The Awkward Pause

[chocolate]

Chocolate:
I do engage in girly behaviour with some of my girlfriends (all Fs), but almost always feel ashamed and guilty for it. There's a kind of mindless pleasure to be derived from it, and occasionally it provides opportunity for wit (100 ways to say "he's butt-ugly - fail") but the lack of substance disturbs me overall. Maybe it's different when both parties recognise it for the massive mental mutilation it is.

YAY!!!!!
Just a burst of happiness at being an INTP and on this forum!


(Excuse the excessive exclamation marks and emoticons - oh my god what if I'm an INFP)

haha, I over-emote too! And I've been pretty excited about this forum too!

Yeah I'm pretty girlie lookswise, I like fashion (my N can get a bit excited about creating outfits) and lip gloss and looking pretty to a point. But I don't act stereotypically girlie at all, and I hate gossiping. I think delighting in being a girl is fun but it's important to realize it for what it is...that being pretty is not the be all and end all of life, and that there are more worthwhile ways to spend your time than looking in a mirror.

 

[cheese]

There are two sillies. Silly good and silly bad. It's the difference between Monty Python and George W. Bush. - Sugarpop

(I'm not sure who you were addressing this to)
I think I know what you mean, although I don't see how this advances the discussion. I took Ermine's "silly" to mean "behaving in a stupid way" with the additional qualifiers of "placing too much importance on the trivial", based on the context of discussion.

Monty Python silly = intelligent, intentional and mocking silliness - irrelevant here.
Bush silly = stupidity, short-sightedness, selfishness, ignorance - slightly more relevant perhaps, although I hardly think the word "silly" sufficiently captures the amount of potential (and realised) danger in his behaviour, in which case "silly" is the wrong word to use and Bush is no longer a valid comparison point, unless you wish to argue the girls' behaviour is as potentially harmful as Bush's.

When I brought up my own bouts of silliness, I of course meant them to be directly comparable to the girls' - behaving unintentionally stupidly and over-emphasising the trivial - and not Python-esque. This was my grounds for our similarity.


I'm by all means capable of silliness, just not the girly sort. And where's the harm in laughing at human customs if I'm not putting a damper on the party?

Ermine: I was responding to (what came across to me as) a sense of superiority that in my experience at least is unfounded, and the betrayal of trust I mentioned earlier - laughing at them is one thing, but doing it under the guise of bonding (which is how I read your comment) seems a little underhanded.

There is no immediate harm but in yourself - by fostering these kind of attitudes towards other people you increase the probability of disregarding possible future sources of knowledge and becoming blind to your own faults.

This is all with the assumption that I interpreted your comment correctly; what I've said stands in that context but I'm not sure what you meant, so please clarify if necessary!


Chocolate:
So what do you think all this over-emoting means? Are we secretly Fs? Your feeling function as an ENTP is Fe as well right? I suppose it's your tertiary so you have more of an excuse than I Uh oh!
I can't say I hate merely informative gossiping, because I like to know what's going on, but I do despise the nasty stuff, and even the former in excess makes me feel sick and a little mentally violated.
I look quite girly too, much to my distress! I've decided I quite like ENTPs by the way. You're an interesting lot.

 

[chocolate]

Chocolate:
So what do you think all this over-emoting means? Are we secretly Fs? Your feeling function as an ENTP is Fe as well right? I suppose it's your tertiary so you have more of an excuse than I Uh oh!

....

I've decided I quite like ENTPs by the way. You're an interesting lot.

haha, no I don't think we're Fs! I like to be nice to others and friendly, but I can't for the life of me figure out my own feelings! Or figure out whether they're logical enough for me to consider them lol.

Yes, ENTP is Ne, Ti, Fe, Si I believe, and INTP is switched to: Ti, Ne, Si, Fe right?

Oh yeah and that last part you said -- so true. No one beats us in interesting! Except perhaps the INTP

 

[Ermine]

Ermine: I was responding to (what came across to me as) a sense of superiority that in my experience at least is unfounded, and the betrayal of trust I mentioned earlier - laughing at them is one thing, but doing it under the guise of bonding (which is how I read your comment) seems a little underhanded.

There is no immediate harm but in yourself - by fostering these kind of attitudes towards other people you increase the probability of disregarding possible future sources of knowledge and becoming blind to your own faults.

I don't claim to be superior. I don't think they are being stupid or inferior, just different, and humorously alien to me. And it's not like I voice my opinions, I simply chuckle to myself while I observe.

What trust is being betrayed here? And how am I betraying anyone at all?

 

[cheese]

Chocolate:
Yes that's right.
I don't often have problems identifying my feelings though - but I've kept you here too long! I'll probably talk about the F/T problem when/if I do the intro-thing.

Ermine:
Sorry, none of this was intended as a jab at you; I was simply explaining that what I read in your comment (mind-smirking) was something I understood and inadvertently participate in myself but try not to because it violates some of my principles. I'll try to explain what I meant again:

Slightly, because it seemed to suggest snideness under cover of friendliness - a sort of betrayal of the trust implicit in any shared "bonding" activity. Sorry if I read it the wrong way. - cheese

What I mean by this is that in bonding activities, there's the subconscious assumption that all parties involved are engaging in behaviour meant to foster emotional ties, however superficial. Engaging in this activity with the covert intention to jeer at, but behaving in a manner meant to suggest the above, seems to me to betray the assumption/trust on the others' part that you are doing the same. If the person jeered openly that would be another matter because the intent would be clear and wouldn't undermine the objectives of the bonding activity, since the jeerer would be clearly separate from the group.

I used the word "superior" because you called the girls "silly", leading me to think you found them wanting in sense and ostensible intelligence, and just now I used "jeer" because you said you were laughing at them, and in the context of assumed superiority that would be jeering.


THIS IS WHAT I MEANT, although it seems I interpreted what you said wrongly and perhaps was projecting. I responded to what I thought you were saying, and it stands in that context only. If I read you wrongly I apologise!

 

[joser1978]

Dude, I totally know how you feel. What I do firs of all is always try to fit in. I would have said " what up guys" in a very loud commanding voice, not too fucking loud though man, you don't want them to think that you are yelling at them, or demanding attention. and after listening for a short while, if you know that you are out of you're element, then get the fuck out of there. Cause trust me , you don't want to comment on shit that is out of you're element. You will sound ignorant. I f you do find that the topic is not stimulating at all then dont stick around, just say; something like " I will see yall later" or something like that.

 

[Halcyon]

Little do they know that I'm laughing at them, not with them...

It sounded like you were poking harmless fun at society (we can never have enough of this) and meant it to be taken with a grain of salt. Cheese, I think you may have over- analyzed this.


As for awkward pauses I can definitely relate. I've been in situations where I'm in a group of 3 or 4 people and there's one extrovert with a dominant personality who's the source of the conversation. If he leaves to go to the bathroom or something things can just get awkward.
Also it really depends who I'm around. For some people, like a few of my close friends, I will have unlimited things to say. For other people I will have nothing (this is most people). I found that my time is better spent thinking of how to cleverly avoid eye contact with them than to initiate a dead-end conversation. The people I can speak more freely with are open-minded, iNtuitive, and don't have overbearing personalities. They are more creative and are less likely to judge.
A conversation with an ESFJ, on the other hand, is just like one big awkward pause; I just want it to end as soon as possible. (ahhhhh SJs!!)

 

[Ermine]

^That's what I intended. It's hard to convey tone and context when I have nothing but text and smilies to work with online.

 

[FacetiousPersona]

It sounded like you were poking harmless fun at society (we can never have enough of this) and meant it to be taken with a grain of salt. Cheese, I think you may have over- analyzed this.

The analysis contained a valid interpretation of the comment. I think it is foolish to state a comment which may be offensive to some and not expect one of those people to possibly criticize it or react. Someone may also analyze it through interest.

What is wrong with analyzing content and contemplating a matter? We advance our thinking via this and improve. Who is correct out of Cheese and Ermine? What is produced from this discussion is important to me, not whether the discussion itself is right or wrong.

 

[Weliddryn]

If this needs to be moved please do

So I tired joining a conversation today. I only knew one of the other people in it. But they mostly talked without me. When some of them left it was just me and two other people. The one person I knew and one I did not. I was hoping for that person to at to bring me into the conversation. But that did not happen. What ended up happing was me and the person staring at each other in silence. I slowly walked off, stupidly.

I'm not sure how to take this. I feel pathetic. What should I have done?Another thing to mention is that i introduced myself poorly. I said hi, but I don't think they heard me. I should have gotten out then. How much harm is done?Do other INTPs end up in situations like this often?

I think I should give up trying sometimes. But thats so unsatisfying for some reason.

I was introduced, constantly, to new people by my friend. Every time she brought somebody new over, I would immediately fall silent, and simply observe the person, not saying anything at all. This is a recent realization, as I was asked if I was mute by an individual that I was introduced to. Before, I had not even realized that I did this.

I am typically "the leader" in the relationship between my friend and I, but whenever somebody new comes over, she proves her superiority in social interaction. Most of the time this does not bother me, but I have wondered, on occasion, as to why I was such a freak or why I was so different. Social interaction is a vital part of most human's lives, it can be bothersome when you are very inept in engaging in it.

 

[cheese]

I analysed it in depth as Ermine did not understand my response, which I reiterate was from a position of similarity.

Whether the analysis was in line with Ermine's intentions is a separate matter. I understand that it was not (this was from a while ago by the way). I think the response is valid though, in that it is quite likely the way some others would respond (I have asked friends and they agreed with me). Others would read it as you and Halcyon did. It's interesting to me to see how different responses are reached. I found it fun following my reasoning process. Sorry if it offended.

 

[Ermine]

It wasn't a matter of offense, just confusion on my part.

 

[cheese]

Weli:
Yes! I lead as well, in one-on-one interactions. As soon as a new party is brought in that I do not know, I often fall silent. (It depends, actually. Sometimes my dominance extends, but not always.) It's very frustrating and confusing for me. I think it may be because I do not know the person well, and neither party makes an effort to include me. Because of this I always introduce new people to the ones I am currently with, and allow them to interact a little so the original does not feel left out.