Sick of your Pronouns

[Oblivious]

Zero wants to be referred to by "It",
not your human pronouns (he/she).

This is my official request (I guess).
​

I am of the opinion that referring to you as 'It' if you asked us to would be such an ostentatious affirmation of your individuality by virtue of the fact that no one else refers to each other that way, and as such signifies an even greater deference on the part of those willing to refer to you in this manner.

I personally use 'he/she' when I am referring to a person where I feel it is important to be clear that I am unclear about gender. I believe this is more appropriate that It, and yet fulfils your goal of gender neutrality.

And yet it may fall short since 'he/she' implies that you are either or... Which might not matter either way.

 

[Aiss]

Yes. It's not accidental; I do it that way intentionally because it resolves the issue of pronouns for unspecified gender, and also follows linguistic tradition.

Linguistic tradition? You mean, like in "Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen", for example? Traditionally, no one bothered with such a silly thing as questioning the use of pronouns excluding females, they didn't have any rights anyway.

The problem is, traditionally most of the things were spoken about either one or the other gender. In most serious and official contexts "he" was used, because they simply didn't apply to women. When both genders were being talked of, either "they" or "one" was used. It's only recently that laws etc. apply to each gender equally by default, but their phrasing - except in most official contexts where it's unacceptable (with few necessary exceptions) - did not change. In some languages the word "person" is feminine, and when it's being used for gender-neutrality, all pronouns referring to it are feminine as well. For example, "how would a person like you feel if her gender was disregarded"?

The above example is correct because in these languages, nouns have gender. But in English they do not, and I'd sooner write "if their gender was disregarded". It's used in official contexts after all, I don't think it's unknown.

BTW one could read your original statement as referring to men only (as in, specifying that it doesn't apply to females). And, since 0 mentioned 0's sex, we could assume your statement doesn't refer to 0. Therefore, it isn't necessarily 0's problem.

 

[Nicholas A. A. E.]

Yes, like in "Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen." I accept "man" (and certain derivatives) as having, among other senses, one sense which relates to all the human race. Are you saying there is something inherently wrong with that?

Linguistic tradition is not limited just to judicial matters. In many other languages of the world, the third-person plural masculine pronoun is used when referring to a mixed-sex group. It is true that English does not have gendered nouns - but I think the transplantation of the tradition is still preferable to "they," "he/she," "sie," etc., even if some of these have become nearly mainstream. It fits with the tradition of all-encompassing definitions of "man".

You couldn't really do that because context makes my meaning pretty clear.

If anyone wants me to clear out of this thread or something let me know, I don't want to be disruptive.

 

[shoeless]

i pretty much agree with you. i'm a chick, and i still say "to each his own". or whatever.

i dunno, if you want to be a feminazi, at least pick issues that are relevant. (i put that way blunter than i mean it, but seriously. i'm all for "equal rights" and shit, but are we really gonna get caught up in semantics with something like this?)

 

[Kuu]

what the hell?

 

[Zero]

Nic- Flipping: my request had nothing to do with something wrong. I made a request and it could be accepted or denied. Flipping is pretty much a denial, but it's not a straightforward denial. It's a very strong sense of there being something wrong for having asked the request in the first place. Several people felt that I had issues, that something was wrong for me to make that request or to think in the way that I do.

It's a vague denial, it's along the lines of an accusation and it almost goes into a tangent.

Moocow had a pretty strong flipping. Moocow knows what the problem is. Moocow said a lot about the problem, focused on it, made assumptions about INTPs in general. cyptonia also had a wrote flip.

Basically it sounds as if someone is trying to give you therapy.

It was somewhat influenced by "image", as I wrote before. But Image is a topic. Most people can discuss the topic without directly applying it to the poster. Applying it to the poster is a very particular, I would even say, defensive behavior. I personally would approach the topic, not the poster. I would say such results are pretty dramatic. I've made up my mind about it.

Everything after my "closing" post won't count for "analysis".

shoeless- True INTPs get boggled over semantics. Then again, so do INTJs. And I try not to get boggled over semantics, because I like literal meanings.

Anyway, semantics won't clear up anything. It'll be a matter of popularity. Considering the discomfort with such things culturally I don't think the change will take place. At least not in my lifetime, which might as well be never. There will never be (widespread) change in this area (of semantics), that's my current opinion.

 

[fullerene]

ok, that makes sense now. I thought you were just a little insane, when you exploded, and was gonna ignore it completely, but seeing how I/lots of other people flipped, that would probably piss me off too.

 

[cheese]

Because all known words already have a whole bunch of implied meaning, my suggestion would be to come up with a totally new pronoun.

I like the sound of "de". It rhymes with "he" and "she" but is neither. It also isn't used in any other context by itself, except as a prefix roughly correlating to negation - which is pretty much what you're trying to do with traditional gender pronouns and their associations.

The other ones I've seen used I don't like. "hir", "sie" and so on each take one of the distinguishing letters from a pronoun, whereas "de" takes the common letter ("e").

Possession could be denoted with "s", same as "it". Contraction with apostrophe "s", same again.

 

[Polaris]

Very interesting thread.

 

[Jesin]

The other ones I've seen used I don't like. "hir", "sie" and so on each take one of the distinguishing letters from a pronoun, whereas "de" takes the common letter ("e").

There are always "ze" and "zir", which I think some people on these forums already use.

 

[bluesquid]

It puts the lotion on its skin or else it gets the hose again.

YouTube- It Rubs The Lotion On It's Skin

 

[Zero]

L- I'm not sure where the explotion happened. Could you specify. Also, "the flipping" as I called it, was useful. It would be quite disappointing if the sole purpose of this thread was simply to get a yes or no. I expected there to be a reaction. Flipping is a valid reaction. It wasn't one I expected and it's a little offensive for others to determine there's something wrong with you and your viewpoint. Especially considering what they seem to think is wrong with your viewpoint. That aside, if reaction was a part of the purpose of the thread, or at the very least reaction provided some interesting results that should be analyzed/considered, then they are valid.

I decided that, ultimately, the reaction was more important than the request.

Cheese, In writing I actually do use a different pronoun to speak of a character.

bluesquid, Wow, that's a weird/interesting music video. I think the dog.. . is the weirdest part... It just seems likes... if everything should be weird... why is there a normal dog? It's just... a poodle. Is it symbolic?

The person has AIS?

The character in Afterschool Nightmare had the same sort of condition. Though I think it was decided she was a very flat chested and tall female.

 

[cheese]

Cheese, In writing I actually do use a different pronoun to speak of a character that is both. The character him/herself sees no inherent difference in meaning between the pronouns and switches them frequently.
The story I have him/her in is in third person limited, but while focused on that person the sentences in regards to him/her are like this:
"She gathered what few things he had and quietly escaped the room."

The she and he in this sentence apply to the same person. It's fun to write and confusing as hell to read XD.

That's some pretty nasty karma you're building up.

 

[Zero]

Karma? I don't think so... It's not something I'm going to release upon the public. Heh, well considering that I guess I shouldn't have mentioned it. It's all really metaphorical, which I'm not terribly good at. It's quite a mess. Heh Heh.

 

[Polaris]

Would you consider doing a poll, Zero? It would be interesting to see some numbers. You could have several options, such as "OK, no worries, I accept your request", "I accept your request, although with reservations", "I don't accept, as it makes me too uncomfortable", and "I don't accept, because I don't care what you want".

That music video reminds me of something out of a David Lynch movie, by the way, I quite like it.

:smiley_emoticons_mr

 

[Jesin]

I'm going with "ze", by the way. I'm just not comfortable calling people "it" because it can be dehumanizing, and it makes me feel like I'm not treating them as people.

 

[Zero]

Polaris, That's a great idea. I think I will do that. However, I'm considering starting a new thread, because it seems to me a few people have become upset over this?

I didn't dislike the music video. I had to watch it again to get it. Man, that's creepy. It reminds me of that movie with that girl who psychologically tortures some guy she thinks is a pedophile. It's the same girl who plays is Juno. I can't remember what it was called. I don't know why, considering the horror movies and such I've seen I would think that's like this music video. I mean I could say the Rocky Horror Picture Show is more like the video, but Dr. Frank-N-Furter isn't really murderous, minus one person. But plus Rocky.

 

[Cavallier]

Silence of the Lambs is creepy.

I'll just vote now: Eh, whatever makes you happy. I'm easy.

 

[Zero]

I never saw Silence of the Lambs. I should see it.

It seems I should make the poll then? I don't know if I can still create it in this thread. ...

*Well, it does not appear I can edit the first post. So do I need to make a new one?

 

[Polaris]

Don't know...hello moderators?

I never saw Rocky Horror Picture Show...I must be the only person in the world.

 

[Jesin]

I suppose you can make a new thread, and then I can merge these posts into it.

 

[cheese]

Don't know...hello moderators?

I never saw Rocky Horror Picture Show...I must be the only person in the world.

I haven't either.

 

[fullerene]

Re: I'm Drinking again.

Subhuman my ass. I'd rather be unhuman than the subhuman She or He. She is especially a sort of objective (as in being object) pronoun, but he has a sense of vagueness, even if it does have a sense of humanity and subjectivity. I dislike both pronouns compared to it. If it were otherwise, I would request He or She. Do I want to be the idiot fucker or the fucking idiot? What limited options, I'd rather discard all of it. I'd rather be the reflection. A reflection is “it”, a mirror is “it”. Think of how highly the opinion of a mirror is regarded. We wouldn't call it an “opinion”, but geez, we sure as hell give it a lot of power.


I don't care too much about this anymore. When it comes down to it, I'm the greatest stereotyper of all. Men have their balls, in the light of that they're kind of useless. We all know woman have generally been regarded as worthless and inferior in intelligence. Even I think most woman are stupid as hell. I saw some stupid cunt parked half up on the curb with a slogan on the back of her jeep that said, “Silly boys, jeeps are for girls.” I wanted to take a picture.


Guys are no better. I started going by a male persona which I “made” into animus. I liked being treated as a male online. When people found out what an apparently deceptive person I was, their attitudes changed. Everyone treats people as their blanket colors. Even girls treat girls like they're suppose to be girls. If anything, that's more irritating than boys being morons after finding out you're female. I known no one, not one person, who hasn't treated me like they'd treat my sex, whether they thought I was male or female.


I think it comes down to the fact that I hate people. I passionately hate blue blankets and pink blanket people.


I also hate yellow. Unless it's Captain Morgan. God, I love drinking.



Puffy- You're delusional. And this thread has nothing to do with you... being a number.

^^explosion.

I apprecated the third paragraph, but the thing as a whole sounded like a rant from someone who was extremely pissed off. I thought it was obvious puffy was joking... and maybe you thought he was joking too, but when I read this it looked like you thought he was serious and snapped back at him for it. That's the mindset of someone in mid-explosion.

But ok. If you insist you were never angered by the reactions, then there's nothing to be sorry about.

 

[Zero]

Come on, you haven't seen RHPS?

I guess it's kind of old and definitely bizarre. I only saw it once, because my dorm mates had to watch it.

L- That's me after a few glasses of spicy rum.

Also, that's not an explosion. That's like, maybe a slight expression of irritation, because people didn't seem to get what I was saying. But I curse like a sailor when I'm not trying to be careful.

I got irked at Melkor, that was probably closer to an explosion than this. Sometimes my explosions "deplode". It seems like a discussion for another topic though. I haven't actually had the huge explosions I've had on other places that have more or less resulted in my exclusion from the group.

I knew puffy was joking. O_o; I'm dense when it comes to jokes, but not that dense. I couldn't think of a good comeback other than self-importance.

I'm still talking about the topic. When I'm utterly pissed, there's no going back, blinded by rage I attack people.

It's the difference between saying, "No one is getting this" (irked) and "You are a fucking moron. You win the stupid Olympics." (pissed)

Anyway, that's not the topic here, so I think I'll either make another topic for that and I'm still debating whether or not I can open this topic for a poll. I'll try asking about it.

 

[Moocow]

What is this topic even about anymore?

 

[Zero]

Rocky Horror Picture Show, have you seen it?

Heh, actually I'm just trying to figure out if we can get a poll here or not.

 

[shoeless]

LOVE ROCKY HORROR.

i saw it for the first time maybe six months ago. it's amazinggg.

 

[Zero]

I think it's weird that in Rocky Horror and actually a lot of other movies, they make this "scientist" character who seems insanely attention deprived or something.

Anyway, I PMed Claver about putting up a poll.

 

[Kuu]

I haven't watched rocky horror yet ... but I know I should.


guess I have something do do now

 

[Zero]

It looks like the poll is up now.

Thanks Claver

 

[Jesin]

...Eh. Room for one more?

I don't particularly care about pronouns, I guess you can use whatever pronouns you want for me, I just don't understand why the concepts of masculinity and femininity should have any connections to the concepts of male and female (or sexual orientation; I'm not really sure what that has to do with it). Or even why they're seen as mutually exclusive concepts ("feminine" behaviors are also seen as "not masculine", and vice versa). I don't really want to be female, I'm fine with the body I have, I just don't like how I'm socially not expected or allowed to behave in ways that would be considered feminine when I want to.

 

[Ogion]

My response to the whole thread is kinda "meh".
I mean, for one this is about language. Language always is quite imprecise. We're making generalizations all the time, just to get a usable thing that can serve as einformation exchange.
While i do see the point of "language makes thought" i always think "Don't they have better things to do" when i see some of those people who think chaning language is the most important thing in emancipation. I don't get it really. When i speak about or read/hear things like "mankind", or all those names of professions (isn't obvious in english, but in German for example since nouns have (grammatical!) gender, a "Bauarbeiter" (construction worker) is the male form and the official female form would be "Bauarbeiterin"), i always assume both sexes meant unless specifically meant otherwise.
You should read official texts in German, like public announcements, job offers etc etc. It's ridiculous. The amount of extra words/characters just by all the "Bauarbeiter/Bauarbeiterin" is not only more to write it is also cumbersome to read. i think people put too much value in symbolics rather than actual meaning. How about going to instill a sense of equality in everyone and not force everyone to use politiically correct words without chaning their opinions/attitudes...

Ogion

OnTopic: I'll just clal you zero if i am speaking to you or about you. Nicknames on the net are voluntary, so i assume people are comfortable with them.