Stardew Valley

[Cognisant]

I played this over the long Ishtar weekend and I'm now at the point of automating my farm with sprinklers, I'm in winter of the first year, by winter of the second year I will likely have multiple barns full of kegs making high quality ancient fruit wine, supplied by automated greenhouses.

In terms of making money this is where the game ends.

But what if it didn't, I mean if my little farm starts making millions if not billions of <whatever currency it is> shouldn't that attract attention? I imagine if the game had another stage it would be building fences topped with razor wire, hiring guards, setting up searchlights and guard towers, creating machine gun emplacements and anti-aircraft guns, moving the now totally hydroponic farming operation progressively deeper underground to protect it from artillery strikes.

I'll need to fight back from my armoured bunker, maybe some sort of drone launching system, then ICBM missile silos, until eventually I'm sending out humanoid infiltrator robots to quell the last of the resistance.

Yes I can see it now, I will rule the world, that is until Abigail shoots me in the back and destroys it all because she no longer recognises the slightly nerdy farmer boy that sought her attention with sweet peas all those summers ago.

 

[Cognisant]

This has inspired a thought experiment, imagine if you will that there's some sort of implant you could have installed in you brain that's preloaded with a very very clever AI. Now this AI will control you, just like how in a video game the player has complete control of the choices and actions the character makes. Now here's the important thing, you can stop this at any time and take back control of your life, this is your autopilot, you are in complete control of it and the control it has over you is only the control you've given it.

But here's the thing, it's much better at being you than you are, while the AI is in control you will do better at work, you'll have better relationships, you'll have regular exercise, you'll cook & eat healthy food, the AI will live your life to its absolute fullest and you'll be there, experiencing it all, but only as an observer.

You can't rapidly switch back and forth, you make the decision at the start of each day to either be in control or on autopilot (I'm revising my earlier statement) the point of this thought experiment is that you have to make that choice, you have to choose to either be your hopelessly flawed self, or a perfect observer.

What would you choose?

 

[Seteleechete]

What would you choose?

I have had a similar coundry but with mind sharing with a "better" person than me. Mostly in that case I'd be happy to stand back and just communicate with this person(assuming we get along).

As for this AI situation... Well there are just sooo many variables and details to this situation that could sway my decision one way or another so I can't really give you an answer.

 

[ummidk]

This has inspired a thought experiment, imagine if you will that there's some sort of implant you could have installed in you brain that's preloaded with a very very clever AI. Now this AI will control you, just like how in a video game the player has complete control of the choices and actions the character makes. Now here's the important thing, you can stop this at any time and take back control of your life, this is your autopilot, you are in complete control of it and the control it has over you is only the control you've given it.

But here's the thing, it's much better at being you than you are, while the AI is in control you will do better at work, you'll have better relationships, you'll have regular exercise, you'll cook & eat healthy food, the AI will live your life to its absolute fullest and you'll be there, experiencing it all, but only as an observer.

You can't rapidly switch back and forth, you make the decision at the start of each day to either be in control or on autopilot (I'm revising my earlier statement) the point of this thought experiment is that you have to make that choice, you have to choose to either be your hopelessly flawed self, or a perfect observer.

What would you choose?

I'd choose to be imperfect and flawed, not even close. What's the point of observing when you are no longer living?

 

[Cognisant]

I have had a similar coundry but with mind sharing with a "better" person than me. Mostly in that case I'd be happy to stand back and just communicate with this person(assuming we get along).

No communication, it's like a plane's autopilot, it may be using your body to speak and dance and be charismatic but it's (for the sake of the thought experiment ignoring functional equivalence) a philosophical zombie, there's no consciousness just really good scripting.

 

[Seteleechete]

No communication, it's like a plane's autopilot, it may be using your body to speak and dance and be charismatic but it's (for the sake of the thought experiment ignoring functional equivalence) a philosophical zombie, there's no consciousness just really good scripting.

Well the biggest benefit I see is using it on particularly important days/using it to learn skills/using it if you are in a lot a trouble. Basically renting your body for the abstract payment rather than just "observing" another life in the back of it's head. If I wanted a shitty reality show I'd turn on the TV.

 

[Teax]

Watching an AI control the body and "do better" does not have the same mental effect as overcoming the challenges yourself. Because, experience is the mental response to observing consequences of your own actions. That's why this is false advertising:

..... and you'll be there, experiencing it all, .....

It's the reason I always believed computer games are superior to movies and books in terms of immersion entertainment. (bait)

So, the AI could only be called "better at being me" if the things the AI does were the things that define me. Doing better at work, better relationships, these are all just results. Anyone who has/values his inner world more than just results will turn off the AI.

I'll ignore the logistical issue of an AI that is better/faster at reading than you, not giving you enough time to actually read what your "shared" eyes are looking at

 

[Cognisant]

It's a thought experiment and the outcome so far seems to be that people value their own self determination enough that they (yourself, Seteleechete and ummidk) are willing to accept your imperfection even if you didn't have to, isn't that nice to know?

Personally though I'm torn, I do greatly value my self determination but at the same time I have a nihilistic sensibility reminding me that my sense of self really isn't as important as I might like to think it is. To put it another way if such hypothetical technology existed those that gave up their self determination in exchange for more efficient choices would be undoubtedly fitter in a Darwinian sense.

In a few generations the self determinists would likely become a fringe minority, possibly motivated to radicalism as the impending extinction of the creed becomes apparent.

 

[Seteleechete]

Well, it's important to me because of my "feelings" and "emotions". Frankly what is actually most efficient or viable in reality comes in second place to maintaining my preferred mental state(as does my survival).

Though I would argue that doing what you want(within means) is the most efficient and viable option in regards to yourself. You are regarding this from the perspective of the group rather than the self which is why the option seems more acceptable to you.

 

[Cognisant]

No I'm talking about individually optimal choices, although often choosing to be uncooperative is a sub-optimal choice so the non-determinists would likely be more successful both as individuals and as a group.

There's many occasions where my I make sub-optimal choices because I want to, for example drinking alcohol and playing videogames are activities that I partake of because I enjoy them despite them being clearly far less optimal than drinking water and going for a jog.

 

[Seteleechete]

And I am trying to argue they aren't necessarily less optimal by the simple fact that you want to make them and you enjoy them... Ye, that argument sounded weak even to me.

Okay, I agree I simply value "self determination" as you call it over optimisation. And such an evaluation can be individualistic.

 

[Teax]

I do greatly value my self determination but at the same time I have a nihilistic sensibility reminding me that my sense of self really isn't as important as I might like to think it is

yet, you'd be trusting your AI to perform more "optimally", a judgment based on your own perception, which is based on your own interpretation of reality. Therefore by choosing the AI, you are by extension evaluating your sense of self-reality as the most important thing.

My own nihilism tells me that any point of reference I might use to interpret and judge reality is unfounded. Immersion experience is the only thing that can be taken at face-value, and the only way to get it (by definition) is through self-determination.

those that gave up their self determination in exchange for more efficient choices would be undoubtedly fitter in a Darwinian sense

I doubt that. In a Darwinian sense, those who procreate are fitter. If the AI really always chooses the more healthy option, it will probably be unattractive to self-determinists, nor will it want to mingle too much with self-determinists. So these two people will eventually diverge and form two parallel cultures, until someone decides to wage war. At which point the AI people might win, being fitter and all.

I cannot help but wonder if not going for a jog might give the self-determinists an edge of intelligence, or if they will just waste that time watching old reruns...

 

[peoplesuck]

I would allow it to handle tedious things. I wouldn't give it control for entire days. however if it could "download" information(massive amounts of non-stop research) that i would retain, i would be for this.

 

[Anktark]

No AI can procrastinate better than I do. It might pretend, but deep down inside it will know it is just a poseur.

On serious note, an AI like that could be useful as training wheels, but over longer periods it would make me miserable. Essentially, such AI would turn you into a vegetable.


Nice to see you guys stayed on the original topic