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The Criminal Mind

Synchro

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Having spent a year working as a doctor in a prison, I can assure anyone who cares to know that there are indeed people with criminal minds who are quite beyond any possible rehabilitation; they decided - or were predestined - to be criminals from at least teenage-hood, and they do not deviate from being a criminal for the rest of their lives.

Most are the common petty thief variety, most certainly got into hard drugs either as a cause or result...probably more result, but few of them would hesitate to harm or murder if the need arose.

Now, these weren't all the prisoners - there were the usual mix of schizophrenics stuck in prison instead of a mental institution where they belong, and schmucks - small time drug dealers - set up by cops, and so on - but there was a large and well-defined population who were, without any question in my mind, obdurately of the criminal mind persuasion, and nothing was ever going to change that.

At the six month mark I read a book, The Criminal Mind, by Stanton E. Samenow, PhD, a psychologist who spent years attempting to figure out how to rehabilitate career criminals with limited success, and it certainly opened my eyes and ripped away any illusions I might have still been holding onto.

These criminal minded prisoners were not hard to identify: they were manipulative, cunning, extremely deceptive, hard to pin down, and potentially violent...and there was a certain "air" to them I can't define, but when you see it, it's there, no question about it...I suppose a false portrayal of seeming to want to be your friend kind of sums it up.

In any case, I have read nothing in MBTI that talks about the career criminal - the criminal minded - and I wonder if anyone here has insight into whether the criminal minded tends to be a certain MBTI type, or whether these criminally minded people are actually an aberration, outside the bounds of MBTI typing...

Because it seems to me there's a bias built into the MBTI: that humans are both rational and caring fundamentally in all types.

I'm not at all sure this is true, and if it is, then the criminal mind exists outside MBTI.

Input?
 

EyeSeeCold

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A crime is an arbitrary abstract standard, so there is no such thing as being "criminally minded". As such, no type is predisposed to be a criminal - at least not directly.

There are types plugged into society, that comply. And then there are those who have a will and are more focused on individuality.
 

Minuend

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Only slightly related, but if an individual is an incurable criminal, would it be accepting to put hir down?
 

Synchro

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EyeSeeCold posted: A crime is an arbitrary abstract standard, so there is no such thing as being "criminally minded". As such, no type is predisposed to be a criminal - at least not directly.
Ah, relativism in it's most naked form. Trust me, if you had known these prisoners, or been their victims, you would not take such an "enlightened" view, my friend.

You'd run like hell, there would be no doubt in your mind at all that the truly criminal mind exists, and you'd forget relativism in a hurry.

There are crimes, and there are crimes. Past a certain line...which I admit is essentially arbitrary and theoretical...but well past that line, you would have no doubt.

Yes, you can continue to argue that it is still relative, but it is a nonsensical argument; it is rather like a curve that plateaus - or rises, take your pick - to infinity; past a certain point, there is no practical point in maintaining that it is still a curve, if you wish to actually achieve anything based on that curve.

How would you like it if you were imprisoned for a very petty offense, and when your fellow prisoners made the mistake of thinking you a sex offender due to a similarity in names, they grabbed you, held you down, and then one of them grabs your head and smashes you, face first, into the concrete floor until you are brain-dead (but still breathing)? This is just one of the murdered prisoners I choppered out. Experiences like that tend to give one a more realistic view of the criminally minded, trust me on this.

Minuend posted: Only slightly related, but if an individual is an incurable criminal, would it be accepting to put hir down?
Minuend, you bring up an extremely important concept. Because we do not have a foolproof method of convicting to perfection - death rows are filled with innocent people, even though they might only be innocent of THE particular crime they have been convicted of - we cannot contemplate execution as a viable method.

However, your question goes beyond that - because sooner or later we must, as a society and culture, figure out what to do about these criminally minded people; these people who have chosen - or been predestined - to a life of crime; the toll on us is tremendous; the cost to our lives and our economy is simply enormous.

I personally believe we must come to grips with the reality of having to figure out how to reliably identify these individuals as early on as possible, and then find nonharmful ways to effectively intervene.

There is a neurological basis for some of the criminally minded - they lack the brain center with a conscience. I know we can identify these people, and can probably identify them as early as three years of age. What to do about them I do not know, but sooner or later, we have to grapple with this problem.

It may be that the criminally minded - which includes pedophiles that rape and murder children, by the way - exist within all MBTI types - this seems likely to me. But it is by no means inconceivable that the criminally minded might fall into certain types more frequently than others, or it is also conceivable that the truly criminally minded simply fall outside the MBTI - since, as I said before, I suspect the MBTI was formulated based on an erroneous assumption that all humans, to some degree, are ethical and caring...or that being ethical and caring is irrelevent - I don't know which assumption was made, but it does matter, and the MBTI is a sadly ineffective instrument if it does not account for the criminally minded, especially those wholly lacking in conscience or those, such as incurable pedophiles, who cannot keep themselves from raping and murdering children, despite remorse.
 

EyeSeeCold

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Ah, relativism in it's most naked form. Trust me, if you had known these prisoners, or been their victims, you would not take such an "enlightened" view, my friend.

You'd run like hell, there would be no doubt in your mind at all that the truly criminal mind exists, and you'd forget relativism in a hurry.

There are crimes, and there are crimes. Past a certain line...which I admit is essentially arbitrary and theoretical...but well past that line, you would have no doubt.

Yes, you can continue to argue that it is still relative, but it is a nonsensical argument; it is rather like a curve that plateaus - or rises, take your pick - to infinity; past a certain point, there is no practical point in maintaining that it is still a curve, if you wish to actually achieve anything based on that curve.

How would you like it if you were imprisoned for a very petty offense, and when your fellow prisoners made the mistake of thinking you a sex offender due to a similarity in names, they grabbed you, held you down, and then one of them grabs your head and smashes you, face first, into the concrete floor until you are brain-dead (but still breathing)? This is just one of the murdered prisoners I choppered out. Experiences like that tend to give one a more realistic view of the criminally minded, trust me on this.

I'm not arguing relativism...this thread is committing a logical fallacy of reification. A crime is an arbitrary abstract concept. So you cannot say people are criminally minded, unless they actually break laws for the pure sake of breaking laws.
 

gruesomebrat

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Having spent a year working as a doctor in a prison, I can assure anyone who cares to know that there are indeed people with criminal minds who are quite beyond any possible rehabilitation; they decided - or were predestined - to be criminals from at least teenage-hood, and they do not deviate from being a criminal for the rest of their lives.

Most are the common petty thief variety, most certainly got into hard drugs either as a cause or result...probably more result, but few of them would hesitate to harm or murder if the need arose.

Now, these weren't all the prisoners - there were the usual mix of schizophrenics stuck in prison instead of a mental institution where they belong, and schmucks - small time drug dealers - set up by cops, and so on - but there was a large and well-defined population who were, without any question in my mind, obdurately of the criminal mind persuasion, and nothing was ever going to change that.

At the six month mark I read a book, The Criminal Mind, by Stanton E. Samenow, PhD, a psychologist who spent years attempting to figure out how to rehabilitate career criminals with limited success, and it certainly opened my eyes and ripped away any illusions I might have still been holding onto.

These criminal minded prisoners were not hard to identify: they were manipulative, cunning, extremely deceptive, hard to pin down, and potentially violent...and there was a certain "air" to them I can't define, but when you see it, it's there, no question about it...I suppose a false portrayal of seeming to want to be your friend kind of sums it up.

In any case, I have read nothing in MBTI that talks about the career criminal - the criminal minded - and I wonder if anyone here has insight into whether the criminal minded tends to be a certain MBTI type, or whether these criminally minded people are actually an aberration, outside the bounds of MBTI typing...

Because it seems to me there's a bias built into the MBTI: that humans are both rational and caring fundamentally in all types.

I'm not at all sure this is true, and if it is, then the criminal mind exists outside MBTI.

Input?
I've been in and out of the orange jumpsuits for the past 5 years, and I don't think I've ever seen anything like what you're describing. To be more clear, there are career criminals, as well as criminals who live on the "installment plan", who you will see over and over again in the system, but I don't think you can tell just by looking at these criminals that they are going to re-offend. When you say that you can "identify these people, and can probably identify them as early as three years of age", I respectfully disagree. I think most of the people who are on the installment plan are simply there because their life fell apart and they don't know how to deal with the world anymore, if they ever did, and most of the 'career criminals' you mentioned are simply patsies for the actual career criminals.

Let's face it. The only way to make a career out of crime is to avoid the prison system like the plague it is. If these career criminals are constantly in and out, they're not making much of a career of it, are they?

As far as your definition of the 'criminally minded', that they are manipulative, cunning, extremely deceptive, hard to pin down, and potentially violent, it sounds to me like you're describing humanity as a whole. Everyone has the ability to become a criminal, and everyone exhibits the same characteristics that you just attributed to criminals.

The only reason that these characteristics show themselves so prominently in the prison system is because each prison is a miniature, self contained society. Just like the 'regular' society outside of those four walls, prisoners have a set of rules that must be followed (laws), and there is appropriate punishment for infractions, generally decided upon by a council of peers (justice system). I have yet to enter a prison that didn't have a well-established trade economy in it, and the guards and other staff are simply the equivalent of the federal government. They provide the necessary goods and services, and if you want more and can afford more, the economy will provide you with it.

Take a serious look around you next time you're out and about, and try telling me that you don't see the same characteristics in the 'real' world.
 

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gruesomebrat posted: I've been in and out of the orange jumpsuits for the past 5 years, and I don't think I've ever seen anything like what you're describing.

I could argue that perhaps you weren't in a sufficiently high enough security prison, but I won't...because all of your points are well taken and I'm not at all certain that you're wrong.

For example, we like to think that each of us "law abiding" citizens is not a criminal, and never would be...but, pushed far enough, perhaps we would be - times of hardship have certainly shown that.

Another example would be my own experience with my ex. She did amazing harm to me, just appalling, but to this day I do not think she is criminally minded...thoughtless, careless, self-deceived, unbelievably selfish - but puposefully cruel? No.

And yet...I still cannot accept the idea that all crime is relative. For me, there are boundaries, and past those boundaries I cannot forgive or forget - take your pick, because I cannot conceive of allowing, if I have a choice, that perpetrator from doing such harm again.
 

SpaceYeti

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Crime is relative? You're either capable of getting along with other humans in society without causing harm or you're not. A criminal mind is one where you're not able to get along in society without causing harm. It's pretty simple. And, sure, the harm may be relatively valued, but it's objectively harm. Broken bones, torn flesh, living or dead, it's all objective. How much society cares is relative, but it must care at least a little if it's going to remain a society.
 

Cognisant

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Synchro said:
There is a neurological basis for some of the criminally minded - they lack the brain center with a conscience. I know we can identify these people, and can probably identify them as early as three years of age.
We're all born sociopaths, we then develop theory of mind and a concept of self, the combination of which give us basic empathy, hey presto the begging of a conscience.

To say someone lacks "the brain centre with a conscience" is to say (I assume because I'm not entirely sure that makes sense) that they either lack the ability to perceive themself in a conceptual sense or they're so hopelessly retarded that they cannot even differentiate between themselves and others.

The horrible truth of it is that each and every one of us is capable of committing visceral homicide, that fundamentally those "monsters" and us are exactly the same type of thing, the only difference is that their life experience has led them to having a different perspective.

Or maybe it's just me, maybe I'm just a lazy sociopath? ;)
 

socialexpat

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Only slightly related, but if an individual is an incurable criminal, would it be accepting to put hir down?

That already happens .. In extreme cases, they do it to themselves often by an external factor if not they are put down for good by opposing criminals for some reason.
That makes it thus far a yes.
 

crippli

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How would you like it if you were imprisoned for a very petty offense, and when your fellow prisoners made the mistake of thinking you a sex offender due to a similarity in names, they grabbed you, held you down, and then one of them grabs your head and smashes you, face first, into the concrete floor until you are brain-dead (but still breathing)? This is just one of the murdered prisoners I choppered out. Experiences like that tend to give one a more realistic view of the criminally minded, trust me on this.
Another scenario as I am not sure who is doing what here. If you put a child in a cage full of alligators. Would that make you criminally minded or would that be the alligators?

You don't think the prison guards(the opposing force) are part of the criminally minded as you call it?
 

EyeSeeCold

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That already happens .. In extreme cases, they do it to themselves often by an external factor if not they are put down for good by opposing criminals for some reason.
That makes it thus far a yes.

:mad:!!!!

A "criminal mind" does not exist. A criminal once is not always a criminal twice.
Remove the cause / ability to commit the crime = crime cannot be committed.

If relocation is possible, death is not justified(in my opinion, death is never justified).
 

GYX_Kid

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they were manipulative, cunning, extremely deceptive, hard to pin down, and potentially violent...and there was a certain "air" to them I can't define, but when you see it, it's there, no question about it...I suppose a false portrayal of seeming to want to be your friend kind of sums it up.

ENFJ
 

pjoa09

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I refuse to accept that there is such thing as "Criminal Minded".

We have plenty of deceitful and violent people.

I believe that a Criminal is someone who's reaction has exceeded the expectations of the society.

For example, someone is in need of money and they need money.

Reaction that is accepted by Society:
Beg or ask for Welfare. (This is expected)

Reaction that is not accepted by Society:
Steals and kills people. (This is unexpected)

What is being characterized as Criminally Minded is someone who reacts unexpectedly and repeatedly.

For example, the need for excitement.

Reaction that is accepted by society:
Go and play basketball, bungee jump.

Reaction that is no accepted by society:
Drives very fast and recklessly.
Bludgeons someone to death.


I believe that everything is a reaction to another reaction that starts all the way to the Big Bang. Everyone reacts to certain stimulations or lack of stimulations differently. Some just react exceedingly.
 

EyeSeeCold

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Solitaire U.

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I suppose a false portrayal of seeming to want to be your friend kind of sums it up.

Coming from a prison doctor as resolutely presumptuous in their views as you appear to be, it's difficult to not read that as self-caricature. Examining rap sheets is a far cry from tending to the sick and injured...perhaps a Parole Board position would be a better fit.

Lack of conscience, lack of empathy...six of one half a dozen of the other. Alternate point of departure: The most concise definition of 'criminal mind' is undoubtedly the mind with the greatest determination to concisely define the criminal.
 

socialexpat

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:mad:!!!!

A "criminal mind" does not exist. A criminal once is not always a criminal twice.
Remove the cause / ability to commit the crime = crime cannot be committed.

If relocation is possible, death is not justified(in my opinion, death is never justified).

True, if you remove the cause .. Unfortunately we don't live in a world where causes are removed since the first day.
Look at how criminals in prison find simple ways to make the worst instruments of death ... Shanks are a simple example to begin with.
There are psychopaths for example, who are born that way .. And whatever you learn them it is not going to stop them from doing what they deem normal in their world.
There are few tests to figure out if someone has those tendencies .. They have been doing research for it between normal people and psychopathic people since years, Dr. Stone has been working on that too.
Those tests are very simple and proved enough.
If you want to take out the cause in society these days, they may already begin with putting born psychopaths in isolation cells.
 

Da Blob

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Well, there is this, Samenow's thinking errors

http://www.intpforum.com/showthread.php?t=7973

I worked in prisons for a couple of years as a counselor/psychological clinician. Interestingly enough I administered the MBTI and 75-80% of those who took the test were ISTJ, with most of the rest being ESTJ. I would have thought that it would be ISFJ or ESFJ - but I guess crimes of passion do not lead one to become a habitual criminal.
I actually had some success with rehabilitation of the convicts in my care. For the ones that were sane (a seeming minority) I showed them how to change their Belief Systems (Re: Criminal Belief Systems, Walters)

http://books.google.com/books?id=de...&resnum=1&ved=0CBkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

25-30% of the meth addicts were suffering from ADD and had used Meth to self medicate, only a few of those were ever diagnosed with ADHD as children (?). There were an amazing number of geniuses incarcerated - they just went weird and antisocial at a young age, there being no place for them in a public school system. However, there were quite a few there that were simply suffering from treatable mental disorders, whose disorders dictated their criminal behavior...

However, they all had developed a "Prison Mindset" as a result of the environmental conditioning (in the classical sense) that exists "Behind the Fence" and few realized it and so carried it with them at their release. I suggested to them that they would always be in prison no matter where in the world they were - unless they learned to escape from the prison they had unwittingly built for themselves, within their own minds...
 

gruesomebrat

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There were an amazing number of geniuses incarcerated - they just went weird and antisocial at a young age, there being no place for them in a public school system. However, there were quite a few there that were simply suffering from treatable mental disorders, whose disorders dictated their criminal behavior...

However, they all had developed a "Prison Mindset" as a result of the environmental conditioning (in the classical sense) that exists "Behind the Fence" and few realized it and so carried it with them at their release. I suggested to them that they would always be in prison no matter where in the world they were - unless they learned to escape from the prison they had unwittingly built for themselves, within their own minds...
It's nice to know that I'm not the only one who's seen the incredible amount of intelligence behind bars. It seems most people on this side of the fence don't want to think about the fact that we have locked up some incredibly great minds. On the other hand, it really shouldn't be a surprise, considering that besides eating and sleeping, there's not a lot of opportunity to do much other than think, when you're behind bars.

I'm curious, though. What's this prison mindset that you're referring to? I know that a lot of ex-cons definitely have trouble re-adjusting to life on the outside, but I've never really understood people's references to a mindset leading to that phenomenon...
 

Da Blob

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It's nice to know that I'm not the only one who's seen the incredible amount of intelligence behind bars. It seems most people on this side of the fence don't want to think about the fact that we have locked up some incredibly great minds. On the other hand, it really shouldn't be a surprise, considering that besides eating and sleeping, there's not a lot of opportunity to do much other than think, when you're behind bars.

I'm curious, though. What's this prison mindset that you're referring to? I know that a lot of ex-cons definitely have trouble re-adjusting to life on the outside, but I've never really understood people's references to a mindset leading to that phenomenon...

It really has to do a lot with identity, both personal and social identities. as I use to tell my clients, i knew I had escaped, when I started seeing Cops and law enforcement as being on my side instead of being potential enemies. Again most people do not know that prisons are really run by a council of tribes of the different ethic groups of convicts and that even the Aryan Brotherhood is united with the Bloods and Crypts in opposing the authority of Staff. An enforced Convict's Code, keeps Staff at a distance and allows for boundaries to be formed and territories claimed that really is able to keep the peace between groups in close confines, that in some cases really, really Hates the members of another group.
This basic Us versus Them orientation/attitude (Convicts versus Staff) is carried onto the streets after release, with the detested Staff being anyone who works for the government. It is a major component of a Prison Mindset. I use to tell my group that was really a stupid thing to do if one wanted to stay out of prison, to voluntarily become affiliated with a group of losers, that most likely would spend a great deal of time back behind the fence. Of course, they objected at the idea of being classified as losers, but I said "Get real, look where you live now, and look at where you will live after release - if you don't break the pattern."

I suggested that the best way to break the pattern to to break their mirrors, that formation of a new self-image, in a new type of mirror, could lead to a new belief in one's Self and One's abilities to make it in the "real' world. I told them I was that new mirror... Those that chose to believe me ( the suggestible), eventually began to believe in their own selves and began to develop positive character traits to add to their repertoire of Street Smarts...

I do not know though, I never seemed to be able to get any of the geniuses to convert. I always supposed that they were so locked into their ASD (anti-social disorder) that they found a way to discount everything I said via Freudian Defense Mechanisms. Speaking of which one of the facets of the Prison Mindset is to view all change as Threat and I suppose in some cases, to change one's Self for the better was seen as a threat of some kind (?)
 

Solitaire U.

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@ Da Blob...

You know it's interesting...you and I apparently follow several of the same threads and I've now seen you claim credentialed expertise in a number of areas...psychology seems to be your preference but I noticed just yesterday that you are also a 'scientist' (of unspecified type).

It's not that I doubt you are any of those things. Ironically, it is your apparent lack of competent understanding of the people you are dealing with expressed in this thread that convinces me your claims are most likely true, which, FWIW is more than I can say for the good 'doctor' who started this thread.

But there is a world of difference between the two. I would let a man who has never had cancer carve one out of me simply if I was reasonably convinced he'd had sufficient training and practice in wielding a scalpel. But for a man to judge and council me on the success and failure of my actions past present and future, he would have to first earn my serious consideration by fostering some degree of impression that he has walked in my shoes, or at least shoes roughly comparable. His official licenses, permits and certifications would however mean nothing to me, and I would consider his decision to conspicuously display them as lush adornments or brandish them as cudgels to prove his own points to itself be highly suggestive of incompetence.

This is psychology's great flaw and I'm speaking directly of the practitioner's aspect. The flaws in it's archives of academic knowledge are acute as well, but an entirely different issue.

You sir, in your expressions above, epitomize those flaws. Some corrections, points to consider, and links to a potentially more enlightening archive of information on this thread's topic...

First and foremost...a prison councilor is from the gate a contradiction because contemporary prisons are not rehabilitative or therapeutic environments. A cursory glance at the structural details of such a facility will (or should) clearly convey the intent and purpose.

The most glaringly obvious misconception both you and the good doctor make is that you are automatically expectant and deserving of respect and consideration simply because you reside somewhere behind the screws in (in your case at least) street attire. This makes the Doctor's totalitarian ramblings less ultimately destructive because in practice he is merely a technician...a sort of human branch of the facility's maintenance department. More problematic in your case because you have direct contact under the guise of 'assisting'...

But what you both fail to understand is that in a convicts eyes you are just another Screw, and one potentially less deserving of acknowledgment than the CO's due to the assumed cowardice of your lack of visible presence on the ward itself. Being escorted through a series of locked-down corridors to your office automatically defines you as another authoritarian. The perpetual state of conflict between the convicts and Screws should be enough to dash your expectations of sincerity from your clients.

Having yourself escorted into the ward to council your clients where they 'live', even a single time, would have been a monumental gesture equating to respect and consideration in your clients' eyes. But even if you had the will, the system would never permit you to do this. That you might actually foster a sense of self-worth in these convicts would be in direct conflict with how the Boss prefers things to be run. Consult the link below for an explanation of why that is.

What then do you suppose was your purpose? To lead the dregs to a more fulfilling existence via subservient relationships with authority? You implied this is what worked for you, but it seems a tad misleading coming from someone who likes to portray himself as an authority on as many issues as you apparently are, don't you think?

Seems more like your position was itself an empty gesture made strictly to pander to some romanticized ideal of humane imprisonment, or comply with a legislated regulation originating thus, more precisely. That you were bound to fail to reach them as you confessed must be depressing humiliating for you, assuming your salary wasn't high enough to overcome it.

The humorous implications of administering MBTI tests to a control group that lives in a society that defines personal will as a punishable offense notwithstanding, it's quite interesting that your result of an 80% hit ratio on ISTJ "with most of the rest being ESTJ" (a ratio that would be so improbable with a randomly dispersed control group as to be absurd, I might add), is so highly correlative to what anyone familiar with MBTI theory would predict you'd come up with had you tested the CO's rather than the inmates. It would seem then, that you managed to assess the personality type of the facility and all the principles it is built upon. That should have been enough to convince you who the Boss is, how the Society functions, and what the process of forcing people through it at the tip of a taser gun is most likely to result in. But you apparently missed all these indicators...not surprising, given your ISFJ/ESFJ expectations. I wouldn't expect feelers to be in positive alignment with things like administering solitary confinement, or surviving the experience for that matter. There would appear to be some possibly biased discrepancies in your MBTI rationale...

At any rate, I imagine indoctrinating convicts to the most extreme aspects of I/ESTJ protocol is churning out some exceptionally gifted criminals. Not that my ninth grade level of academic infusion is certified to guess...

I had more points, but I've already exceed respectable word-count limits and want to alienate as few potential readers as possible. Hence, I'll cut it short and make my parting shot...Your ideas about how prisons function and who runs them are all incorrect, and even the convicts themselves acknowledge this. Further reading, for both yourself and your Orwellian-obsessed constituent OP. I'd encourage gruesomebrat to weigh in on the authenticity of the author's expressions...

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=136858
 

Lobstrich

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I refuse to accept that there is such thing as "Criminal Minded".

We have plenty of deceitful and violent people.

I believe that a Criminal is someone who's reaction has exceeded the expectations of the society.

For example, someone is in need of money and they need money.

Reaction that is accepted by Society:
Beg or ask for Welfare. (This is expected)

Reaction that is not accepted by Society:
Steals and kills people. (This is unexpected)

What is being characterized as Criminally Minded is someone who reacts unexpectedly and repeatedly.

For example, the need for excitement.

Reaction that is accepted by society:
Go and play basketball, bungee jump.

Reaction that is no accepted by society:
Drives very fast and recklessly.
Bludgeons someone to death.


I believe that everything is a reaction to another reaction that starts all the way to the Big Bang. Everyone reacts to certain stimulations or lack of stimulations differently. Some just react exceedingly.

I'm very much with you on this one. It also applies to drugs. The socially accepted drugs are alchohol and smokes. But as soon as you want something more then you're a loser.

But even though I agree with you. I can't see to think "What would the alternative be?" That people who feel like driving recklessly kill people every day, and then when he goes home and finds his fridge empty he leaves his house and kills 27 people, 27 because he decided he's too tired of walking, he wants a car. Next day he wants a bigger car and a bigger house and kills 84 people. And so it continues.
 

Da Blob

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@ Solitaire U

Now here you go disrespecting me, That is against the code. I earned the respect of my clients - so many of them listened to me. , but the Boss pretty much hated me and got me fired for making an "inappropriate remark" after 18 months. Odd because, I had been making 'inappropriate remarks" since day one OTJ... lol


Actually, I agree with the general theme of what you suggest and if you will check out the Rehab thread, there is a similar sentiment expressed by me. The most efficient drug counselors are former addicts with street credentials, not some academic nerd who has never awakened covered in his or her own vomit and/or blood, but has wonderful credentials in the eyes of academics to counsel addicts, because of a BA in the behavioral sciences and the ability to pass a single multiple choice test for certification and a license as a counselor.

As far as Psychology and its actual value, my opinion, is that it has no value as a science and neither does sociology. There really can't be such a thing as a "Soft Science" or soft scientists. Both schools do have value as Humanities, as offshoots of the Philosophy department. However, scientists generally get more funding from the government than philosophers - so the pretense of psychology being a soft science will be maintained for financial gain, if for no other reason...

The problem is, of course , is that research scientists and clinical psychologists, rarely if ever, are good counselors, in fact most of them do not even graduate beyond being 2nd rate instructors for college students... This not necessarily the case for those few who maintain that psychology is a type of philosophy.

Obviously, some mental disorders do have organic foundations that can be addressed by science via medications. However, many mental problems/mental imbalances are simply caused by inadequate belief systems, and other phenomena in the realm of Philosophy such as Self. I would just respect my clients as lay philosophers and we discussed the reasons why their personal philosophies did not seem to be working for them etc.
I shared with them such things as Pedagogy of the Oppressed etc.

That approach worked quite well for some, certainly better than some 'scientific approach' that treats clients as subjects in an experiment...
 

Solitaire U.

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Consider yourself pardoned on the first count. :)

Now about those Typology discrepancies...

Don't get the wrong impression about my interest, which is not to disrespect you (per se). I simply haven't ruled out the possibility that I may also end up in prison one day, and a little advanced preparation never hurts...
 

Da Blob

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Consider yourself pardoned on the first count. :)

Now about those Typology discrepancies...

Don't get the wrong impression about my interest, which is not to disrespect you (per se). I simply haven't ruled out the possibility that I may also end up in prison one day, and a little advanced preparation never hurts...

My reasons for administering the MBTI really had nothing to do with personality, but rather my ongoing goal to get my clients to redefine their own selves and set new boundaries/expectations for Self. Most found the results of the test to be uplifting (due to the wording of the results) and they really had no clue about what the MBTI was all about. (lol.. for a few, that was the first test that they had ever 'passed')
 

gruesomebrat

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To avoid the problem of running too long a reply, there will be some points which I simply colour green or red. Those in green are ones that I agree with, but don't feel the need to expand on. Red statements are those that I disagree with. I may or may not expand on those points.

Every prison and county jail is different.
Above all else that the author has posted, this statement has to be kept in the back of your mind. The experiences of one ex-convict will never necessarily fully mesh with those of another. Serving time in two different prisons and comparing experiences is like an Yankee and a Canuck comparing their lives. There will be some glaring differences, but enough similarities that the average person can't tell the difference.

I was in a level 5 facility, (they call in V inside because the State uses roman numerals and you don't find a lot of convicts know what roman numerals are. I Romans for that matter. ) - but it was part of a privately run string of prisons, each with anywhere between a few hundred and a few thousands convicts. To manage the population as it swells and declines seasonaly (convict rates drop through winter. no shit. no one wants to commit a crime when it's cold) people get cycled in and out, so there is really no time for re-offending programs, or programs to prevent drug abuse or any of that.
I was in a slightly lower-security prison than this author. It would be equivalent to a level 4 facility, rather than the level 5 that the author spent his 2-year stint. I'm not sure if it's just that the prison he spent his time in sees a drop in convict rates through winter, but I know that we would see a slight increase in our already overflowing population in the coldest months. This increase was often primarily homeless people who had deliberately done something illegal, solely for the purpose of getting a place to sleep and 3 square meals a day.

1. Getting Out

On my last day I started writing this list in my head, and thought it would be funny to post it on the Chans. But really, now I've written it, it's not funny . . . Instead of rape, the thing that tops my list was getting out. After 18 months, I felt like I had the whole prison kick down. I felt like I belonged. New guys looked up to me, like someone who'd seen shit and made it through. As I scaled back on my pretty huge habit, I started to get this kind of zen calm about incarceration, and I liked to think I helped a few guys through their first weeks.
Once you've reached that sense of belonging, the knowledge that you are going to have to leave is one of the worst feelings in the world. I can't think of anything that even compares to that feeling. I suppose the closest thing that I've come across was finding myself estranged from my family. That feeling of being set adrift, with no solid ground to anchor to.
The real problem is that about halfway through your sentence, you stop caring so much about the outside world. The world inside the four walls of the prison become your new reality, and when the time comes to leave, the anxiety is on par with what the Pilgrims must have felt before they left on the Mayflower. You're going into an entirely new world, and you're not entirely sure what to expect there.


Two years is a long time. The world literally changes without you. I got off the bus and went to my favourite bar. It was empty. I went to a cafe my friends used to touch dicks at. None of them were there.
He mentions at one point that it's like you've traveled in time. Technology has advanced without you, friends have moved on, and yet you haven't changed. You and your life are the same as when you went in, but the world has moved on and left you behind. When this combines with the anxiety you had felt before leaving, it becomes a force that is difficult to reckon with.


Thing about prison, is that sleep becomes like a chore you do each day. You're never really tired, so you never really want to sleep, it just breaks up the time. I felt like I didn't want to sleep ever again. Next morning I decided to go for a drive, and thought I'd rent a car - but my driver's licence had expired. I went to get a new one, but because I'd been inside they needed me to get a letter from my parole officer. So I just wandered around for a day. Felt like everyone was staring at me.

You just feel completely lost.
Like him, sleep became a way to break up the time. By the time I left, I was up to 15-18 hours of sleep per day. It was the easiest and fastest way to get through my time. When you get out of that fenced compound, though, the excitement of seeing a new world again, sleep gets relegated to the back of your mind for at least a couple of weeks. The only time I slept in the month after I got out was when I literally passed out from exhaustion. Since my release in September, my sleep patterns have gotten a little bit better, but not too much.

A funny thing about lockdowns - you know how the day before a public holiday people will go crazy and hit all the stores to stock up on food? It's like that inside. The reason the boss' always leaks a lock down is so we buy as much candy as we possibly can, as many smokes, and as much gear as we can cram up our assholes and go quietly back to our cells. That particular lockdown ended up being 72 hours. As far as prison experiences go, they're the most interesting. It's kind of like going on a camp out. You often get guys 'hot racking', where they'll swap cell mates with their bros, or just apedophile groupon cells completely and move their bedding over to hold little sleep overs where they play cards and talk shit. Strangely enough, as bad as a lock down sounds, they really brought blocks together in mutual hatred, and broke up the monotony. I often wondered if the screws didn't just throw them at random to keep us interested.
Perhaps in level 5 "supermax" prisons, the guards allow unauthorized cell changes, but I know where I was, you had to go through a lengthy request process in order to change cells, and any inmate found to be in a cell that wasn't theirs were reprimanded severely for it. Before you say that a reprimand doesn't seem to be that bad a punishment for being in the wrong cell, keep in mind that, inside, a reprimand can mean anything from a day to a week in solitary, a citation in your file (which can prevent you from getting early release for good behaviour), or being pulled off the range and transferred to another. Reprimands are not to be taken lightly, and the jail I was in did not deal lightly with infractions of the few institution-wide rules that were in place. Trading cellmates for a meal lock-up was generally acceptable, but overnight and during lockdown, if you weren't in your own cell, you were in the hole.
The belief that the screws throw random lockdowns just to make things interested is relatively widespread in the prisons, and is supported by communication between the different units. We were set up in such a way that each unit was separate, as was each range, but the unit cleaners were often able to talk at some point during the day, as well as having a relatively good rapport with the screws, which allowed them to give their range a heads-up when a legitimate lockdown was in the works. Occasionally, though, there were lockdowns that caught everyone by surprise, and it was generally assumed that these were thought up by the screws as a form of entertainment. It gave them an excuse to come onto the ranges and do inspections, including strip-searches, and that meant they didn't have to sit in their pods doing paperwork.

All in all, Solitaire, from what I've read, this post seems to have been made by an authentic convict. The experiences and culture that he describes, and the myths he debunks definitely indicate some sort of intimate knowledge of the prison system, and the language and way of speaking make me highly doubt that he's a guard. This author has either spent some time in prison himself, or is very well-acquainted with someone who has, and his testimony regarding the lifestyle that inmates live on the inside rings incredibly true. While I've only made it halfway through his post as yet, I am confident that this trend will continue. Definitely an interesting read for a regular law-abiding citizen. As for myself, while I found it interesting reading, it also brings back a lot of vivid memories. Enough of a jolt to remind me why I don't want to return to that style of life. Thank you for sharing this with us, and with me.
 

gruesomebrat

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As I continued reading, I came across this little anecdote. If I had had any doubt before as to whether this guy had been in prison, this cleared it right away. Like he says, prison humour is never really funny, and the truth is most convicts won't share the jokes they played inside with outsiders, simply because they've found that the humour often isn't appreciated. The fact that this author knows about this particular gag is near-certain proof that he did spend some time in lock-up.

There was a guy we were inside with though, whose cell was on the low tier nearest the main door. So he was the first one to see the fresh meat. Anytime a new inmate would be brought in, he'd yell out 'he fuck babies, I seen him, he fucked a baby, I seen him before I went away niggers, he a baby fucker kill that baby fucker!' and he'd do this every fucking time a new inmate would be brought in. And he'd go on with it for about half an hour afterwards to. So the first thing a prospective convict would hear on being greated to the dorm would be this nigger, with this high pitched Canadian accent - like Steve Erkel - hollaring about how he'd seen you, and that you were a baby fucker.

So when the new inmate would be brought inside, he'd get the silent treatment the whole time this crackhead would be barking about the baby fucker. And then his cellmate would lean in real close and whisper 'you a baby fucker?'

Prison humour is never really funny. That's probably the closest thing we ever had to a running gag. I guess it was funny because we all knew child sex offenders ever got locked in with us... but the new guys didn't know that.
When I was first starting in adult prisons, just after my 18th birthday, someone pulled a similar gag. I turned 18 in 2008, just a few months after Robert Pickton was arrested and tried for his serial killings in British Columbia, and when I came in, one of the inmates said that he was pretty sure I was in for similar charges. When my cellmate leaned in and asked me if I was in for murdering a bunch of helpless prostitutes, my first instinct was to go running for cover. Of course, in a 6X8, there's not much space to hide. I told him, in a very shaky voice, that no, in fact, I was not a serial killing pig farmer, and we didn't talk again for about an hour. The whole time we were locked in, I was thinking "What the hell happened on the outs that these guys think I'm a serial killer? Did someone else get arrested for something similar to Pickton?" It wasn't until a couple of days later, when I saw another new guy getting subjected to the same treatment, that I realized it was a running thing.

While reading this, though, I've noticed another notable difference between his prison and the one I was in. We had real TV, newspapers, and the such. The 6:00 news was the most watched program in the joint, on every range I found myself on, to the point that some ranges didn't allow you to make any noise during news-time. Showers were a no-no, unless you were just coming onto the range, phone calls had to be conducted in near-whispers, and card players were (relatively) politely asked to stop playing for the half hour of news. It was the biggest event of the day, with the exception of mealtimes.
 

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Just finished reading that post. It's now quarter to 2, and I've got school in the morning, so I'm going to try to keep this short.

One Amazing Writer said:
I walked out of the community hall and watched an armoured van pull up at the mall. I wandered inside and watched the guards carry these huge platters of cash in and start re-filling ATMs. And I started imagining how easy it would be. How the guard's fat fingers looked too big to slide into behind the trigger guards of the flash, nickel plated bitch pistols they had on their hips. How I'd park between their van and the front doors and have them covered before they realised what was happening - how I'd probably only need one other person with me, to cover the guy they probably had in the back with a shotgun - and how you could get one, maybe two hundred thousand out of them, on the Friday or Thursday before a holiday weekend. Enough to disappear with. How I could do it better than last time, how I wouldn't make stupid mistakes. Then a cop truck rolled past and I felt a wave of anxious panic wash over me, like they might know what I was thinking.

So I caught the bus home and waited up all night for morning. Because when I close my eyes I'm terrified I'm going to wake up back in my cell, listening to tuburculor coughs, faint weeping, sleep grunting, and the ever present deviated septum snoring of my cellmate. It's a stupid fear, but once it's dark, I get this creeping terror that maybe I'm still in solitary, having dumped a whole gram on my way in, and that this is all a fevered dream and when I wake up I'll still be inside.
Out of the entire post, this probably hit me the hardest. The fantasy of doing it again, doing it better, pulling off a score and disappearing from the scrutiny of probation/parole, and Community Service Officers, and the law in general... this is one of the biggest problems coming out of the joint.

The bold, underlined, italicized statement at the end there... that is pretty much exactly word-for-word how I would describe how I feel anytime I see a cop roll by the house, or tail a car I'm a passenger in, or sometimes even just drive past me as I'm biking. The sheer raw panic that seeing the cops brings out in me is often irrational, but seems to be a by-product of the Prison Mentality that Da Blob referenced earlier. That idea that any authority figure is automatically bad news, that the cops are a direct enemy of you... unless you've been in the system, it's difficult to fully appreciate what it's like. I imagine schizo's probably feel something similar when they have their paranoid delusions, but beyond that, I'm not sure there's too many other groups of people who can really truly relate to that feeling.

My particular crime of choice was car theft, and specifically opportunistic theft. I would find a car that was left running, or car keys that had been left unattended, and take off in those. I found that it gave a greater rush than breaking into a house to grab car keys and valuables, because you knew that you were on a much tighter schedule, and that there was a greater chance of getting caught. One of the most common tricks I would use would be to go to a church, or a doctor's office, or anywhere that had an open coat rack, grab a coat or two, and take off. More often than not, I would find car keys in the coat pockets, and then use the key fob or trial and error to identify which car belonged to the keys. I knew that if I went into a church early, like around 9:30, I'd have about 2 hours before the owner knew anything was wrong, which meant about 3 hours before the cops started looking for me. Since I've been out, I've found myself afraid to leave the house on Sunday mornings or evenings, because I don't want to fall prey to the temptation to pull a similar job. This idea of trying again, of "Practice makes perfect" seems to follow a lot of ex-cons, and the ones who best deal with those thoughts are generally the only ones who are able to stay out for long periods of time. I'm working on my 7th month out now, and already I'm feeling the fear of jail fade away, and the craving for an adrenaline boost rising. I know that the longer I stay out, the worse it gets, but continue to hope that, this time, with support from friends and what little family I have left, I'll be able to get through it, without too many problems. Stress tends to play a big role in motivation to re-offend, as well. The more stressed out I get, the more likely I am to start thinking about finding a way out, and that almost always leads to me thinking of grabbing another car, and making a break for the West coast, or the Atlantic seaboard, or jumping the border into America. The fact that I have managed to keep myself grounded this long, through the stress that I've been dealing with in the past 2 months (which is well-documented elsewhere on the forum)... to me, it's amazing.

EDIT: Just want to apologize for the triple post here. As you can see, they were spaced out over the course of the evening, and I wasn't comfortable going in and editing each section into the original post from this afternoon...
 

Da Blob

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I served in a private prison for convicts in the last year of their sentences. One of the so-called perks of the place was that with approved supervision the convicts were allowed out once a week to go to church or some where else.

Some of them simply could not handle the culture shock. It was just too different, there were more than a few get totally freaked out by a trip to a Walmart with money in their pockets - it scared the shit out of them.

for many life in prison is a relatively comfortable life. They know what is expected of a "good" convict, from the staff as well as from their fellow convicts, and can easily be an accepted citizen in that society. They can abide by the convict's code, but the confusion and all of the outside 'codes' are just too much to deal with. It is so sad to think that our prisons are so poorly designed for rehabilitation, that many prefer a life behind bars to freedom.

That is why I told my clients, that they would always be in prison, a prison of their own making, inside of their own heads, even on the out side of the fence, if they did not learn to think differently about their Selves and realize that all of the defensive, self-justifying thinking that seemed to protect like a fort - was that self-made prison. a prison very difficult to escape from....
 

gruesomebrat

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I served in a private prison for convicts in the last year of their sentences. One of the so-called perks of the place was that with approved supervision the convicts were allowed out once a week to go to church or some where else.

Some of them simply could not handle the culture shock. It was just too different, there were more than a few get totally freaked out by a trip to a Walmart with money in their pockets - it scared the shit out of them.

for many life in prison is a relatively comfortable life. They know what is expected of a "good" convict, from the staff as well as from their fellow convicts, and can easily be an accepted citizen in that society. They can abide by the convict's code, but the confusion and all of the outside 'codes' are just too much to deal with. It is so sad to think that our prisons are so poorly designed for rehabilitation, that many prefer a life behind bars to freedom.

That is why I told my clients, that they would always be in prison, a prison of their own making, inside of their own heads, even on the out side of the fence, if they did not learn to think differently about their Selves and realize that all of the defensive, self-justifying thinking that seemed to protect like a fort - was that self-made prison. a prison very difficult to escape from....
I respectfully disagree. Life in prison is never comfortable. It is easy. Especially in low-security joints like you are describing, where all you have to worry about is being a "model citizen". In a prison like that, there is next to no worry that you'll end up offending someone and ending up in trouble because of it. That's not to say that there's no violence in the low-security joints, but it's done almost entirely under the radar, and so as long as you stay in plain sight, you're generally safe.

I do agree that the culture shock associated with getting out, whether it be for a day trip, or at the end of one's sentence can make even seemingly simple tasks like going to the grocery store seem like a Herculean task. Part of this is because a great deal of the ease of living in a jail setting is that your food is prepared for you, your laundry is done either by the staff or by a small number of inmates, and your only worry in the world is keeping your bed area neat and tidy. When you get out, and are faced with simple tasks like grocery shopping or clothes shopping, or even just doing your laundry, it stumps you. And the longer you're in, the worse this phenomenon gets. Imagine if you spent the next 5 years knowing exactly when your food would be served, knowing exactly what food would be served on each particular day, having your laundry done for you every week... and all you had to do was keep your bedroom tidy, and go to your job. At the end of that 5 years, how capable would you be of making a meal for yourself? Of doing your own laundry? Of shopping for more food, or more clothes, or *gasp* a new car? This is exactly how many convicts feel when they come out. Now, think about this. In the past five years, technology advances have made our life in western societies incredibly different. The author of the post on teamliquid.net mentioned that it felt like he had just got out of a time machine. Considering how quickly technology is progressing now, when a given number of months sees as many technological advances as that same number of years would have seen in the 1900's, is it such a shock that these cons are coming out of prison, where nothing really changes from day to day, and experiencing extreme culture shock, to the point that they get freaked out when given a simple freedom?
 

Solitaire U.

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Thanks gruesomebrat for your vivid and thought provoking feedback. It's refreshing to see a thread blossom as this one has.

When I was 22 I got busted with pot, a misdemeanor offense at the time, and did 6 months at a minimum security county facility that was nothing like the facilities you and 'Amazing Writer' described. We called it 'The Farm' and that's a pretty accurate description of what the place was. Most notable difference was the living arrangements, which were huge barracks with communal restroom facilities at either end rather than individual cells. Also had a communal mess hall that was staffed by inmates. The whole place in fact was work-oriented. The primary activity was refurbishing/redistributing county office equipment, and we had fully equipped refinishing and reupholstering facilities to accomplish this. As one of the few there who had a valid class A license, my job was ferrying shit back and forth between the facility in a county bobtail truck with another dude, which was considered the best assignment in the place as it entailed spending up to 10 hours a day off-facility. It was really amazing...we'd drop these beat-to-shit desks and whatnot to the Mexicans in the shops and when they'd finish with it the stuff would look better than new...just beautiful work these dudes turned out.

We also had an agricultural department and were also responsible for distributing the little cartons of milk to the public schools in the area...another assignment I worked that was, I must say, loads of fun. There was even a system by which we accrued 'credits' for working that were paid upon release...mine was around 700 bucks for the entire six months but hey, it helped me get back on my feet. The discipline ethic there was ingeniously fucking simple...problems of any sort were simply not tolerated and a single offense would land your ass on the bus to do your time in county jail. Seemed to work out well as the hard-asses would filter back to lock-down where (I believe based on what I saw) they really wanted to be anyway and what would be left were the 'swinging dick' types who just wanted to do their time comfortably and never planned on coming back.

I acknowledge that this type of arrangement wouldn't work for everyone, but it was probably the closest thing to 'rehabilitation' a US correctional institution has ever been. Makes me wonder about the emphasis on severe isolation that appears to be the trend.

*Edit...gotta admit that I laughed when I read that "He fuck babies" bit.
 

gruesomebrat

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Solitaire, I've been on a farm as well, and I agree they're a lot of fun. I was up in Thunder Bay when I was doing my farm time, and while they've cut back a lot of the work details since you were in, it's still a much better way to do time. Working the time away makes it go so much faster, and the food is even better on the farms than in the medium/max that I was in. The supermax's here in Canada are supposed to be pretty good, for food, at least, as well, but that's largely due to the fact that they are federal pens. The provincial pens, with the exception of the farms, are notorious for crappy food. The provincial pens are also based on American federal pens, so the buildings and the attitude of the screws are very similar to those of the American pens. There are some little differences in scheduling and food quality, but that's about all.

Scheduling: We didn't have a cafeteria, meals were in our cells. Locked down for 2 hours around meals.
 

Solitaire U.

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Your description of the 6 oclock news really had me trippin'. Kind of like where the other guy was describing everyone watching Blues Clues during the Superbowl, and then nobody shows up two days later for the game rebroadcast.

Whatever gets you mentally outside, is I guess where it's at.

The one thing about the other guy's story that freaked me out was the solitary confinement bit. Did you ever have to run that gauntlet?
 

gruesomebrat

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As bad as what he had, no. I had to do solitary in juvie for a week, but that wasn't anywhere near as bad as solitary in the pens. In juvie, it was mandatory when you first came in. Intake range was single cells, 23-hour lockdown, no distractions. Longest week of my life, and when combined with the first hard time I had done, that was almost enough to stop me from committing a crime again. If they had left me there, and released me straight from solitary, I likely would have gone straight all the way back in '06 or '07. Instead, they moved me onto one of the ranges, and I ended up forgetting about it.

That's one of the big things that I didn't notice him writing about. The fact that your memory starts to go. While you're inside, every day is identical. The only thing that changes on a day-to-day basis is the food, and even that cycles through a 2- or 4-week rotation. If I thought it was possible, I would challenge anyone who wants a taste of the jail life to segregate themselves from all their contacts, and set a strict schedule for a month that they do not deviate from even once. A month after that experiment, if you were to ask them what had happened on a specific day, they might be able to tell you the basic schedule (got up, ate, lounged for a bit, ate, lounged some more, ate, lounged even more, went to bed), but I highly doubt they could do anything more than that. Prisoners pull it off for years. It's why you'll see inmates make a little calendar, counting down to their release date; because when every day is the same, the only thing that preserves your sanity is counting down the days until you can see a change. Your memory starts to go, though. At first, it's just that you can't remember what you did last week. As you go longer, though, it gets worse, until you reach a point where you can't remember what you had to eat yesterday, and therefore you don't know what's for lunch today. So, in addition to the calendars you see, most inmates will have a menu written up. Even with the 6 o'clock news offering some new information each day, watching the news just became part of the same old routine. It was something you did to pass the time, instead of to keep up with the times. I've been out for 6 1/2 months now, and at 6 o'clock, guess where you'll find me? The habits that you make in prison don't break easily, even when you find yourself in an ever-changing environment. When I came out, it was almost a month before I got myself enrolled in school. Not so much because I couldn't get to the school to do it, but because I had to deal with an incredible information overload every time I stepped out the front door. When I finally did enroll, every day for the first month was a challenge. Even though I managed to get over the information overload that walking out the front door slammed me into, I had to deal with a new info overload: the classroom. As things stand, 6 months out, I still haven't left my neighbourhood except for when I have to. I'm living just north of Toronto, but have court an hour west of Toronto. When I'm going to court, I fall asleep my surety's car. It's not because he's boring, or because the car's vibrations lull me to sleep, it's because the overload from driving, and especially going through the outskirts of Toronto would fry my brain. Even on the rare occasions that I don't go to sleep, I sit in the passenger seat and talk to the driver, and focus on the conversation instead of the scenery. It scared me to realize the first time that I stayed awake on the trip, that I hadn't seen a single thing on the trip from court.

That forgetfulness doesn't always go away after release, either. It can occasionally stay with you for a while into your 'free life', and make for some problems. It also tends to wipe out most of your memories from before your time inside, or at least, it did for me. I can remember very little of my life from before I was 15, and as a result define myself largely by my prison memories. Where everyone around me seems to have stories of "When I was a kid, this happened, and that happened, and my auntie made me cookies", I have "When I was in prison, this happened, and that happened, and my cellie beat the shit out of some pedo". It's scary when you realize that you've spent most of your mature life playing yo-yo between incarceration and freedom.
 
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You guys know that everything you guys are talking about have been proven in studies. Just read some more and come back.
 

gruesomebrat

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You guys know that everything you guys are talking about have been proven in studies. Just read some more and come back.
I'm afraid I don't understand, justice... please elaborate as to which parts of what we're talking about has been proven in a study.

Since, lately, we've been discussing the culture inside the jail system, I'm curious to know who paid for a study on that, and for what purpose. After all, it seems 90% of outsiders don't care, don't even want to know, about what happens inside the four walls of their nation's prisons. In fact, it seems that Western society's reaction to prison is "Out of sight, out of mind". As long as people don't see what happens in the prisons, they don't care what happens in the prisons. Which is actually a real shame, because a lot can be learned from the mini-societies that arise inside those four walls.

If you weren't referring to the ongoing discussion, I'm not sure what part you were referring to. I do know that there was a study referenced at the beginning of the thread, by a Stanton E. Samenow, Ph.D. Would that be the study you mean that has 'proven' something about the "criminal mind"?
 

Da Blob

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Hmm, perhaps etjp just wants you to "come back' to the thread and write more about your observations, to confirm or deny these studies? As it is there already have been a number of accurate books written by convicts while behind the fence or afterwards. there was one in particular, I recommended about how to deal with the world successfully upon release, written by a guy who served a very long sentence prior to his parole (I forget the title, sorry)

BTW- have you read Pedagogy of the Oppressed?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedagogy_of_the_Oppressed

A careful analysis of the teacher-student relationship at any level, inside or outside the school, reveals its fundamentally narrative character. This relationship involves a narrating Subject (the teacher) and patient listening objects (the students). The contents, whether values or empirical dimensions of reality, tend in the process of being narrated to become lifeless and petrified. Education is suffering from narration sickness.

The teacher talks about reality as if it were motionless, static, compartmentalized, and predictable...
http://www.webster.edu/~corbetre/philosophy/education/freire/freire-2.html


I use to tell my clients to substitute the words, convict for student and staff for teacher, because all institutions created by Oppressors had similar structure and similar goals - that included the man-made institution of religion, in many cases.

The Oppressors attempt to implant an institutionalized mindset in the Oppressed and it begins with the educational system and for some continues in the "correctional" systems...

Any way, my clients who were sharp enough to read and understand the book, really liked it...
 
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