So I'm an INTP

[eNyce]

Hello everyone

I suffer from social anxiety, and although I manage to be a functioning member of society, it is really holding me back in certain aspects of my life. Although I have been suffering a while, it has only been over the last 6 months or that I am really beginning to analyse my conditioning trying to find out exactly why I act & respond the way I do.
I decided to see a psychologist to guide my self-exploration and recently found out that I'm INTP!

The stereotype (for lack of a better term) of an INTP really does describe my personality, certain aspects more so than others. I find that when I'm talking to someone (it can be anyone, someone I've known for 5 years or 5 days) I generally find myself thinking of the best thing to say and how to say it, to keep up a certain persona of myself rather than say what I am actually thinking. It is also generally hard to focus on what people are saying because while they are speaking, I'm worried about my body language and how I'm coming across. It's funny, because at the end of the day I really am not bothered by what any particular person thinks of me, but in that very moment my thoughts are completely consumed (unwillingly) with coming across a certain way!
I also find myself anticipating a response when talking. Like when a guy asks a girl to prom, the moment between asking and their response brings on a certain type of emotion.

I'm happy to be an INTP and don't want to seem as though I'm focusing on the negative aspects, because there are a lot of positives. I was wondering if any other INTPs have this same reaction, and if so how consumed are you with it? Is it conscious or unconscious? As far as I'm concerned, I can see myself doing it but am unable to control.
Has anyone had this same personality and been able to overcome and/or learn to accept and work with this habit?

 

[themirror]

[FONT=georgia, bookman old style, palatino linotype, book antiqua, palatino, trebuchet ms, helvetica, garamond, sans-serif, arial, verdana, avante garde, century gothic, comic sans ms, times, times new roman, serif]When there is no enemy within, the enemies outside cannot hurt you. -African Proverb

I'll give a fuller response tomorrow.
:smiley_emoticons_mr
[/FONT]

 

[catatonic]

Hello there, welcome.

I've no idea with your question..I'm not an INTP, but I believe you're e nyce person.

Spoiler

 

[Tony3d]

Up until I was in college I was always the 'quiet kid' in school that would sit by himself and not really talk to people a lot. Over the past 8 years I have been trying to slowly get more and more social, but only over the last 4 have I really had any success, but I am still far from where I want to be.

I think it would be much easier to just be lazy and let your Introverted Thinking side take over and be anti-social, but I don't like the idea of being alone all of the time. I want to be left alone 5 nights out of the week, but the other two I want to know someone out there cares that I am alive.

I don't know if it is because I was raised by my mom, and she is an ISFJ, but I share a lot of ISFJ traits such as wanting to feel needed every once in a while and stuff like that. It is never part of my primary thought process, but the feeling is definatly there. ISFJs do in fact share the same functions as us, just in a different order, so that could be a big part of it.




But anyways, I may be introverted by nature, but I have realised with my Ti and Ne that if I want to reach the goals I have, that it is illogical to be so.

So if I have to chose between my logic and my introversion, I am going to chose my logic. If it is illogical for me to be introverted and anti-social, then I must learn to be better at dealing with people and making small talk and eye contact and forming social bonds.




Honestly, at this point in my life I can pretty much talk to anyone. I can make people laugh and tell stories and get people to feel comfortable around me. I am currently studying further into body language and the science behind human interaction so I can have more of a strategic advantage over it.

I still have a long ways to go, and I am horrible in social scenes like bars and clubs and parties... I also feel guilty over approaching people that I don't know and don't have a reason to talk to, which I really need to get over.

 

[redbaron]

To answer your question, yes your behaviour is similar to mine but your thought process isn't. I'm guessing there's more, but I'd hardly consider your description to be a condition of social anxiety.

Or maybe I have social anxiety as well, but it hasn't held me back really. I'm successful, enjoy my work and I enjoy spending time with my friends. If it's with the right people, I enjoy going to bars and clubs. I know I can mingle with new people, while still having some familiar faces to mingle with. My friends actually think I'm a huge player, even though I go out about once a month.

Choosing my words in discussion to keep up a persona makes sense to me. I don't say what I think very often, simply because it will probably be misinterpreted or I don't know how to express it fully or concisely to avoid confusion. So I say only what I can express concisely, which makes discussion more productive(?) I don't know what you do, but I wouldn't consider this a form of anxiety unless you're actually anxious about it (kinda obvious, but the point I'm making is that I feel as though you're the one creating the anxiety with your judgement of the behaviour, I don't think your actual behaviour is anxious).

I'm also conscious of body language. I make sure I don't fold my arms, put hands in my pockets, and that I make eye-contact and when I do break it, I use another verbal/non-verbal cue to show I'm still listening even though I'm looking away. I think you'll find that probably a majority of people who work in a business type role will also make a concerted effort to present a particular type of demeanour. Doing it outside of a business setting does not mean anxiety though. I genuinely like to present a particular personality to others, so that they can feel comfortable (or uncomfortable depending who it is) talking to me.

I feel like your 'social anxiety' is more a product of your over-analysing. You're seeing anxiety in behaviour that is completely normal. And don't worry, I have trouble focussing on what people say too sometimes - people are fucking boring.

 

[INeedToPee]

dude, that second paragraph you wrote is exactly how i am.i don't know if you're in high school right now, but this:

Up until I was in college I was always the 'quiet kid' in school that would sit by himself and not really talk to people a lot.

is what happened to me too. i feel less anxious around people now.

how did this transformation happen? well i can't pinpoint it for you because i'm not 100% sure myself but like all things, being good at something comes with practice/experience. since we were never really interested in socializing like some other types are, we are behind. the same way some of the other types may be more prone to end up being technologically stupid, we are more prone than some other types to becoming socially stupid. however, that is not to say that they cannot become tech savvy, or that we cannot become friendly and social. anything can be learned. its the amount of experience.

another thing, don't fight that thought process you described in the second paragraph because you just can't. learn to embrace it. if you read what you wrote there, they are actually good traits because it shows that you are constantly keeping your image in check. however, don't take this too far and let it burden you. and understand that nothing/no one is perfect.

while typing this post, i realized that being comfortable with yourself is really important. i can't tell you how to do exactly how to do this but accept yourself for who you are, embrace it, and the not-give-a-fuck attitude will flow out naturally. (of course you still give a fuck but no one has to know that )

if there's anything you want to ask, feel free. i want to help

 

[Tony3d]

dude, that second paragraph you wrote is how did this transformation happen? well i can't pinpoint it for you because i'm not 100% sure myself but like all things, being good at something comes with practice/experience. since we were never really interested in socializing like some other types are, we are behind. the same way other types may be more technologically stupid, we are socially stupid. however, that is not to say that they cannot become tech savvy, or that we cannot become friendly and social. anything can be learned. its the amount of experience.

INTPs are good at understanding systems, so by the time you observe enough successfull and unsuccessfull conversations you start to recognize patterns and learn to adjust. It doesn't come natural to us to talk to people, but learning systems does.

The reason most INTPs don't learn it very fast is because they don't want to. They don't care about being sociable, so they don't bother to observe, and when they don't observe they don't build systems, and when they don't build systems they don't understand.

Though I am to the point where in order to push my social skills to the next level, I am reading all sorts of books and research on human interaction and body language and stuff.

Logically it is an immportant skill, and my logic will always come first over my introversion.

 

[VroumVroum]

Hello,

I am really beginning to analyse my conditioning trying to find out exactly why I act & respond the way I do.

Isn’t that the cause of the problem you’re trying to solve? You over analyse and feel you need to be better. I know I do

I share a lot of ISFJ traits such as wanting to feel needed every once in a while and stuff like that.

I feel proud when I am useful and people underline it, uncomfortable but proud.






Regarding social anxiety, I don’t like being around many people I don’t know. The worst thing to do is to isolate yourself. I did this and ended up sweating a lot in social situations.

 

[INeedToPee]

INTPs are good at understanding systems, so by the time you observe enough successfull and unsuccessfull conversations you start to recognize patterns and learn to adjust. It doesn't come natural to us to talk to people, but learning systems does.

The reason most INTPs don't learn it very fast is because they don't want to. They don't care about being sociable, so they don't bother to observe, and when they don't observe they don't build systems, and when they don't build systems they don't understand.

Though I am to the point where in order to push my social skills to the next level, I am reading all sorts of books and research on human interaction and body language and stuff.

Logically it is an immportant skill, and my logic will always come first over my introversion.

that makes sense. and now that i think about it, around the time i ended high school, i think i started making more of an effort to understand social behavior. around that time, i did WANT to be more sociable.

 

[own8ge]

How I as a person is being seen by others (My Persona) is the last priority I worry about. After all, I'm not some Se+Te douche bag so why should I?

-I might be thinking about it a little, but that then only would be when talking to elderly people. (I don't seem to connect with them)

But actually worry about it? I'm sure you have better things to wander about...

-Oh, and another reason why INTP's tend to learn certain aspects slowly is because those aspects are build on irrationality and feelings rather than logic. "It makes no sense! Fuck this."

Oh and social anxiety? Stop communicating with retards, you'll do fine. (I myself suffer from anxiety "disorder" as well)

 

[Tony3d]

How I as a person is being seen by others (My Persona) is the last priority I worry about. After all, I'm not some Se+Te douche bag so why should I?

-I might be thinking about it a little, but that then only would be when talking to elderly people. (I don't seem to connect with them)

But actually worry about it? I'm sure you have better things to wander about...

-Oh, and another reason why INTP's tend to learn certain aspects slowly is because those aspects are build on irrationality and feelings rather than logic. "It makes no sense! Fuck this."

Oh and social anxiety? Stop communicating with retards, you'll do fine. (I myself suffer from anxiety "disorder" as well)

If you are truly as Ti as you say you are, you would realise that it is illogical to not care at least a little bit about what other people think about you.

Certain people can be very valuable in the process of getting what you want or need. Some people just have interesting things you can learn from them. Some people have the ability to make your life a living hell if they do not like you (such as your boss).

So the only logical thing you can do is to care and try to improve what people think about you, simply because it is illogical to have a lot of people not liking you.



I don't sit around and worry about whether that person may or may not think I am a jerk, but I try to make the best strategic moves to line myself up with the best social connections to make my life better.

 

[Duxwing]

Social anxiety is a painful road, OP. I can't say that I've been there, but I entirely agree on the facet of Ti not being friendly with Fe: emotions make no sense, therefore, I ignore them. Yet sometimes I get so sick of being lonely that Ne and Fe stage a coup d'état and take what they need by force. Specifically, they override my logic and get me to talk to people, which, in moderation, can even warm my heart.

-Duxwing

 

[Inceptacon]

Yeah dude you're getting a lot of GREAT advice here, namely THIS:

#1 rule: Experience - practice makes perfect!



I agree. Practice, practice, and practice. Trial and error is the lot of every man.

There is nothing wrong with you. everyone is different, and you're a little extra different, but that is a good thing With that said, "They're just people, like you and me!" - Dante (Grandma's Boy)
You can't start to think of yourself as "broken" and everyone else "in working order," or vice versa. The more I have anthropologized, the more I see the vulnerability, if you will, not only in myself, but at every perceived level and in every vessel of fallen human existence
Also note: Nobody is perfect at socializing. there is no standard that you are below... everyone is shy! and the bold ones just have ego/daddy problems so stay away from them they're highly volatile...()
You may not realize it always, but you "communicate" with other human beings all the time... Even subconsciously! It's in your nature to be good at. it so let it flow. What I mean is, don't think, just trust your instincts.

Listen. you really should take full advantage of this advice, because it is coming from people like you, who prefer to be anti-social, so we've been there and suffered that. You really should nip this problem in the bud before you find yourself all alone and therefore crazy. If there is one thing that cripples a person, it is loneliness ...and in nearly every occupation social skills are a vital key to success. I think you'll soon learn to enjoy socializing, even in boring small talk, simply because there is so much to learn from a fellow being ...but only when one truly and honestly LISTENS to what the other person is saying, not just in their words, but in every tone, bodily movement, etc, etc.

I may sound overly optimistic and somehow confident here, but trust me, I've been in your shoes as a fellow Introvert. I still tend to dislike small talk and seem to make countless mistakes day to day in social situations. But the thing is, there is an art to listening that hardly anyone can fully take advantage of. Conversation is one of the best ways we can learn about the human situation, and the more you get comfortable listening - thinking about what someone is saying to you rather than what you look like or what you should say next - the more confidence you will gain.

If you can become a good listener, people truly will value your honest, unbiased INTP point of view and they will begin like you for who you are and cherish your presence in their lives. To conclude I want to emphasize one more time the only method for improvement in dealing with the overly self-critical beast that is social anxiety: Practice. Trial and error is the lot of mankind. Don't be afraid to fail, and you will do just fine.

 

[ObliviousGenius]

I'm also conscious of body language. I make sure I don't fold my arms, put hands in my pockets, and that I make eye-contact and when I do break it, I use another verbal/non-verbal cue to show I'm still listening even though I'm looking away. I think you'll find that probably a majority of people who work in a business type role will also make a concerted effort to present a particular type of demeanour. Doing it outside of a business setting does not mean anxiety though. I genuinely like to present a particular personality to others, so that they can feel comfortable (or uncomfortable depending who it is) talking to me.

I do the same thing because after a while, one just understands the behavior necessary in an ordinary conversations. I tend to stare instead of lack of eye contact so I occasionally look away to keep them comfortable. I also give a slight smile or serious face (depending on the conversation) and nod my head to show that I'm listening. It's just natural at this point. It's similar to my pre-programmed responses for when people talk to me sometimes.

The problem with INTPs is that we learn social cues slower. I'm 21 now and it's taken 5 years to catch up to the point where I can seamlessly (ok, close to seamlessly) blend in with other socialites. It just takes a fair amount of practice.

Unfortunately learning social skills is a trial and error processso be patient.

 

[Niclmaki]

I worked at a daycare for a year. I got in touch with my inner ESFJ. Of course it tired the hell out of me, but hey.

 

[own8ge]

If you are truly as Ti as you say you are, you would realise that it is illogical to not care at least a little bit about what other people think about you.

Certain people can be very valuable in the process of getting what you want or need. Some people just have interesting things you can learn from them. Some people have the ability to make your life a living hell if they do not like you (such as your boss).

So the only logical thing you can do is to care and try to improve what people think about you, simply because it is illogical to have a lot of people not liking you.



I don't sit around and worry about whether that person may or may not think I am a jerk, but I try to make the best strategic moves to line myself up with the best social connections to make my life better.

Yes, I forgot to mention that I myself worry a lot as well. But to control what others think of you, is rather lunatic; It can't be done. -As everything you will do to control it, has a high potential of making things worse.

Also, logic can be directed towards different things rather than to be liked. I'd say it's depended on your worldview.

 

[Tony3d]

Yes, I forgot to mention that I myself worry a lot as well. But to control what others think of you, is rather lunatic; It can't be done. -As everything you will do to control it, has a high potential of making things worse.

Also, logic can be directed towards different things rather than to be liked. I'd say it's depended on your worldview.

Wrong

 

[own8ge]

Wrong

Perhaps, I don't even think I agree with what I was saying.

 

[Arachnid]

INTPs are good at understanding systems, so by the time you observe enough successfull and unsuccessfull conversations you start to recognize patterns and learn to adjust. It doesn't come natural to us to talk to people, but learning systems does.

Though I am to the point where in order to push my social skills to the next level, I am reading all sorts of books and research on human interaction and body language and stuff.

Logically it is an immportant skill, and my logic will always come first over my introversion.

The biggest reason why INTPs struggle to socialize is BECAUSE they try to systematize it. I haven't met any successful socializers that have systematized what they do.

When I eventually decided to try to understand people on a more fundamental level, I went about it from a systems perspective and got very interested in evolutionary psychology, body language, and psychology research. I analyzed, analyzed, analyzed, and found myself at a place where I was better at analyzing social situations than all of my other friends, yet many of them had much more successful conversations with people!

I was confounded. A while later I got interested in reading theory on writing fiction and stumbled across a new way of approaching my understanding of people. Walking in their shoes. Simulate their mindset and reality as completely as you can. You try to get a "raw feed", as little editing and filtering as possible, and only use your analysis to help direct when stuck.

It is not useful to think about people in a mechanistic or analytical way because you completely bypass what the EXPERIENCE OF THE OTHER PERSON is really like!

If you never get to the point where you can understand their experience, you may still get to where you can interact more effectively because you analyzed to the point where you can know what would be the appropriate thing to do. You will still feel lonely and confused as to why, but you may say "evo psych..." to yourself and go along, as I did.

My intro to this was that I used to try to imagine myself as all of the different personality types to try to understand the different functions, and that helped a lot, but I still wasn't tapping into something pure, it still was very analytical.

It will feel different when you begin to try to see their mind and their experience.

Every person has a little story that they're telling themselves inside their head. INTPs might have a quieter story or they may see through their own story more effectively, but it's pausing to see that other persons story come to life in your mind, and watching what it would be like to live that story, with their collection of memories, ideas, experiences, dreams and fears, that will really make you feel like you are getting a better handle on this.

I cannot stress enough that if you don't ACTUALLY DO THE SIMULATION, you will not experience what I'm talking about. Similar to how you can't analyze your way through one of Einstein's thought experiments, but instead you have to actually hitch a ride on a light beam in your head to see what he saw.

 

[Arachnid]

Wrong

It is possible in small groups and 1-on-1, but once you have a large and diverse enough audience, you will have people that will have different opinions on what you do.

One person will see your strong body language and think of how their father stood like that and how great he was while he was alive. Another may think of how their midnight mugger stood over them similarly as he asked for their wallet.

That sort of thing is somewhat uncontrollable. It's like how some girls will say that they don't like a guys cologne because it reminds them of their exboyfriend, while others think it smells amazing.

There would still probably be an optimal way of working a situation if you were able to get all of the information. Some sort of maximization problem where you try to maximize based on least number of negative reactions or some other metric, but honestly, it just becomes an impossibly unwieldy problem.

Whether or not you are comfortable with large amounts of deception is another problem.

Also, people talk, so if you were to deceive people in 1-on-1 situations, eventually people may talk and realize you've been playing them all along.

 

[Procrastinating]

Iv'e been working at a newsagents for 3 years. Working in retail can really help you work on your people skills. It is really good for one-on-one. Particularly in a place like a newsagents were most of your customers are adults, which is good if you find teenagers especially difficult to talk to like I do (even though I am one!).

 

[Tony3d]

The biggest reason why INTPs struggle to socialize is BECAUSE they try to systematize it. I haven't met any successful socializers that have systematized what they do.

When I eventually decided to try to understand people on a more fundamental level, I went about it from a systems perspective and got very interested in evolutionary psychology, body language, and psychology research. I analyzed, analyzed, analyzed, and found myself at a place where I was better at analyzing social situations than all of my other friends, yet many of them had much more successful conversations with people!

I was confounded. A while later I got interested in reading theory on writing fiction and stumbled across a new way of approaching my understanding of people. Walking in their shoes. Simulate their mindset and reality as completely as you can. You try to get a "raw feed", as little editing and filtering as possible, and only use your analysis to help direct when stuck.

It is not useful to think about people in a mechanistic or analytical way because you completely bypass what the EXPERIENCE OF THE OTHER PERSON is really like!

If you never get to the point where you can understand their experience, you may still get to where you can interact more effectively because you analyzed to the point where you can know what would be the appropriate thing to do. You will still feel lonely and confused as to why, but you may say "evo psych..." to yourself and go along, as I did.

My intro to this was that I used to try to imagine myself as all of the different personality types to try to understand the different functions, and that helped a lot, but I still wasn't tapping into something pure, it still was very analytical.

It will feel different when you begin to try to see their mind and their experience.

Every person has a little story that they're telling themselves inside their head. INTPs might have a quieter story or they may see through their own story more effectively, but it's pausing to see that other persons story come to life in your mind, and watching what it would be like to live that story, with their collection of memories, ideas, experiences, dreams and fears, that will really make you feel like you are getting a better handle on this.

I cannot stress enough that if you don't ACTUALLY DO THE SIMULATION, you will not experience what I'm talking about. Similar to how you can't analyze your way through one of Einstein's thought experiments, but instead you have to actually hitch a ride on a light beam in your head to see what he saw.

We are intuiters, not sensors... The whole process you have explained should come natural to and INTP.

An INTP should not get stuck on observing the details of a social situation without seeing the bigger picture of the other person.

The way I see it, my Ne side sees the world with the eyes of a child. I see the world for the big picture and with understanding and compassion. My Ti side may be cold and logical like a computer, but when you look upon the world and gather all your variables and context with a childs eyes, like I beleive any true intuiter should, then the outcome of your logic will never be cold and detatched from the people around you.


So yes, I agree with what you are saying, I just personally think that your advice should be obvious to any Ne... But maybe that is just me, I am a pretty moderate Introvert and I times think I might almost be an ENTP, but I am very extream in using my Inuitive skills over my Sensing skills.

 

[Tony3d]

It is possible in small groups and 1-on-1, but once you have a large and diverse enough audience, you will have people that will have different opinions on what you do.

One person will see your strong body language and think of how their father stood like that and how great he was while he was alive. Another may think of how their midnight mugger stood over them similarly as he asked for their wallet.

That sort of thing is somewhat uncontrollable. It's like how some girls will say that they don't like a guys cologne because it reminds them of their exboyfriend, while others think it smells amazing.

There would still probably be an optimal way of working a situation if you were able to get all of the information. Some sort of maximization problem where you try to maximize based on least number of negative reactions or some other metric, but honestly, it just becomes an impossibly unwieldy problem.

Whether or not you are comfortable with large amounts of deception is another problem.

Also, people talk, so if you were to deceive people in 1-on-1 situations, eventually people may talk and realize you've been playing them all along.

There is no universal plan that works, you just observe and react accordingly. Any Ne should be able to improvise their plans based on seeing unexpected results. Just use that quick thinking that is the defining trait of INTPs and figure out why you are not getting the results you want and adjust to that with something else.

Just like a good chess player isn't one that just approaches with one strategy, but one that can addapt to the changing situation at hand and still come out victorious.

Adapting and coming up with new ideas, that is an INTPs strength, so use it.

 

[yogurtexpress]

I went through this. Smile, make eye contact, and you'll be alright.