Sticky-situation...any advice?

[moody]

How can you help someone realize that they aren't as good at something as they think they are?

I know, normally it's best not to touch these things with a ten-foot-pole...but it's a unique situation:

A while back, I played for one of my fellow small-ensemble-members' (member A) studio class. (i.e, we play a piece in front of the professor and get feedback from the rest of the studio and critiqued by the professor). I left right after, but another one of our esemble member's (member B) ended up staying and saw a friend of mine perform. Later at a rehearsal, member A said in to member B (in reference of my friend's performance), "I'm sorry you had to watch that. We all think the professor has kind of given up on her."

I was a bit shocked at that comment... I later asked member A about that, and they said that my friend doesn't listen well to the critiques (always has an explanation for a mistake...), is never really prepared, and hasn't grown at all. The professor isn't the type to ever show any frustration or become more aggressive, so I don't think my friend realizes how she appears or how much she incidentally ignores because she gets frustrated with her mistakes.

This friend was home-schooled all of high school because they got severely bullied in middle school, and has mental health issues they she takes medication for. It's very easy to have false-misconceptions of your skills and appearance when you've been that sheltered. I feel really bad that no one's been been straight with her about her progress; most people assume you know what your doing and aren't all that serious. She involves herself in too many outside activities and doesn't know how to respond to her one-on-one instruction or self-assess without putting herself down.

I know it's not my job to make someone "come to jesus," but I worry that there will be some major catastrophy in her life later on, all because she wasn't aware of what she's doing now.

...help?

 

[ZenRaiden]

Who is B and who is A? Why do feel feedback is necessary and why not just give some feedback and see what happens?

 

[Ex-User (14663)]

tell her that you care about her and because you care about her you want her to know that if she aspires to be any good in music she should work harder. Just don’t say it like you know everything and she doesn’t; be a bit humble about it. I don’t know about you but when I find out that a supposed friend didn’t tell me some crucial thing like that I no longer consider them a real friend. It’s not pleasant, but that’s what real friends should do.

 

[Cognisant]

Host a dinner party.

 

[moody]

Who is B and who is A? Why do feel feedback is necessary and why not just give some feedback and see what happens?

B and A are members of the chamber ensemble I played in. Feedback is necessary because that's what you pay for when you take lessons from someone, and studio classes usually encourage peers to also give some input. I have a very different schedule, so I'd not heard (in person) her perform. It would be a bit random and strange for me to hunt her down and tell her to play for me so I could critique her playing.

 

[moody]

tell her that you care about her and because you care about her you want her to know that if she aspires to be any good in music she should work harder. Just don’t say it like you know everything and she doesn’t; be a bit humble about it. I don’t know about you but when I find out that a supposed friend didn’t tell me some crucial thing like that I no longer consider them a real friend. It’s not pleasant, but that’s what real friends should do.

You're right. Do you think it would be a good idea to broach it by talking about time management and schedules? I've already tired the angle of using myself as an example and talking about how I've learned to better listen to my teacher. This didn't invoke any self-reflection, as she responded "That sucks, I'm sorry you've had to deal with that; my teach is so nice and encouraging!"

I just can't outright tell her what her studio-mate said about her. If someone from my studio thought that of me, I wouldn't want to know it. We spend so much of our time performing for our studio-members and working with them that it would be very difficult to know they thought so little of you. It's not that they're mean people, nor are their opinions immovable, but there's a reason they refrain from being that bluntly honest.

 

[moody]

Host a dinner party.

You, Cognisant, are one funny person. I don't know enough people to host anything, nor do I have enough space. I do bake things, though, so I suppose that would be a good idea. Make cookies to soften the blow of telling someone that they're not going anywhere.

 

[Cognisant]

It is important to always try new things.

 

[Marbles]

I have the impression that when friends critique each other, "trying to help", it is usually power struggle. You seem to genuinely want to help your friend, and invest a lot of time, thought and energy into doing so. That is touching. If she could just see that, I think she might be open to your suggestions without feeling attacked. But you're an INTP, so your true emotions might be hard to read. Based on your description of your friend, being honest and direct sounds risky.

Perhaps you could converse with her about practice in general (just chitchat, I guess you musicians do that?), and if she mentions something she wants to get better at, you could offer to help her practice that? And generally cultivate the idea together that becoming a musician is about noticing your weaknesses and working on them. I watch a youtube channel by two violinists: https://www.youtube.com/user/twosetviolin
They really cultivate that being a musician is about hard practice, not innate talent. I imagine that if I were a musician, watching that channel would take the psychological edge off being in a competitive, musical environment, and motivate me to just practice hard.

 

[moody]

It is important to always try new things.

I'll sit on in. Maybe in 10 years I'll be done mulling it over, and try it out.

 

[moody]

I have the impression that when friends critique each other, "trying to help", it is usually power struggle.

Yes, exactly! It can be really hard to be honest, because I have to worry about about not coming across as competitive.

I have the impression that when friends critique each other, "trying to help", it is usually power struggle. You seem to genuinely want to help your friend, and invest a lot of time, thought and energy into doing so. That is touching. If she could just see that, I think she might be open to your suggestions without feeling attacked. But you're an INTP, so your true emotions might be hard to read. Based on your description of your friend, being honest and direct sounds risky.

Yeah, I think she knows me well enough to know I'm sincere, and not trying to be a jerk. I'm mainly concerned with finding a way to broach the subject, and help her form a better understanding of where she's at and how she's progressing.

I've been told that I'm very hard to read. Friends of mine have told me that I intimidated them when we first met (which is frankly rediculous, considering my physical appearance), and teachers think I'm defiant a lot. Doesn't exactly help my situation.

Perhaps you could converse with her about practice in general (just chitchat, I guess you musicians do that?), and if she mentions something she wants to get better at, you could offer to help her practice that? And generally cultivate the idea together that becoming a musician is about noticing your weaknesses and working on them. I watch a youtube channel by two violinists: https://www.youtube.com/user/twosetviolin
They really cultivate that being a musician is about hard practice, not innate talent. I imagine that if I were a musician, watching that channel would take the psychological edge off being in a competitive, musical environment, and motivate me to just practice hard.

Ah yes, twoset; the spam of my youtube. I can't believe how spot on they were with their MBTI-musician stereotypes....I do exactly what the INTP does. It's the bane of my every practice (how do they know?!)

My life, at any given time, can be summed up in these four works: I need to practice. Like right now, I really need to practice. I already got in some hours, but it's never enough. (sigh). It's MORE stressful. This is why efficient practice techniques are critical, otherwise you never progress. Logging in the hours is only part of it, and I've gotten the gist that she has problems in both efficient practicing and putting enough time into it. (She overextends herself too much with other things).

 

[Minuend]

You feel bad because you think her ignorance is the only source of her problems. That if only someone told her in a nice way, she'd change entirely and become better. Which is natural, because that's what you would do. So you think she is like that as well. Some individuals are more or less incapable of taking critique, and they function in a way where they are never wrong or where they are never understood. Some people just wont get better or get a better life by someone telling them why they are bad. I suspect that's the case here. Her perception of things go way beyond someone being able to tell her what she does wrong.

Also, I'm pretty sure she will become hostile towards you if you bring this up.

 

[Tenacity]

How can you help someone realize that they aren't as good at something as they think they are?

I know, normally it's best not to touch these things with a ten-foot-pole...but it's a unique situation:

A while back, I played for one of my fellow small-ensemble-members' (member A) studio class. (i.e, we play a piece in front of the professor and get feedback from the rest of the studio and critiqued by the professor). I left right after, but another one of our esemble member's (member B) ended up staying and saw a friend of mine perform. Later at a rehearsal, member A said in to member B (in reference of my friend's performance), "I'm sorry you had to watch that. We all think the professor has kind of given up on her."

I was a bit shocked at that comment... I later asked member A about that, and they said that my friend doesn't listen well to the critiques (always has an explanation for a mistake...), is never really prepared, and hasn't grown at all. The professor isn't the type to ever show any frustration or become more aggressive, so I don't think my friend realizes how she appears or how much she incidentally ignores because she gets frustrated with her mistakes.

This friend was home-schooled all of high school because they got severely bullied in middle school, and has mental health issues they she takes medication for. It's very easy to have false-misconceptions of your skills and appearance when you've been that sheltered. I feel really bad that no one's been been straight with her about her progress; most people assume you know what your doing and aren't all that serious. She involves herself in too many outside activities and doesn't know how to respond to her one-on-one instruction or self-assess without putting herself down.

I know it's not my job to make someone "come to jesus," but I worry that there will be some major catastrophy in her life later on, all because she wasn't aware of what she's doing now.

...help?

It's simple. Compliment sandwich. I've lead teams enough to have to do this to inspire performance improvement in teams of varying sizes and with a huge diversity of individuals. Works every time, and also helps me realize that there is more to the "flaw" itself, also. It enables you to think rationally and positively as well. For every critique you have, you'll see that there are two positives, or at least one positive. It's how you make the world a better place while getting the change you desire

This is what a compliment sandwich entails:
Start the conversation with something positive (or, small talk and then the positive comment), then lead into the piece of feedback on how the person can improve, then end with something else positive.

Also, I think that is really sweet that you are considerate for someone else's well-being in that way. You're awesome! (In the chance that things don't play out as intended, to some extent it was the thought that counted. However, I think you'll have a good shot, especially if no one else is taking initiative!)

 

[Marbles]

Ah yes, twoset; the spam of my youtube. I can't believe how spot on they were with their MBTI-musician stereotypes....I do exactly what the INTP does. It's the bane of my every practice (how do they know?!)

Aww, yeah, I saw that video! I play the guitar (sort of), and I do that too! Spend way too much time listening to the overtones of my acoustics, wondering if I can find a good way to incorporate them in music - which is ridiculous, considering I can barely play :P Twoset made a comment saying one of them is INTP (I dunno which of them is which :P ). I guess they've got the inside scoop on us.

My life, at any given time, can be summed up in these four works: I need to practice. Like right now, I really need to practice. I already got in some hours, but it's never enough. (sigh). It's MORE stressful. This is why efficient practice techniques are critical, otherwise you never progress. Logging in the hours is only part of it, and I've gotten the gist that she has problems in both efficient practicing and putting enough time into it. (She overextends herself too much with other things).

Urgh, I can relate to your friend. I tend to be so perfectionist and scatter-minded that I don't really get around to practice much. Right now I have an infection on my vocal chords, which I am using as an excuse to not touch the guitar. What's the point in playing if I can't practice vocals at the same time?

Sorry about the late reply, I haven't been around here much for some days.
Let us know how things work out