• OK, it's on.
  • Please note that many, many Email Addresses used for spam, are not accepted at registration. Select a respectable Free email.
  • Done now. Domine miserere nobis.

Split from trolley problem: The value of HR testing

Hadoblado

think again losers
Local time
Tomorrow 6:13 AM
Joined
Mar 17, 2011
Messages
7,065
---
This is like when I started work at a company and they made us draw a pig. Then based on the way the pig was drawn and where it was located on the page, they predicted how we'd suit their company environment. Dumb.

Oh oh oh really? Huh.

Okay so if you start in the top left you're conformist and unthinking.

If you start in the middle of the page this shows a preference for leaving your options open. You don't have a strong plan but you leave yourself room to figure it out as you go along (accepted limitations).

If you start in a corner (including the top left) but draw a really compact pig without fucking it up and needing more space you're habitually efficient and a competent planner.

If you draw it to a side and not a corner you're a fkn idiot and you're fired before you're hired you dopey dog-eyed stunt muppet.

Am I close?
 

redbaron

irony based lifeform
Local time
Tomorrow 7:43 AM
Joined
Jun 10, 2012
Messages
7,253
---
Location
69S 69E
Re: Trolley Problem

Oh oh oh really? Huh.

Okay so if you start in the top left you're conformist and unthinking.

If you start in the middle of the page this shows a preference for leaving your options open. You don't have a strong plan but you leave yourself room to figure it out as you go along (accepted limitations).

If you start in a corner (including the top left) but draw a really compact pig without fucking it up and needing more space you're habitually efficient and a competent planner.

If you draw it to a side and not a corner you're a fkn idiot and you're fired before you're hired you dopey dog-eyed stunt muppet.

Am I close?

It's not even that detailed. If it has big ears you're a good listener. Long curly tail means your love life is satisfying and if you draw it in the upper half you're an optimist, in the middle is a realist and in the lower half...means you're getting fired. There's more to it, every particular body-part has an arbitrary attribute assigned to it

All I know is that we spent about 45 minutes on this particular exercise and the presenter spent a lot of time analysing everyone's pigs and discussing it. At first I thought it was just a fun little exercise thrown in there by some human resources dipstick to cross some t's and dot some i's but no, the company really took their pig-drawings seriously.
 

Hadoblado

think again losers
Local time
Tomorrow 6:13 AM
Joined
Mar 17, 2011
Messages
7,065
---
Re: Trolley Problem

That's pretty disappointing.

My housemate is in HR and has learned a few of these kinds of tests that he shared with me.

One of them you chose from four shapes: triangle, square, circle, or a squiggly line.

Can't remember the specifics but:
Square:Nobody picks square. Nobody wants to be a square. I mean really?
Triangle: Dependable, practical
Circle: Patience? Wisdom or some shit.
Squiggly line: insecure about standing out. You think identifying with a squiggly line will make you seem interesting or creative. The door is over there.

Funny thing for me was that this affirmed a whole bunch of preconceived notions I had no clue that I held. How can you derive so much from someone's choice in shape? Right or wrong, it's insane to me that I actually already believed these things despite never having rated someone on shapes before or had any reason to think about it. :confused:
 

redbaron

irony based lifeform
Local time
Tomorrow 7:43 AM
Joined
Jun 10, 2012
Messages
7,253
---
Location
69S 69E
Re: Trolley Problem

What if you pick a different shape entirely?

I always annoyed people with these kinds of tests because I can't help but find a way to break them.
 

Grayman

Soul Shade
Local time
Today 12:43 PM
Joined
Jan 8, 2013
Messages
4,418
---
Location
You basement
Re: Trolley Problem

What if you pick a different shape entirely.

Then you have a problem with rules and have trouble following orders when you don't know the purpose of those orders or why you are doing it.
 

Hadoblado

think again losers
Local time
Tomorrow 6:13 AM
Joined
Mar 17, 2011
Messages
7,065
---
Re: Trolley Problem

What if you pick a different shape entirely?

I always annoyed people with these kinds of tests because I can't help but find a way to break them.

Why are you still here? The door is over there you squiggly bastard. Get out!
 

redbaron

irony based lifeform
Local time
Tomorrow 7:43 AM
Joined
Jun 10, 2012
Messages
7,253
---
Location
69S 69E
Re: Trolley Problem

=|
 

Polaris

Prolific Member
Local time
Today 9:43 AM
Joined
Oct 13, 2009
Messages
2,261
---
Re: Trolley Problem

Then you have a problem with rules and have trouble following orders when you don't know the purpose of those orders or why you are doing it.

...and that is precisely why RB ended up turning two limping businesses into the most successful businesses in the state at the age of 21, and that with no formal background - just through pure observation, intelligent assessment and creative solutions, deviating from the rules and systems that were dragging efficiency and productivity down. Employees went from dissatisfied and lazy to happy, inspired and high-performing individuals. The problems started when higher management started feeling threatened by RB's success. Why? Because RB has no patience for the stupidity of people who are so incompetent, they need to hide behind rigid rules and clunky systems in order to save their fragile egos.
 

redbaron

irony based lifeform
Local time
Tomorrow 7:43 AM
Joined
Jun 10, 2012
Messages
7,253
---
Location
69S 69E
Re: Trolley Problem

Then you have a problem with rules and have trouble following orders when you don't know the purpose of those orders or why you are doing it.

Suppose that were actually the case, how's that a problem?

Why should anyone do anything without having a clear purpose? People can't be reasonably expected to do things if they have no reason to do them.

Why am I picking a shape? What's the purpose of it? How is my choice of shape going to be used? Is this just a silly team-building exercise or is it going to serve as an actual profiling of my personality going forward in the workplace?

I don't need to know these answers to do the test, but they're important things to be communicated. Say the purpose of the test is that it's taken anonymously, and I'm not supposed to know why - fine. Then I won't do the test the way I'm supposed to - I'll draw a dodecahedron instead. Why?

Because as far as I'm concerned, drawing a shape on a page isn't a reasonable predictor of anyone's work habits, which should be assessed on their own individual merits - entirely independent of things like age, sex, race, method of pig-drawing, choice of 2dimensional shape or preference of tea or coffee. They're just arbitrary things that don't mean anything.

As Polaris said, I ran two businesses to company record-setting profits for 2 years straight - and I wasn't assessing people via traditional corporate methods of, "here, take this test from HR, invented by some psychology undergrad dickhead*, where I'll then proceed to tell you what your choice says about you. Just sit there and listen to the wisdom coming out of my mouth."

*not every psychology undergrad is a dickhead.
 

Hadoblado

think again losers
Local time
Tomorrow 6:13 AM
Joined
Mar 17, 2011
Messages
7,065
---
Re: Trolley Problem

I don't think that was an attack guys.

I think Grayman is just illustrating that administering the test leaves the employer with more information than if they had not. If it was a drudge job for example, they're looking for someone who can just do what they're told without complaining. They don't want creatives or thinkers, they just need busy work done without issue. When such things are used for jobs where creative and critical thought is a virtue, sure they might cost themselves the odd RB, but statistically they're probably saving more money just by screening ruthlessly for all the loose cannons that share cosmetic similarity to RB.

Obviously Grayman can speak for himself though.

Suppose that were actually the case, how's that a problem?

Why should anyone do anything without having a clear purpose?

As a person who has profound difficulty following orders without trying to optimise the process, I can attest that sometimes it just makes it difficult for the people in charge. They want as central an executive as possible. If you're applying to be part of that executive then all fine and good, but if you're not, even if your ideas are better, splitting and/or questioning the leadership can be worse than unquestioned but inefficient leadership.
 

redbaron

irony based lifeform
Local time
Tomorrow 7:43 AM
Joined
Jun 10, 2012
Messages
7,253
---
Location
69S 69E
if your ideas are better, splitting and/or questioning the leadership can be worse than unquestioned but inefficient leadership.

Not in my experience.
 

Hadoblado

think again losers
Local time
Tomorrow 6:13 AM
Joined
Mar 17, 2011
Messages
7,065
---
You have the benefit of apparently being the exception, where your critical ability and innovation outweighs the inherent inefficiency of decentralised leadership.

In my experience most people that question stuff aren't useful to the process they question. They like to feel like they're above a system, but express this by haphazardly criticizing it without suggesting anything better. And when they do suggest something they think is better, that thought is the product of a moment's exploration and is unlikely to compare to the amount of effort invested in the established process.
 

redbaron

irony based lifeform
Local time
Tomorrow 7:43 AM
Joined
Jun 10, 2012
Messages
7,253
---
Location
69S 69E
You could phrase it like that, I suppose. Not sure if I agree though.

You're right in saying that people who question often have a skewed perception of what's going to be an improvement. Just because the establishment is wrong, doesn't mean the different thing is right. However sometimes it actually is, but it's nearly impossible to filter improvements through the web off ass-kissing suckups in corporate.

Nearly every business I've seen has shitty systems in place and literally throws money and manpower down the drain. I've worked in a business where 5% of employees (myself included) are generating 80% of sales. Ended up making 200 people redundant because operating costs were outweighing sales.

The hilarious thing is that they could have cut about 80% of their operating costs at no detriment to total sales, but instead chose to stick it out with the friendly, non-threatening yes-men who stroked the egos (probably more in certain cases) of senior managers all the way up to the point that it crashed and burned.

This pattern repeats itself over and over in most businesses. Eventually the COO/CEO/MD/GM gets pissed off enough that they want to see a real change, but of course they don't want to have to put in any effort to see a meaningful change: they just want a scapegoat. So a few people get fired, department heads get shuffled around, a few of them roll and then they start off with a, "new and improved mission statement" that gets shoveled down everyone's throats.

By virtue of everyone being shit scared of losing their jobs, results improve for a few weeks, everyone pats themselves on the back and then the spiral starts again until finally 3 months later, another scapegoat and shake-up happens.

The other part is that it's fucking awful working in an environment of unquestioning inefficiency, where employees just sit around and grimace at every stupid procedure they're forced to follow and work in a shitty and uninspiring workplace. Talented individuals are lost and the people who move up are people who're too dumb to question or too lazy to look for a better job.

So you end up with all these companies full of dumb, lazy management staff. But how does this happen?

It's actually pretty easy.

You're CEO of a company, Mr. Black. A manager has just left and you need to promote a new one. You go through a list of people in the company, mostly faceless names who you barely interact with on any meaningful level. There's 10 candidates proposed, but you only know the names of 2 of them: who are you going to pick? You're pretty sure they're all retards just like the last guy, but better the devil you know right?

I'd rather have 10 employees questioning me at every turn than 10 employees who shutup and do what they're told.
 

Grayman

Soul Shade
Local time
Today 12:43 PM
Joined
Jan 8, 2013
Messages
4,418
---
Location
You basement
I don't care about him being or not being a rule breaker. I swear I just said something about RB that could be said about most people on this forum to some degree. Specially if they felt a need to break the test. That is how personality tests work. They define very generalized traits and then people treat them as if they are personal revelations.


@RB
Most people complain when they have to do things that don't make sense. The people who do what they are told when it doesn't make sense are hoping it will eventually make sense. This is more true with the things people care about and prioritize. You obviously care a lot about the success of this company and you caring contributes to you wanting to do things that would unfortunately create conflict. From what Polaris said about you, it would make sense that you would care a lot about this company. It isn't a judgement against you but if you care too much about something that isn't entirely yours to control you end up angry and disappointed because things will rarely go your way.

My work seems to be highly inefficient and asks me to do things that show that they don't know what they are doing at times. Personally, I don't care how they run their business. When I do start caring too much, conflict elevates but nothing gets resolved. I provide them a service the best I can and then I go home and build something of my own.

I am not as successful as you so maybe I am wrong about all of this but I am happy with how I am managing things for myself.
 

Ex-User (9086)

Prolific Member
Local time
Today 8:43 PM
Joined
Nov 21, 2013
Messages
4,758
---
In my experience most people that question stuff aren't useful to the process they question.
You're forgetting to distinguish the generic malcontents from the critical and constructive employees who are willing to put effort behind their desired changes, but who are otherwise restricted or ignored.
 

Hadoblado

think again losers
Local time
Tomorrow 6:13 AM
Joined
Mar 17, 2011
Messages
7,065
---
I'm not forgetting it. I'm deliberately not making the distinction because such knowledge does not accurately represent the conditions under which a potential employer is operating. Employing someone that cuts against flow is a risk that, yes, can in fact pay dividends. But most people in positions of power (such as employers) are of a mind set that maintains existent assets rather than establishing new ones. They want stability.

I'd like to consider myself part of that restricted and ignored class, but so would every other generic malcontent. Every idea of mine that has been implemented so far has been well received, but the bar is set low.
 

Ex-User (9086)

Prolific Member
Local time
Today 8:43 PM
Joined
Nov 21, 2013
Messages
4,758
---
You focus on the opposing perspective too much and you ignore your own position and side, probably because it's more familiar and therefore you find that you don't need to represent it fairly or accurately.

I sorta agree with your thinking, assuming I were to wear the shoes of yet another result-driven and potentially exploitative manager. Standardisation and following guidelines is key.
 

Hadoblado

think again losers
Local time
Tomorrow 6:13 AM
Joined
Mar 17, 2011
Messages
7,065
---
Yeah I'd agree with that. I selfish in conversation, only caring about my takeaway. Most of the time I don't bother providing a solid position myself either because I don't have one and I'm still making up my mind, or because I've represented it before and don't like the feeling of repeating myself even if it's to someone who hasn't heard it. Spot on. I should probably think about others more in this sense.

I've always had an oppositional bent though. If I were to put a positive spin on it I'd say I'm trying to balance the conversation. Which is also true.

hashtagentporsomething
 
Top Bottom