Yes. It simply takes superficial facts about history and interprets them in light of its own value system and various new-age concepts.
What's your goal with this thread? And why do you consider a book that essentially describes the foundations of mind control via LSD a favorite great work?
doesn't workAcademic Paper
Yes, though there's some debate as to how that progression actually happens and what it looks like on the individual level vs the societal level.I don't get it. Are we supposed to think that people progress through these stages? Cause it all seems pretty circumstantial, like you can be in many stages at once, depending on what you're doing, your own experiences, and what your mental focus is on.
it's almost like it's bullshit heyI don't get it. Are we supposed to think that people progress through these stages? Cause it all seems pretty circumstantial, like you can be in many stages at once, depending on what you're doing, your own experiences, and what your mental focus is on.
Yeah, kind of confused, so I'll just give my opinion on this. But I don't think Artsu is talking about classic psychosis if he's referencing "Dark night of the soul". The mental health system in the US isn't very good. They have a tendency to over-medicate and imprison people for acting out, regardless of the reasons or trauma they are dealing with; they don't want you to grow from your trauma, but come back to a normalized baseline of thinking. But I would think magical thinking belongs to stages 1 and 2, along with classical psychosis?it's almost like it's bullshit hey
it's such an arbitrary ordering of terms that appeals to people with tendency towards MaGiCaL ThInkinG because it puts all the MAgiCAl ThiNKinG at the top
any system that talks about The Next Step™ is very likely to exist as a means of monetising people's need for external validation
then it kind of makes sense as each next stage deals with some kind of breakdown of the previous one. Seems like thinking in terms of chaos is the goal though in the end. Although sounds very buddhist (not that there is necessarily anything wrong with that).If someone has reached a given stage, they're able to access all prior stages, like how in some video games you can go back to earlier levels.
Ok, well I'll run with your definition... the thing about being unable to distinguish between reality and fantasy, i.e. the lines between the psychological and the physical become blurred, this could be perceived as a cognitive development because prior to what I would term the awakening, fantasy did not exist on this level. The mind is receiving a level of stimulation of such strength that life is viewed through a series of new lenses. The person lives with one foot in this reality, and one foot in an alternate reality, and so experiences a kind of surrealness which leads to a) profound experiences, and b) deep learning. Think of it as being similar to drugs (hallucinogens). When tripping, the lines between the psychological and the physical become blurred, just like with psychosis, and I assume you're familiar with the purported benefits of appropriate hallucinogen use. And hallucinogens, are as we know, widely outlawed by the government. Both psychosis and hallucinogens get one in more intimate touch with one's unconscious, and there seems to be a general fear of this from authorities.how is psychosis 'higher' - being that it's defined as inability to perceive the different between reality and fantasy?
http://www.grof-holotropic-breathwork.net/profiles/blogs/socalled-schizophrenia-asSchizophrenia in fact is not a disease or ‘mental illness’, nor is it a hopeless condition. Schizophrenia is a brilliant condition… a personal ‘story’ which involves a natural and temporary self-organizing transformative process or crisis of transformation, a ‘psychospiritual crisis’ now known as ‘spiritual emergency’ . ‘Spiritual emergency’ is the term coined by psychiatrist Stanislav Grof to refer to the self-healing process which involves dissolution and removal of illusions and false beliefs which originate in the programming of social conditioning. This gives rise to aberrant thought complexes which prevent the person from making accurate evaluations for appropriate decision-making for effective social adaptation. In a period of spiritual emergency, the person instinctively surrenders to a spontaneous organismic process involving the temporary separation of thought and emotion (‘ego-loss’) which is necessary for the reassessment of their thoughts without having to deal with the emotional implications. The person undergoes a series of varying stages or ‘episodes’ and eventually learns to grow beyond fear based ego-consciousness, beyond cultural conditioning and the expectations of others to a higher consciousness state and the new level of awareness characteristic of self- transcendence or ‘ego-transcendence’. The state of ego-transcendence is characterized by an inner sense of emotional liberation which purifies and sharpens moral consciousness or ‘rational conscience’ … and therefore results in clarity and an accurate perception of reality… intuitive understanding or ‘intuition’.
Human intuition allows for the discovery of ideas and behaviors which increase the effectiveness of social adaptability… ‘Creativite intelligence’ is the defining characteristic of the human psyche or human personality i.e. ‘human nature’.
i've taken hallucinogens yesWhen tripping, the lines between the psychological and the physical become blurred, just like with psychosis, and I assume you're familiar with the purported benefits of appropriate hallucinogen use. And hallucinogens, are as we know, widely outlawed by the government. Both psychosis and hallucinogens get one in more intimate touch with one's unconscious, and there seems to be a general fear of this from authorities.
Yeah, there's a saying that goes something like "if you're not sure if something is incompetence or conspiracy, it's most likely incompetence". But, ya know, as a schizo it's far too tempting to claim "CONSPIRACY!!1".i don't see any reason to believe it's malicious as opposed to misguidedly protective
I'm almost certain that my psychotic experiences have, for the most part, been highly beneficial to me. However, I'm not sure that I know how to demonstrate this to other people. It might be a while before I'm able to.and no, schizophrenia is not brilliant. people can and do succeed in spite of it, but it's not 'brilliant'
even if i'm sceptical of such a claim, i'm fine with that sort of assertion since it's from the perspective of personal experience. conflating it to schizophrenia generally seems spurious though.Yeah, there's a saying that goes something like "if you're not sure if something is incompetence or conspiracy, it's most likely incompetence". But, ya know, as a schizo it's far too tempting to claim "CONSPIRACY!!1".
I'm almost certain that my psychotic experiences have, for the most part, been highly beneficial to me. However, I'm not sure that I know how to demonstrate this to other people. It might be a while before I'm able to.
Well, as I said, I think it applies to a subset of the population of those who experience psychosis. I doubt my assessment of my experiences wouldn't generalise to some significant number of others, especially given things like the spiritual emergence/emergency paradigm, which seems to paint the "disease" in a positive light (to those of whom that categorisation applies), as a kind of transformative and healing process.conflating it to schizophrenia generally seems spurious though.
You may have done "hallucinogens" (correct term is actually Psychedelic or Entheogen, thank you very much) but you clearly don't know shit. You didn't even read the link. You've no idea the history or potential of them. You're too scared, reasonably enough, to do the work. So just stay where you are boy and don't mess around with things you don't know about.i've taken hallucinogens yesWhen tripping, the lines between the psychological and the physical become blurred, just like with psychosis, and I assume you're familiar with the purported benefits of appropriate hallucinogen use. And hallucinogens, are as we know, widely outlawed by the government. Both psychosis and hallucinogens get one in more intimate touch with one's unconscious, and there seems to be a general fear of this from authorities.
but 'benefits' is stretching it a bit
government ruling on these things seems to stem a lot more from the fact that the drugs are very easy to use inappropriately and that in a lot of cases, that's what happens and the consequences are severe. we can argue that the government overreacts to this, but i really don't think there's anyone in a position of power thinking that by denying people hallucinogens, they're preventing people from getting into deeper touch with their unconscious and thereby (it seems this is being implied) maintaining power
they're over-protective and whenever i speak to people with strong opinions on why drugs are bad, that's been their reasoning. i don't see any reason to believe it's malicious as opposed to misguidedly protective
and no, schizophrenia is not brilliant. people can and do succeed in spite of it, but it's not 'brilliant'
people talk about 'undoing your social programming' as if this idea in itself isn't one they've received from a social connection to peers who are all about 'undoing your social programming'
it's just acculturation to a group that eschews typical patterns of socialisation, in favour of new ones. you can make the argument that it's a better form of socialisation, but you aren't 'undoing social programming' - you're just replacing it with a new one
if you interact with peers and people, if you read their works and opinions, if you socialise on the internet - you are being socially programmed. you can choose how and what you let yourself be acculturated to, and i think everyone should. but it's a misnomer to label it as diverging from socialisation entirely
The meds suck. It's made worse by the fact that for some people (e.g. myself) the medication is legally forced, so that if the person refuses to be medicated they'll be put in a psych ward and made to take the meds anyway.I wonder what proportion of problems associated with those with mental illness are due to medication?
I've certainly considered that that may be the case with me, but I mean, with models of thought like the spiritual emergency thing, which is made by people studying mental illness, not necessarily those going through it, it does seem reasonable to me to paint things in a positive light (although I do acknowledge some negative aspects that go along with it).i think that a lot of people who experience mental illnesses often resort to rationalizing their problems in a positive light as a coping mechanism, which is something you can only really assess case by case - but the majority of the time i hear that kind of assessment from someone diagnosed with a severe mental illness, it seems to be the case
Plz explain. I don't necessarily want to talk about it more, just want to know what you mean. I didn't do anything, was just trying to participate in discussion - and I will. I just want to do a good job.Hey. Pizzabeak.
If you want to participate in discourse, then participate.
Don't act like a toddler.
Spiral dynamics is used to trace the evolution of consciousness through history. Since the 60's, the leading frontiers of consciousness has been defined by "post modernism" and "individualism"; etc, as a result. So the modern world could want inclusion and diversity as well as relativism but can also tend toward the other extreme on the far right; i.e. "Donald Trump" and what the "Trumpocalypse" represents. So it's not just being open to new experiences, which could all segue into a new revolution.I believe I should point out that I do not aim to present Spiral Dynamics as an absolute truth. I only ask that this idea is entertained. Spiral Dynamics is still just a perspective, but everyone can extract the truth value to be found within.
I think Spiral Dynamics is worth serious consideration because it provides a reasonable and practical explanation for many problems in the world which are convoluted and divisive, based on prior explanations.
I would also like to point out that the motives you presume Spiral Dynamics exhibits are frankly, false. I do not believe myself to be at the top of a hierarchy. No stage in the spiral is "better" or "worse". Every stage is applicable and valid depending on the challenges of the environment. If one is lost in the wilderness and needs to focus on bare survival, then beige is the ideal stage. If one is attempting to solve a complex political issue, yellow would be a more viable mindset.
Let me provide some historical examples which may help you see the value of Spiral Dynamics.
Why is it that religious freedom, women's rights, and racial equality first occured in the Western World? Today, in most societies women are second-class citizens, and Western influence has failed to mitigate this issue. Religion is still the strongest force in society that isn't aroused by survival in the middle East and Africa.
Why is it that when the United States removes an authoritarian regime such as Iraq, Libya, Iran, etc. Religious Fundamentalists consistently gain popular support and install a new authoritative theocracy? People in this part of the world have difficulty accepting democracy and are consistently more receptive to a theocratic regime. Spiral Dynamics provides the explanation that these people are at stage Blue, therefore they value spiritual leadership and nationhood over freedom, democracy, and capitalism. For people in the Middle East, the most just and fair government is sharia law, because to them it's based on the Truth delivered from Allah.
Why is it that in continents like Africa, there has been very little if any cultural or technological development throughout human history until very recently? The same applies to the Americas and Australia.
Why did the Industrial Revolution occur in Western Countries (England, Belgium, Germany, United States, etc.) and not in China, Africa, or America? Why did the scientific revolution and the enlightenment occur in Western Europe and nowhere else? These ideas were exported from Europe all over the world, but why did Europe attain such success in the past 300 years while other civilizations lagged behind? There are two explanations for this occurence.
The first is that Europeans are genetically superior and have vastly superior intelligence, a theory that is disregarded by most of society today. The second is Spiral Dynamics. Western Europe was the first civilization to reach stage orange, which was due to many different variables from the environment. Guns, Germs, and Steel by Jared Diamond discusses many of these variables.
Spiral Dynamics can even explain the differing viewpoints on this thread.
Nobody can choose their level, it's due to environment and upbringing.
When two people are at different developmental levels, when one points something out the other simply will not see it.
What may be an obvious proposition to one stage may be irrational or even insane to another. But every stage is correct to an extent.
@Serac Your disdain towards religion, "New Agers" and what you consider to be irrational strongly suggests you are Stage Orange, which is not a bad thing, it's the most common stage among English speakers.
From this thread I see Stage 5's arguing with Stage 6 and possibly stage 7 as well. All intelligent individuals with sound reason, but are at different stages.
We just don't need the internet tough guy act. Especially when you're pulling rank on RB, who I happen to know is a Navy Seal.You may have done "hallucinogens" (correct term is actually Psychedelic or Entheogen, thank you very much) but you clearly don't know shit. You didn't even read the link. You've no idea the history or potential of them. You're too scared, reasonably enough, to do the work. So just stay where you are boy and don't mess around with things you don't know about.
Reality could be a simulation. LSD causes hysteria in those who haven't tried it. What, so you tried low doses once or twice? Doesn't seem like much in a lifetime of worshipping it.
Thanks. I agree.yeah that sucks artsu, i don't really think forced medication is reasonable unless people's lives or well-being is at risk. and even then it should be re-evaluated regularly
For me, I view it as an expanded perspective. Every experience I had (not sure about literally every, but generally) while psychotic was valuable in itself and also expanded my experience set to know more about how myself, people, the world function. I think I would have arrived at perhaps similar realisations anyway, but going through psychologically intense experiences helped with that.i'm not unreceptive to the idea that people who experience a mental illness grants them a unique perspective. by the nature of many of them, that's a given. different doesn't necessarily have to mean impaired or improved, but it does seem that the common theme of mental illness is that certain aspects will always be impaired. sometimes it's a trade-off and indicative of greater aptitude for specific things and difficulty with others (aspergers for e.g.)
Yeah I don't necessarily agree 100% with that quote, but the point is that it's a perspective that's out there. There are differing views from "debilitating and dangerous" to "brilliant" and there is truth to both sides, but ultimately the condition is not understood well enough to make any conclusive claims.i think it's intellectually dishonest to label a trade-off (best case scenario) as 'brilliant' on anything less than a case-by-case basis. and even then it's not really the brilliance of the illness, it's the brilliance of the individual with the illness. i don't think it's correct to equate the two