries even the most corrupt politician wouldn't DARE install fake fire hydrants, imagine if it worked that way for other forms of corruption, if it's possible for the Chinese culture to be worse then ours what might a culture that's better than our own look like?

One in which people say the opposite of "fake it till you make it", i.e. "keep improving until you make it".

1) Your friends and family are always encouraging you to achieve your goals by hard work and effort.
2) People give advice about how to achieve your dreams in a realistic and practical way.
3) Employers provide comprehensive on-the-job training.
4) Employers pay interns a salary they can live on.
5) Everyone has a "growth mindset".
6) Work reviews focus on "the skills the company should help you develop".
7) Everything is put through a high level of quality control. Failures indicate a need for training courses.
8) No-one is sacked for not being good enough. They are re-trained instead.
9) No-one is not hired for not being good enough. They are directed to training courses instead.
10) The government provides free training courses for everyone, in whatever they need to learn, paid for by taxes. Taxpayers are happy to pay for these training courses, because they want you to "improve till you make it".
11) The entire country is focussed on self-improvement, and helping everyone to "be all you can be".

 

[dr froyd]

yes if you look at US as the diametrical opposite, there's no shame in failing (especially if you fail big). This entrepreneurial mindset has been deeply embedded in US culture probably since its inception, although I don't know exactly why.

it's a similar story with the industrial revolution in europe – a scientific mindset where you make bold theories and reject the same theories if proven wrong, and engage in the process of trial and error as a method of making progress.

i agree with the idea that when you essentially import the industrialized model without having gone through the process of trial and error, you just want results, and don't cultivate a tolerance for being wrong, failing, etc.

and of course, that will work fine as long as the goal is to just copy and implement what is already invented and well-defined. Unfortunately, that strategy hits a dead end eventually

 

[sushi]

my perspective is that its more prevalent and common in japan than in china

having a thick skin is sometimes a virtue in china, its more an political manipulation that can go both ways in terms of culture.

if you are refering to political culture and unable to tolerate critcism and opposition, it depends on who is in charge.

 

[Black Rose]

fake fire hydrants

I think that saving face only happens when you have been exposed.

it is damage control, it is not the deceptive act in the first place

so if you are caught you make excuses,

corruption is just ignoring things that happen or faking certain documents.

but ordinarily, people are shifting a mistake away from themselves.

in china love 1,000 persons are executed each year.

you cannot "save face" if you are dead.

that is why it is about getting respect such that people still respect you no matter what happens.

saving face would be "The gov executed me because they are corrupt, please honor my funeral." But if no one attends and or you are a nobody, it has not worked.

That is why dishonorable and honorable deaths are so important to honor-based cultures. In China, everything the gov does should be seen as honorable or else society collapses. That is why it has the highest number of executions each year. All persons executed should be seen as dishonorable citizens. Stokes up morale and fear of doing corrupt things.