StudyClub#2: Vitamin D insufficiency

[Hadoblado]

I'm gonna start opening up study club threads whenever I start a deep dive and encourage others to do the same (but try to stick to the established convention). I'm writing a short essay on this, but the framing is such that I'm probably not going to be able to talk at a degree of specificity that I want to, so I'm bringing it up here.

I live in an area near the hole in the ozone layer. The government recommends staying in the shade when UV is =>3. In Spring, for example, it goes above 10 every day. I feel like there's a huge disconnect between the government's approach and what we actually need to do to be healthy.

The study question should probably be something like "how much vitamin D should a person take and what factors adjust this?"

ATM I'm reading about how scientists class deficiency vs. insufficiency, and whether there's consensus on extraskeletal benefits.

 

[Cognisant]

From memory (and in Australia) you only need like 5min of direct sunlight a day, a deficiency really only occurs in people who aren't getting any sun at all like those in the arctic, submariners or night shift workers.

UV is a serious problem in Australia

The highest rate of melanoma skin cancers in the world

 

[Puffy]

From memory (and in Australia) you only need like 5min of direct sunlight a day, a deficiency really only occurs in people who aren't getting any sun at all like those in the arctic, submariners or night shift workers.

UV is a serious problem in Australia

The highest rate of melanoma skin cancers in the world

Aye, vitamin D deficiency can be more of a problem in my part of the world (UK.) There can be long stretches of time of little light and lots of clouds so if people work in doors all day they could become deficient. My nurse/doctor usually tells me that vitamin D levels in most people they see are low here so I tend to just use supplements and try to walk outside a couple of hours per day.

 

[Rook]

like idk im ok with the sun. i've heard of sun rooms in uk? tough.

 

[birdsnestfern]

I believe you need to be sweating for your skin to absorb the Vitamin D - so forehead oils and skin oils will help. Let some natural skin oils form by not showering daily. Can do a quick work out like lifting 5 lb weights to sweat a bit - then go for a walk around 2:30pm (I use Sidereal Noon time, the tables are on the Navy website) because it is when Earth is aligned in the center of the universe and the best time to do things in the Sun metaphysically speaking. (Maximum benefit from universe). https://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/siderealtime

Take D3, K2, Magnesium L Threonate.

The Synergistic Interplay between Vitamins D and K for Bone and Cardiovascular Health: A Narrative Review - PMC

Vitamins D and K are both fat-soluble vitamins and play a central role in calcium metabolism. Vitamin D promotes the production of vitamin K-dependent proteins, which require vitamin K for carboxylation in order to function properly. The purpose of ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I take it for a week or two 5-10,000 iu and then stop and start again later, or else you can get too much of anything. You need to take K2 with D3 for it to be absorbed into bones and not cause arterial issues.






Look for a sun hat, if needed if its hot.

I would NOT use sunscreen, more likely skin cancer comes from SPF garbage in that. In fact, I only look for deep sun tan lotion IF I use it at all, I am under 6 oaks in dark dark shade and hardly any light comes into my windows, so I probably need to start Vitamin D back again. I used to canoe every Memorial weekend and got way too much sun doing that, so some sun damage on my forearms still. But this is why I learned to LOVE white untanned skin because it is softer and who really needs a tan anyway. Just enjoy the sun in small bits and if you will be out long, wear a hat. Eat fresh fruits so you have minerals to process the sunlight and sweat a little, thats what I believe anyway. If the suns rays are strongest between 11am and 2pm, maybe make 2:30pm the daily walk.

Skin Cancer Basics

From symptoms to prevention, get the basics on skin cancer from the experts at WebMD.

www.webmd.com

 

[Cognisant]

 

[Puffy]

You can use your butthole to smoke DMT as well. Just stick a pipe up your anus, get a friend to inhale some fat crystals and blow it up your ass. Make sure they blow some tobacco smoke up your ass first with a shamanic prayer for your protection. You don’t want any dark entities getting in there and blocking your plumbing so to speak. The DMT machine elves will be a bit curious about the anal probe but they’ve seen everything at this point and will be chill with it. If you butthole sun at the same time your anus will be super-powered with celestial light and you’ll even be able to talk out your ass for a week or maybe even longer.

 

[Rook]

teach me ur ways senpai

 

[birdsnestfern]

I'm glad the ozone is closing up, because the magnetic field gets dissipated without it.
I bet the pandemic and people staying home and not driving as much helped.

Record-breaking 2020 ozone hole closes

The record-breaking 2020 Antarctic ozone hole finally closed at the end of December after an exceptional season due to naturally occurring meteorological conditions and the continued presence of ozone depleting substances in the atmosphere.

public.wmo.int

 

[scorpiomover]

I'm gonna start opening up study club threads whenever I start a deep dive and encourage others to do the same (but try to stick to the established convention). I'm writing a short essay on this, but the framing is such that I'm probably not going to be able to talk at a degree of specificity that I want to, so I'm bringing it up here.

I live in an area near the hole in the ozone layer. The government recommends staying in the shade when UV is =>3. In Spring, for example, it goes above 10 every day.

I just read that UV 9 => damage within 15-25 minutes, and UV 11+ => damage within 10 minutes.

I feel like there's a huge disconnect between the government's approach and what we actually need to do to be healthy.

That's true of most governments. The things that people actually NEED to do, are things that are serious enough that it warrants the government FORCING people to do those things.

However, most people in liberal democracies don't like to feel forced to do things. So instead governments mandate employers, manufacturers and retailers, by refusing a licence to sell, to those who don't play ball.

That way, you can feel free, because you can buy anything you want in your country. It's just that no-one in your country is allowed to sell anything to you that the government doesn't want you to have. So you're forced to do what the government wants, because of lack of choice.

The study question should probably be something like "how much vitamin D should a person take and what factors adjust this?"

Considering that with vitamins, more => better health, the study question should be "What is the maximum amount of Vitamin D that a person can absorb and would increase their health?"

 

[birdsnestfern]

How much you take depends on how deficient you are. Example: Dr. prescribed 30,000 iu a day because I was very low.

This article from Mayo clinic says 4000 iu a day can cause issues if you are NOT deficient, so, a blood test is a good idea and then test again after a few months so you will know.

A middle road is, just take 5000-10,000 iu a day for a few weeks, then stop, and start again in another month. Listen to your body and just take vitamins when you feel like you need to so you don't have to worry about getting too much. D3 is the preferred type.

This article has a lot to read about it:

Vitamin D

Learn how vitamin D affects bone health and other health conditions, and discover the possible side effects of taking too much of this supplement.

www.mayoclinic.org

But Mercola has information that I trust even if FDA doesn't trust him, I believe him.

https://www.mercola.com/article/vitamin-d-resources.htm

 

[Hadoblado]

(I'm still doing this I'm just concentrating on my other units which are a lot more intensive atm).

I did discover I may have been fed some dumb shit and repeating it about the ozone layer thing. My bad.

Yeah scorpio it's insane. I can get sunburnt walking to the corner store if I don't take precautions.

Spoiler

This is a random clear day from January this year.

 

[birdsnestfern]

These are sun flares from a few days ago. Yes, sun flares are really bad right now.

GOES Solar Ultraviolet Imager (SUVI) | NOAA / NWS Space Weather Prediction Center

www.swpc.noaa.gov

NOAA Space Weather Scales | NOAA / NWS Space Weather Prediction Center

www.swpc.noaa.gov

Anyway, can also look on facebook for Solar Flares and Schumann Resonance updates, extreme activity right now so stay inside.

Planetary K-index | NOAA / NWS Space Weather Prediction Center

www.swpc.noaa.gov

K-index - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Minuend]

I don't understand how nothern europe is so poorly adapted. They rank high on cancer, but also d vitamin deficiency. Like wat. If I spend time outside I'll get cancer, but if I play Gothic inside all day I'll be deficient. How did people survive back in the days? Did our environment change a lot or what?

 

[Hadoblado]

I suspect cancer wasn't as big of a deal because you weren't expected to last long enough for it to become an issue :thonk:

 

[scorpiomover]

I don't understand how nothern europe is so poorly adapted. They rank high on cancer, but also d vitamin deficiency. Like wat. If I spend time outside I'll get cancer, but if I play Gothic inside all day I'll be deficient. How did people survive back in the days? Did our environment change a lot or what?

They evolved in places where they might get 20 minutes of sunlight a day. If the weather is getting too warm for them, they might need to move Northwards.

 

[ZenRaiden]

It depends.
Sun light according to some sources, says you have to be exposed to the strongest sun in the day.
That is when the sun is highest and also it has to be summer time, because if the sun rays have to cut through longer atmosphere it means the effect of vitamin D production is not happening.
In other words you need only 15 minutes of strongest summer sun to have enough to last the whole year.
But how many days I am not sure.
If you get exposed to too much to sun your pigment blocks vit D production.
Personally I would not be surprised if sunburns on skin prevent skin from manufacturing vit D either.


When it comes to supplements it depends how well your body absorbs the vitamin.
Very likely most of the vitamin does not get absorbed.
@birdsnestfern is correct in this sense that higher amounts are more likely to have positive effect, and you have to subtract the vitamin D that does not get absorbed.
SO if only 50 percent get absorbed then taking 30 000 IU could really be equal to getting 15 000 IU.

There also seems to be a different effect.
That is deficit mode the body works differently than in high amounts.
Vit D activates all cells in body.
If you have say 50 percent of vit D than the norm then that means all the cells in body work on 50 percent.
Vit D is not classified anymore as vitamin, but a hormone since it makes body cells active.

Vitamin science is not clear what is optimal or even what is necessary.
According to videos I watched on youtube by UCTV the doctor said that vitamin D is preventive medicine.

He claims the deficits in vit D are among people around equator as well as they hide form sun in afternoon time so they actually can have higher deficits than those higher above equator.

He also says the regular measured vit D on equators in African tribes exceeds by a larger than expected margin to what is considered the healthy norm by current recommendations by WHO and other organizations.

He also claims overdose is near impossible, though there are things like calcification that might happen in overdose.

Though its not clear what causes overcalcification and whether it is directly caused by vit D.

Calcium in bones gets absorbed only by physical activity. Therefore having calcium in blood does not translate to having calcium in bones, unless the body absorbs the calcium into bone, through mechanisms that are largely not clear yet, but physical activity is better predictor than drinking fortified milk or having higher amounts of calcium in blood.

When the doctor asked vit D specialist to anonymously place a number of IU of vit D on paper, that is how much they supplement he added the average up to be around 9000 IU daily. That is the people who study the vitamin D.
I doubt these people have reasons to promote vit D commercially too much as its dirty cheap.
So I would assume they are not lying, but who knows.

People of darker skin are more likely to suffer vit D deficiency.

EDIT: As you know I took Vit D + K and pooped it whole up, since it was not taken after fatty meal.
Fat soluble means you need to eat fat with vit D or taking vit D is meaningless.

 

[Hadoblado]

I finished the assignment, I'll post it once I've received a mark so that anything I share doesn't get pinged by plagiarism search engines.

Basically, there is an enormous number of factors that go into predictive models of VDI. Most of them boil down to somehow impacting your ability to go outside during sunny times, and the rate at which you can absorb UVR during the time you do spend. Adults are much more at risk than children. Blacks are more at risk than whites. Women are more at risk than men.
If you live at a more severe altitude, the chances of VDI go way up due to a global increase in many minor factors (not just the increased UV dispersal from distance traveled through the atmosphere which is a common assumption). Where I live, during winter, even people that spend 4+ hours outside a day (which is rare) are 45% VDI. Supplementation is required down here. Diet can help, but it's in such small quantities that unless you're eating fish every day you're still going to need vitamins.

There was a lot more that I researched, but the assignment was tiny word count giving no room to go to any depth or nuance. There are a lot of questions surrounding the cutoffs for meaningful categories of insufficiency and deficiency. I stuck primarily to the skeletal benefits which are better understood and lumped deficiency in with insufficiency. Experts seem to disagree on extraskeletal benefits, and in my experience when there's this level of disagreement it's best to back the null hypothesis. That's not to say there is no benefit, just that I've got little reason to assume the veracity of any specific benefit given the lack of replicability of studies in medicine.

 

[Cognisant]

Blacks are more at risk than whites. Women are more at risk than men.

Well that's not politically correct.

 

[Hadoblado]

No, what's politically correct is forcing parents who don't speak English to go through an additional layer of bureaucracy in order to not smother their kids in sunscreen while at daycare despite them being blacker than night and at much more risk of VDI than sunburn. //rant

 

[Cognisant]

My mental image of you working in daycare:

 

[washti]

Not funny.

 

[Hadoblado]

I found Arnie kinda funny :P

It can feel a bit like that sometimes.

My main frustration was with people doing what was easy because these conversations with parents were hard. It's easier to force sunscreen and hat on a child unnecessarily than it is to convince effectively mute parents to jump through bureaucratic hoops concerning unfamiliar meteorological abstractions. If that child is then harmed by this practice through VDI, this is over the course of years meaning there is no accountability.

Yes, I'm a pain in the arse to work with. I'm out now though. Simultaneously sad and freeing.

 

[Cognisant]

If you're bringing evidence to the table and the other party isn't listening you're not the one being a pain to work with.

Not funny.

Arnie's character in Kindergarten Cop was initially a fish out of water, a hard-boiled cop going undercover in a traditionally female dominated occupation, but he ended up being a great teacher because he adapted to the environment and brought his own strengths to the role.

I'm not making fun of Hado, I'm complimenting him, although I see how you could get that impression if you haven't seen the movie.

Also that picture looks vaguely similar to his avatar which I find amusing because I'm easily amused like that

 

[washti]

Ok silly ppl.

 

[Hadoblado]

I have to go back on my earlier promise to post the essay, the topic is still live for many students and I'd get in trouble if it was linked back to me.

 

[The Gopher]

From memory (and in Australia) you only need like 5min of direct sunlight a day, a deficiency really only occurs in people who aren't getting any sun at all like those in the arctic, submariners or night shift workers.

UV is a serious problem in Australia

The highest rate of melanoma skin cancers in the world

and yet I am still deficent.

 

[Hadoblado]

Where I live, during winter, even people that spend 4+ hours outside a day (which is rare) are 45% VDI. Supplementation is required down here. Diet can help, but it's in such small quantities that unless you're eating fish every day you're still going to need vitamins.

Tasmania is worse than the rest of Australia, but Australia still has big problems in this regard, especially during Winter and Spring. I'm not sure how bad it is where you guys live though.

 

[birdsnestfern]

Planetary K-index | NOAA / NWS Space Weather Prediction Center

www.swpc.noaa.gov

If you feel fatigued or have top of head headaches, its because Geomagnetic storms are extremely high today 10/3 and tomorrow 10/4. Hydrate and take electrolytes like coconut water.

 

[birdsnestfern]

Only watch if you are into super detailed information but basically, Vitamin D is a hormone chemical that affects every part of your body in different ways. You have to take D3 with K2 in order for it to help you. You also need to take A, B, C, D and Minerals to help you go into deep sleep which is what helps repair your body at night. If you do not have enough Vitamin D and aren't taking it at the same time with the other vitamins, it won't work right.
I have sleep apnea and so I found this interesting, but I'm watching it in 15 minute increments because its a lot to listen to. She says 1000 mg of D3 with K2 is about the right dosage to take. You need Pantothenic acid (B5) as well, but its best to take B complex 100 because you have to take ALL types of B to make them efficient as well, including B12. So take all those vitamins in the morning together. (A, B complex, B12, C, D3, K2, Pantothenic Acid 100 mg max). Too much pantothenic acid can cause a bunch of bad effects so keep it to 100mg). Monitor your D levels often (although I'm not sure how to do that yet).

 

[birdsnestfern]

Remember to take your vitamin D if you aren't getting enough sunlight.

 

[ZenRaiden]

It costs 10 euro in my country to get D levels checked in a lab by general practitioner.
I started dosing first time D3 alone and had some sun exposure, I had overall high level of vit D3, but I was taking 10000 UI a day or 2000 UI minimum a day.
I now got my levels checked few months ago again, and its below the norm, so I am starting to take D3 again.

I think the recommended doses are 3000 or 2000 UI which is barely enough to stave of rickets.

Foods rich in D3 will not cover deficits, they can only help you maintain your levels, but once you have deficit supplementing is the only way to get back. D3 accumulates over time.

Generally speaking vit D3 is non toxic as far as science research goes, but it can lead to calcification of pituitary and other problems if you overdoes too much.
Overdosing is near impossible though.

If you want healthy levels of D3 and you have zero sun exposure this summer you can instantly start taking 6000 UI a day safely, but consult your gene in the bottle.

 

[birdsnestfern]

Tamarind juice or paste helps decalcify the pituitary, helps improve digestion, has antioxidants that reduce inflammation, infection, reduces cholesterol, helps your skin rejuvinate after pollution or sun exposure, clears blemishes, hydrates skin, anti aging, prevents malaria, and other fevers from bacteria, and a bunch of other health benefits. Just look for a cellophane package in the Mexican section of your store. Boil the cracked/peeled sticky inner pods for ten minutes, cool, squeeze in your palm keeping the seeds and long fibers in the palm, discard those, then strain and use the sticky paste in your drink.
Pour the strained liquid over ice, add a little sugar and voila, very tasty tamarind juice.
(Agua Fresca its called).

Also, tamarind pods will make your intuitive brain work once you've decalcified the pituitary.
Try to drink it in the Summer when its hot - its like iced tea, but its got a unique sour taste that is refreshing and like nothing else you've tasted.