• OK, it's on.
  • Please note that many, many Email Addresses used for spam, are not accepted at registration. Select a respectable Free email.
  • Done now. Domine miserere nobis.

The Cult of Progress

fluffy

Pony Influencer
Local time
Yesterday 8:15 PM
Joined
Sep 21, 2024
Messages
531
---
People richer than Elon musk seems implausible.
If you think peoples wealth is measured by how much zeros they have on bank accounts think again.
I can have 5 dollars on back account and still be the richest guy in country.
Wealth can be spread around and its very hard to account for it.
Elon Musk is poor guy comparably to rich people.
Elon does not own that much.

Is that not more like power?

I know power exists but that not the same as being a trillionare.

That is to say, I can pretty much name people that have influenced trillions of dollars. But they don't own a trillion dollars.
 

Puffy

"Wtf even was that"
Local time
Today 3:15 AM
Joined
Nov 7, 2009
Messages
3,859
---
Location
Path with heart
So for example who are these trillionaires in question
I doubt they are visible.
I'm only interested in discussing evidence really.
That is cool.

For example, Musk is known to have $300 billion in wealth and a reasonable claim could be made for him trying to influence USA politics given his recent appointment in public office. Can you give me similar evidence of the people you're referring to?
There is plenty evidence. One needs to look for it.
That said I am not spoon feeding people evidence they aren't willing to accept.
There are obvious reasons for why this sort of stuff is not advertised and mainstream.

A lot of my social circle are hippies and new age enthusiasts as esotericism is one of my big life passions. I have plenty of people in my social circle into this kind of thing and I get documentaries and stuff shared with me all the time.

If someone can give me something credible, I'm happy to look into it. I've already given a lot of time to my friends on this and only want to give more time to reevaluating my position based on evidence I haven't seen before. It's not even that I necessarily believe you're wrong I'm just not interested in taking a strong stance on what is or isn't the trace of an invisible hand as by its nature it's a bit of a rabbithole.
 

fractalwalrus

What can we know?
Local time
Yesterday 8:15 PM
Joined
May 24, 2024
Messages
730
---
People richer than Elon musk seems implausible. I mean only 3 companies in the world have over a trillion dollars? And the CEOs don't own that money.
MMORPGs have level caps for a reason.
 

Hadoblado

think again losers
Local time
Today 12:45 PM
Joined
Mar 17, 2011
Messages
7,065
---
People richer than Elon musk seems implausible.
If you think peoples wealth is measured by how much zeros they have on bank accounts think again.
I can have 5 dollars on back account and still be the richest guy in country.
Wealth can be spread around and its very hard to account for it.
Elon Musk is poor guy comparably to rich people.
Elon does not own that much.

Is that not more like power?

I know power exists but that not the same as being a trillionare.

That is to say, I can pretty much name people that have influenced trillions of dollars. But they don't own a trillion dollars.

Yes it's kind of power, but also it's very literally money as well. For example, the Saud family could very well have trillions but it's spread out between members. Putin and other Russian oligarchs could also have greater wealth. These sorts of claims are hard to prove but IMO quite plausible. For Western billionaires flaunting your wealth attributes that success to the individual, but if your money is extracted from a corrupt regime or whatever else there is incentive to keep it quiet.
 

EndogenousRebel

Even a mean person is trying their best, right?
Local time
Yesterday 9:15 PM
Joined
Jun 13, 2019
Messages
2,252
---
Location
Narnia
People richer than Elon musk seems implausible.
If you think peoples wealth is measured by how much zeros they have on bank accounts think again.
I can have 5 dollars on back account and still be the richest guy in country.
Wealth can be spread around and its very hard to account for it.
Elon Musk is poor guy comparably to rich people.
Elon does not own that much.

Is that not more like power?

I know power exists but that not the same as being a trillionare.

That is to say, I can pretty much name people that have influenced trillions of dollars. But they don't own a trillion dollars.
Zen would refer to political agents like Putin.

Sure not the richest Forbes top tenner.

Though, at some point, an established beurocratic and economic infrastructure like a government economy is something you can't buy.

You have to build it. Sure build it with money, but try competing with governments that have been around for centuries.

Even if we consider deeds rights, of which America takes inspiration from feudal Spain, you don't have to put shit down on paper if your an autocrat dictator.

That is something unique to people like Putin.

I don't buy it though.

Putin carries a lot of liabilities being who he is. Putin is testing limits and setting the stage for there to be combat ready soldiers in the future.

Putin as he exists now has few options.

I guess if Putin was President you can give the whole hierarchy to Putin.

But besides people like him, the amount of people who singularly impact geopolitics is not that much.

Even if, ass pull, 1 in 1,000,000 people were like that (it's not) there would be like 8000/8,000,000,000

I can't picture it being more than that tbh.

At that point though, unless you're able to use Capital that is liquid, you can only do so much.

This notion of having things that money can't buy doesn't mean that you can always benefit from it.
 

ZenRaiden

One atom of me
Local time
Today 3:15 AM
Joined
Jul 27, 2013
Messages
5,262
---
Location
Between concrete walls
Is that not more like power?

I know power exists but that not the same as being a trillionare.

That is to say, I can pretty much name people that have influenced trillions of dollars. But they don't own a trillion dollars.
Banking, Oil, Pharma, Weapons manufacturing, fertilizer technology, computer tech etc. .....
All these people are way richer than the regular. They literally own the keys to civilization. We are entirely at their mercy.
 

ZenRaiden

One atom of me
Local time
Today 3:15 AM
Joined
Jul 27, 2013
Messages
5,262
---
Location
Between concrete walls
A lot of my social circle are hippies and new age enthusiasts as esotericism is one of my big life passions. I have plenty of people in my social circle into this kind of thing and I get documentaries and stuff shared with me all the time.

If someone can give me something credible, I'm happy to look into it. Otherwise I'm not so sure it's that I'm just stubbornly not being willing to accept. There's maybe an element of that but it's because I feel I've already given a lot of time to my friends on this and only want to give more time to reevaluating my position based on evidence I haven't seen before.
I get that. There is only 24 hours in a day. All I mean is that there is credible evidence, but its not something simple.
Why would lets say Larry Page go on Fox news and admit he tried to sway elections using YouTube algorithms. There is literally a scientist who proved that YouTube and google used ephemeral algorithms to take the elections from Trump. He testified before congress. Its been deemed enough evidence to be implemented in elections as preventive measure to make sure companies no longer have the capacity to tamper with elections. When google got called out, they took down those algorithms immediately down.
Is some rich guy going to admit he trampled the constitution and tried to swindle Trump out of votes, because he did not like him??? Probably not.
Yet there is evidence - scientific evidence.
See I get that you don't want to spend time with this shit, but there is plenty evidence, is not euphemism. I don't hold it against people not wanting to spend time with this.
Its a time sink. Hence why I bring it out so people look it up if they are inclined to do.
If you already have people bringing this up, theres probably reasons why people bring this stuff up. Not every conspiracy theory is true tho.

 

Puffy

"Wtf even was that"
Local time
Today 3:15 AM
Joined
Nov 7, 2009
Messages
3,859
---
Location
Path with heart
A lot of my social circle are hippies and new age enthusiasts as esotericism is one of my big life passions. I have plenty of people in my social circle into this kind of thing and I get documentaries and stuff shared with me all the time.

If someone can give me something credible, I'm happy to look into it. Otherwise I'm not so sure it's that I'm just stubbornly not being willing to accept. There's maybe an element of that but it's because I feel I've already given a lot of time to my friends on this and only want to give more time to reevaluating my position based on evidence I haven't seen before.
I get that. There is only 24 hours in a day. All I mean is that there is credible evidence, but its not something simple.
Why would lets say Larry Page go on Fox news and admit he tried to sway elections using YouTube algorithms. There is literally a scientist who proved that YouTube and google used ephemeral algorithms to take the elections from Trump. He testified before congress. Its been deemed enough evidence to be implemented in elections as preventive measure to make sure companies no longer have the capacity to tamper with elections. When google got called out, they took down those algorithms immediately down.
Is some rich guy going to admit he trampled the constitution and tried to swindle Trump out of votes, because he did not like him??? Probably not.
Yet there is evidence - scientific evidence.
See I get that you don't want to spend time with this shit, but there is plenty evidence, is not euphemism. I don't hold it against people not wanting to spend time with this.
Its a time sink. Hence why I bring it out so people look it up if they are inclined to do.
If you already have people bringing this up, theres probably reasons why people bring this stuff up. Not every conspiracy theory is true tho.


No, that's cool, that's the type of thing I'm happy to discuss. I'm not questioning that Larry Page did that. Though in this example Page isn't an unknown trillionaire. Supposedly he has half the wealth of Elon Musk. So if what Page did was an issue to you, I'm curious what you make of Elon Musk's recent endorsement of Trump and involvement in his election campaign and recent appointment in his government, given that he has twice the wealth of Larry Page?
 

fractalwalrus

What can we know?
Local time
Yesterday 8:15 PM
Joined
May 24, 2024
Messages
730
---
if you think about the contemporary "woke", social-justice movements, and things like communism - even in their brutal stalinist form - it's easy forget that these are values of the Enlightement taken to their extreme utopian conclusion.

but there is an inherent problem (which Alexei Yurchak calls "Lefort's Paradox") which is not very hard to spot; if the ultimate goal of Enlightment values is the absolute liberation of society and the individual, then its implementation - which requires an authority that subjugates its population to the project - must create an authority that is somehow above, or external to its own ideals.

the liberation of society and the individual, creation of "the New Man" was indeed the goal of even stalinist communism. Except the implementation meant that society and individual came under absolute authoritarian control.

this is similar to contemporary liberal movements; the goal is liberation, but the implementation means controlling speech, controlling language, censoring political viewpoints, "canceling" and destroying anyone who disagrees with them, passing vaguely defined hate-speech laws, forcefully injecting the ideology into every part of culture, etc etc

the parallels are quite conspicuous

The problem with this parallel to me is that of extremes similar to what I was trying to say to Cog. Stalinist Russia was f%$king brutal. Up to 9 million people died from starvation alone. In comparison what we're talking about here is debate around whether social media posts are being censored under the guise of hate speech laws. When people make comparisons like this it causes a part of my brain to stop taking it seriously as these things aren't in the same ballpark and makes me feel like over-exaggeration is happening.

While I don't think it's as clear-cut as Froyd says, it's a lot closer to some sort of middle ground than say, "progressivism is an economically illiterate deathcult who believe in original sinlessness suppressed only by capitalism".

Societies don't just flip to fascist overnight, there's a granular adjustment year over year until the original intention is no longer recognisable. Hitler didn't start with deathcamps, he started . People are right to be concerned when governments exercise unilateral control over speech, even if well-intentioned at first. While we don't experience it as particularly menacing, legislation becomes precedent and precedent informs future laws which may be written by people with nefarious intent.

My contention with this line of thinking is that the information environment has changed and demands regulation, even if it's also correct to be concerned about it. People can literally purchase and manipulate information environments which has the potential to essentially dictate (hyper)reality for populations. This isn't speculative or a slippery slope, it's happening right now.

Silencing the people can be holding their mouth shut, but it can also be shouting down the real signal with a false one, and this is trivially easy to do through algorithm manipulation and bot farms. The result is the same, disenfranchised or manipulated people beholden to the interests of the powerful.

I think we should absolutely be terrified of governments creating vague legislation allowing them to control speech. But leaving speech entirely unregulated in the age of botfarms, deepfakes, and algorithmic manipulation is even more certain to lead to dystopia. We need good, clear, bipartisan regulation not to censor the hard R or to preserve pronouns, but to stop the literal end of truth and history. There needs to be some mechanism in place to stop billionaires and governments from absolute power over narrative. The free market won't work for this one.
You know what would be cool? If no one gave a shit about the economy. How bout just sit around and play games or something? The human will to never be satiated is one gian pain in the ass.
 

Cognisant

cackling in the trenches
Local time
Yesterday 4:15 PM
Joined
Dec 12, 2009
Messages
11,155
---
Klaus Schwab would love that, move along everybody, nothing to see here.
 

fractalwalrus

What can we know?
Local time
Yesterday 8:15 PM
Joined
May 24, 2024
Messages
730
---
Klaus Schwab would love that, move along everybody, nothing to see here.
No he wouldn't. All Germans seem to be able to think about is money (look at their GPD). Those fools can't even remember what it is like to be human (you know, acknowledge emotion). We're all numbers and charts to those heartless Peter Thiels (German) of the world. Show me a Norse piece of art or literature that acknowledges the individual as valuable for anything other than their ability to produce. #cuckedculture
 

Cognisant

cackling in the trenches
Local time
Yesterday 4:15 PM
Joined
Dec 12, 2009
Messages
11,155
---
westernfront.jpg
 

fractalwalrus

What can we know?
Local time
Yesterday 8:15 PM
Joined
May 24, 2024
Messages
730
---
Sure it was.
Lol, I'm not always a perfect logician, but it would be heavily fallacious to assume that not one German has ever produced art. I found it, amusing, for a brief moment, to turn the Nazi talking points against the folks that did an inadequate job of opposing them. Also, alcohol was involved.
 
Top Bottom