The case against "Sin" (human and other flaws)

[Black Rose]

In the Bible, it calls moral flaws "Sins" but what are sins? If humans have flaws then what are they? Where are they stored? I have and only can conclude that flaws exist only and in the network of the arrangement of brain cell networks. Sin is not a goo or paste or black bile, it is not anything to do with anything other than the source of our character and character is, the source of it, is brain networks.

Why choose to do anything in the world? it has to do with the brain changing to survive, and sometimes because we have abnormal brains, misshapen brain, deformed brains, we choose to do bad things. We do not do bad things because we have bad black liquids inside us. We do bad because the brain has a shape to it and that shape changes and makes us move.

Because some brains have shapes that make them constantly do bad things we as a civilization punish them and kill them like dogs with rabies. But a dog with a disease is not bad, it is wounded from the inside. Its form has malfunctioned.

So what should we do with people who have a propensity to do bad things in the spiritual? Is it right to give them more pain for being the way they are?

59 While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” 60 Then he fell on his knees and cried out, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” When he had said this, he fell asleep.

I would say that even when we die and even when we have so much inside us that causes us to do bad things no one deserves to be punished forever.

In my understanding of human nature, we have inside us the ability to change. If Saul can change then anyone can. I do not think that it is impossible and I do not believe that it is right to think that "Sin" is what people think it is. It has all to do with the system we have inside us, and that system is what conditions us. What beats us into good or evil. A snake is poisonous but not evil, it had to be the way it is or die. So I believe that sin is just our form and our form is something to be transformed, to change from one thing to another. It is a health issue.

We know what physically cures and what does not. Spiritually we should know better also because they are not separate. If punishment is not a cure for cancer then neither is eternal punishment.

 

[ZenRaiden]

Punishment shapes our behavior, but not our thinking.

You are right.
What makes people different is change that goes beyond mere behavior. Ergo change on the inside be it mind or soul change.

Punishments are temporary deterrents.

The reason I think we humans use punishments is we think in pragmatic terms.
It takes sometimes for ever to change minds.
But alternating behavior is quick fix.

 

[birdsnestfern]

I think sin is what you do to another that isn't wholesome. And that includes most of what religion teaches.

But you have to know how your conscience works too.

A sin simply prevents your heart connection to God because its your conscience guilt tripping you, which disturbs the delicate balance that the psyche wants with its world - that is, to think it is perfect. It can't think this if it is a sensitive soul. If it is a non-sensitive soul, it can.

In reality, nobody is perfect against an OUTSIDE entity, and to try to be perfect is not the same as believing you are perfect as you are already.

Now, here is the infinite loop of that...The notion that you are NOT perfect is trickery to take you out of your power and truth.

Just give yourself permission to be the way you are. Do not judge yourself or others. People are fluid and are just vessels that carry thoughts and everything changes moment by moment. You are never the same from one moment to the next. Give up trying to judge yourself or anyone else. Just be.

____

Spiritual Violence:
What I consider bad is what happens in many places like the Good and Evil in Savannah, like Haiti witch doctors or underworld in New Orleans, and in Mexico - the witchcraft going on and voodoo, etc. and what they are effectively doing, is creating spiritual harm wars. Some are getting rich killing people, to use their souls to empower other souls and make them super human, (dieties or golems) and others are getting rich removing the curses that other witches put on them, and you can't go one day without this back and forth of invisible 'harming' of flesh and souls. Now that seems evil.

Haiti, or Mexico knowing entire cultures live off of putting curses on and taking them off and even just looking at someone the wrong way - you probably don't want to travel anywhere near there. But you do want to see how witchcraft and cartels and other crime go hand in hand, as they make people huge sums of money. It likely gets spread into every institution, schools, city heads, etc.

Witches in Mexico

Scary stories involving witches are endless in Mexico. There's even a common saying "las brujas vienen de Zacatecas", which translates to "witches come from Zacatec…

www.espookytales.com

What they do is super creepy:


Anyway, this youtuber has a LOT of other videos that show this bad side of humanity.
In my opinion, the little moral sins are SILLY compared to the huge sins against humans that occur daily in the underground world of every country and every city. You just don't know that much about them because they operate below the surface. INCLUDING in what the bible teaches you about sin. Its a scare tactic to keep people from knowing the truth of whoever is making these rules.
If you want truth, ONLY listen to the actual words of Jesus and disregard everything else in the bible.

 

[Black Rose]

I see things as distortions of what they could be.

That is, we all have in us that which is not perfect.

But worse for some than others.

Like having a limp leg or predator instinct.

But it is that we need to survive.

But addictions and self-harm are really distortions.

And that is an outside and inside force.

The DNA and environment.

Form follows function.

But then what form is good what form is bad?

We do what we are.

So what we are must become good.

If possible?

 

[sushi]

you start to sound like lilith from diablo 4

without sin then you are implying freedom of action without regard of consequences, meaning any crime is justified because one does not have to follow social contract.

Cannibalism is rationalized as a survival instinct when there is food scarcity, as long as it is not me who is the meal. There are no definite rules and morality in this world, only consequences.

 

[Black Rose]

There are no definite rules and morality in this world, only consequences.

As any and all "crimes" happen because people have flaws and needs we should find ways to fix those. we cannot fix them by saying that eternal punishment exists.

 

[Black Rose]

Some say suffering is not evil.
Yet so long as suffering is not evil then god has no reason to stop suffering.
If suffering is not evil then it does not matter if I make others suffer or if god does it.

But if it is the preference that suffering does not happen then god does not want it.

The only reason evil exists would be if god cannot touch it but god suffers all the time so what would sin be?

Sin is not a material it is not a substance but I believe only qualia exist, there are no "materials".

So what is it that god cannot touch that is sin?

Nothing exists outside of consciousness so to god the only thing that god wants is less suffering. That is the only thing god can want besides good things that have a positive quality to them.

So:

God does not want to suffer.

God wants good things.

in utilitarian terms, long-term good things outweigh temporary suffering but long-term suffering cannot outweigh temporary goodness.

Only by maximizing long-term goodness can temporary suffering be justified.

And that is the only reason God created anything at all. "Sin" does not factor in at all. All sin can do is make the good things more costly in terms of suffering. Suffering is the cost of good things.

 

[ZenRaiden]

There are no definite rules and morality in this world, only consequences.

That what sociopaths would have you believe.
Ever wonder how you made it alive today?

 

[scorpiomover]

In the Bible, it calls moral flaws "Sins" but what are sins?

According to the Bible, harm caused by negligence.

If humans have flaws then what are they? Where are they stored?

Same place as in atheists.

Why choose to do anything in the world? it has to do with the brain changing to survive, and sometimes because we have abnormal brains, misshapen brain, deformed brains, we choose to do bad things. We do not do bad things because we have bad black liquids inside us. We do bad because the brain has a shape to it and that shape changes and makes us move.

Because some brains have shapes that make them constantly do bad things we as a civilization punish them and kill them like dogs with rabies. But a dog with a disease is not bad, it is wounded from the inside. Its form has malfunctioned.

So what should we do with people who have a propensity to do bad things in the spiritual? Is it right to give them more pain for being the way they are?

I would say that even when we die and even when we have so much inside us that causes us to do bad things no one deserves to be punished forever.

The Bible says many times, that G-d wants only that you will "return to Him".

It is you that keeps away, you that chooses to harm people due to negligence. If you don't like harming yourself and others, then why not just stop?

 

[Black Rose]

In the Bible, it calls moral flaws "Sins" but what are sins?

According to the Bible, harm caused by negligence.

If humans have flaws then what are they? Where are they stored?

Same place as in atheists.

So you believe the brain is where it's at.

Then why is the brain flawed?

Why choose to do anything in the world? it has to do with the brain changing to survive, and sometimes because we have abnormal brains, misshapen brain, deformed brains, we choose to do bad things. We do not do bad things because we have bad black liquids inside us. We do bad because the brain has a shape to it and that shape changes and makes us move.

Because some brains have shapes that make them constantly do bad things we as a civilization punish them and kill them like dogs with rabies. But a dog with a disease is not bad, it is wounded from the inside. Its form has malfunctioned.

So what should we do with people who have a propensity to do bad things in the spiritual? Is it right to give them more pain for being the way they are?

I would say that even when we die and even when we have so much inside us that causes us to do bad things no one deserves to be punished forever.

The Bible says many times, that G-d wants only that you will "return to Him".

It is you that keeps away, you that chooses to harm people due to negligence. If you don't like harming yourself and others, then why not just stop?

Because the brain is flawed.

Why does God not fix this?

That answer is that God is handicapped in what he can do.

These flaws will not be fixed until later when God has the capability.

 

[Drvladivostok]

So what should we do with people who have a propensity to do bad things in the spiritual? Is it right to give them more pain for being the way they are?

In my opinion a sin or universal wrongdoing happen when you go against all reasonable considerations like logic, emotion, and conscience. Of course this assumes normal well-tuned human beings have a universal capacity for all these attributes, but if they do, going against them would warrant a slap in the wrist from God. If Sin ought to be punished then for it to be justified there ought to be a universal indicator that every human posses to know sin from virtue.

This would raise some implementation problems, and we could never implement this, hence the legal truism; Presumptio jures de jure, everyone is assumed to know the law, even if they don't. But I suppose the Lord works in mysterious ways up there.

We know what physically cures and what does not. Spiritually we should know better also because they are not separate. If punishment is not a cure for cancer then neither is eternal punishment.

The cure for sin is the renewal of the universal spiritual conscience (if it exist) and the rejection of decadence, I believe the only way for this to be achieved is though the exercise of reason.

Eternal punishment isn't meant to be a cure; if retributive law is meant to satisfy the feeling of justice of the people I suppose hell is to satisfy the feeling of justice of God or maybe the concept of hell itself ought to be enough to rebuke people from sin.

 

[Drvladivostok]

Punishment shapes our behavior, but not our thinking.

Punishment change behavior, which change habit, which change thinking.

Of course a potent model for behavioral coding would warrant more means than the gallows, but people who are able to hand out flogging usually chose which paper is printed.

However I do believe different peoples-by the virtue of their genetics and culture-have different ability to abide by the law, if this is true then it would mandate different model of governance. People in Sudan won't necessarily abide by the same behavioral ethics as the Japanese even if they change places.

So the conclusion is that while every society is malleable by design, not everyone can be hammered away in the same manner.

 

[ZenRaiden]

Punishment change behavior,

Short term yes. Sometimes long term, but chances are if you get punished and change, you'd change even if you did not get punished, but reprimanded.
The reality is many criminals commit crimes after they leave prison.
Prisons are good example of how behaviors and change don't always coincide.

Reforming people and changing to be better for themselves and society should ultimately be at forefront of every judgement we have of other people.
A murderer who goes to prison and leaves a prison is a liability for society. And yes many murderers left prisons and killed right after they left the prison.
I heard a case where a guy left prison and went on killing spree.

Children often get punished for years, but do they ever listen? Not really, they just listen when adults are around, the moment you look away they act badly.
Trust me people need to get a life and real about this.
Behavior change does not imply internal change.

Also conscience is not the only thing that drives good behavior.
Conscience is in some ways restrictive for individual.
There are plenty good people who have very little conscience.

Punitive and restrictive thinking is crude and short term solution.

What people need is both culture, and evolve.
Culture is societal growth, and evolving means you outgrow your flawed behaviors.
Instead of punishment people need direction and insights. That takes longer, but is vital.


TLDR behavior is superficial, inner architecture of person is where its at.

 

[Black Rose]

Eternal punishment isn't meant to be a cure; if retributive law is meant to satisfy the feeling of justice of the people I suppose hell is to satisfy the feeling of justice of God or maybe the concept of hell itself ought to be enough to rebuke people from sin.

TLDR behavior is superficial, inner architecture of person is where its at.

I mean you can kill dogs that bite kids because then the dog is shown to be too dangerous for society to sustain. But in nature, this dog just wants to eat and not die. But then if you were to say torture that dog severy before killing it just to satisfy feelings most people would not approve of this. So revenge as an instinct is natural but is it Good? Past and present, We would kill anyone in society who did bad things and this was for the purpose of self-domestication. The better genes spread as a way of changing society to become more or less docile. As predators humans do kill as a form of fun activity, and we do feel it is fun to just torture things but even if we have this need this does not mean and eye for an eye is Good. The reason things are the way they are is because of the way the wiring of the brain allows us to feel like doing bad things to other creatures, the predatory instinct. This is transferred to what God is thought to be like. That God would be vengeful like an animal. That God is a predator.

That is why it is wrong to say that God wants justice because if he did he would not allow predation but because he does he must be that same evil. If God were just and not a predator he would simply not create preditors in his own image.

So if God exists and is not supposed to be evil, God must not let anyone seek revenge at all. Hate is bad, torture is bad but we are designed that way to do these things. No person has in them anything not related to the predation of others that was not designed in them. So the just thing to do would be to change them not to be that way. It is not enough just to threaten them with punishment.

As God would not want people to satiate in the rape and torture of other people to their own satisfaction. I think society is going towards a neo-eugenics program where it is possible to change people from the inside out not to require such measures as "punishments". But it will not be simple because people can take advantage of the system to control their enemies. What would happen supposedly if we took away people's political rights because they were of a different ethnicity or belief system? Already in the USA political groups are making "plans" to further some agenda at punishing their "enemies". And this was clear from what happened to the black community after the civil rights movement. The importing of illegal drugs by the secret government and the extreme increases in incarcerations. Because some people did not like it that they were not allowed to discriminate anymore. So if neo-eugenics happens it will not be determined by some dominant ethnic group or even some dominant personality group but by a technological understanding of what constitutes a genuine destructive psychology.

 

[ZenRaiden]

@Black Rose
Yes, but you do realize you are still in realm of behavior.
Everything you said is "someone does stuff".

When I murder a teletuby, its intent + behavior + outcome. The outcome is no murder, then I am not murderer. Otherwise you would have to put in prison every gamer who killed a polygon, pixelated avatar.
Then we have intent.
Would thinking murder get me in prison?
Then we have the core of humans?
What generates intent.
Social engineering has always existed.
Christianity, and other religions are literally social engineering.
Culture is the same thing.
Your upbringing in function is social engineering.
You keep talking about future, but look at how we function today first?
We don't need to get all woo woo esoteric sci fi AI futuristic about stuff.
Literally society is imbued with social rules and regulation for the very purpose of human cohesion and adherence to harmony and order.
Its part of human and collective intelligence.
Jungs concept of collective unconscious is literally the very thing that makes us able to function as larger society.
That said, does it mean we are in some sense able to change of say murderer to not murder. The answer is yes. Literally million variables here happening everyday that keeps us from falling into oblivious chaos.
Its not that simple to know where "anti social stuff" comes from.
We are still individuals with some core characteristics, that are independent of behavior, but those characteristics happen to generate behavior.

That God is a predator.

Christians and atheist argue a lot, but one thing about religions nowadays is, that a lot of things these religions do is the confuse people.

If our life depends on defining God, and no one really can tell what the hell God wants then we might as well just live.
Are you going to stake your moral conscience on whether God is "this particular type of person?" is it even pragmatic?
I know that its mostly intellectual exercise, but lets be clear, lot of these considerations don't enter real world in any shape or form.
We can wonder, but at the end of the day, your left with lots of thoughts and words, that will probably not change who you are as person.
If God is evil or you are evil or I am evil or we are good people and God is good etc.
What does that even mean at the end of the day?
Just bunch of tangled thoughts and fruitless considerations.
I know its part of theology, but does it ever reflect anything even remotely tangible in your life?

 

[Black Rose]

What does that even mean at the end of the day?
Just bunch of tangled thoughts and fruitless considerations.
I know its part of theology, but does it ever reflect anything even remotely tangible in your life?

People look down on me because they are elitist, stupid or just wrong.

So at the core of it is my insecurity with people who are mean to me.

why are they mean if God is about love n' shit? it doesn't make sense.

its like the divide between left and right politics.

all atheists are becoming hard left and all religious are becoming hard right. Why?

the religious want more wars and more violence but because it makes God come faster, insane.

Social engineering has always existed.
Christianity, and other religions are literally social engineering.
Culture is the same thing.
Your upbringing in function is social engineering.

science will not allow the smart person to be fooled by fake shit.

so then what will people do who think God still exists?

they go underground, and the dumb get butchered in their fake belief system.

no one will believe them, their kids will abandon them, they will like any cult die.

so if there is a replacement it will not be anti-science, and it will not be elitists.

both are too small to exist in the future.

it needs to be about the truth of what God is—something to do with consciousness.

I would like not to think God goes away but then it becomes a divide of high intelligence vs low intelligence. and also a divide of kind vs mean persons.

I do not want a war in the Middle East because of stupid mean radical religious people.