Sick of your Pronouns

[Zero]

Zero wants to be referred to by "It",
not your human pronouns (he/she).

This is my official request (I guess).
​

 

[flow]

It puts the lotion on its skin or else it gets the hose again.

 

[Zero]

I don't use a lotion or hose. I have hand sanitizer (and sinks).

 

[ckm]

I don't mind. Do you want to depersonify yourself further?

It puts the lotion on its skin or else it gets the hose again.

Beat me to it.

 

[Zero]

No.

 

[Nicholas A. A. E.]

I'm not sure how serious you are. Why are you saying this?

 

[Zero]

I'm not saying I'm going to commit suicide or anything.... O_-;

It's as I said. I don't want to be referred to by he/her. Creates images, images are weakness. I also consider my animus/anima a sort of "individual".

 

[ckm]

If images are "weakness", surely defining oneself as one "type" out of a limited sixteen is weak? Also, your profile picture creates an image.

 

[Inappropriate Behavior]

It bothers me.


(I'll leave it to you to figure out what the "It" is )

 

[Zero]

INTP isn't weak in the same generalizing ways that he or she is. It's also far more precise.

Do I have a profile picture? My avatar is awesome. I enjoy looking it.

What I'm called is ultimately up to the caller. So, if it's too much of a problem, do what you want. I can't control yous. Notice, it is just a request. That's all it is.

 

[ckm]

Although I think having "no image" is an image in itself, of course I will oblige.

 

[Reverse Transcriptase]

can I call you "that number"?

 

[Deleted member 1424]

Here is a remedy for your dilemma.

 

[Kuu]

images are weakness.

Images can also be power. It depends on who controls them, I guess. But speaking of gender stereotypes I have to agree with you and your quest for it-ness.

Kuu, on the other hand, has forsaken the clear neutrality of it-ness and embraced ambiguity, multiplicity and contradiction. Bless the internet.

Fortunately, in the not-so-distant future, this will be irrelevant

 

[echoplex]

I have no problem accepting such a request. However, it would become quite confusing if, say for instance, half of the forum made a similar request. I'm liking the "0" idea. Maybe even "#" would work.

Also, since it's cool to make jokes: Tag, you're It! Stephen King's It?

And I definitely think there should be official gender-neutral pronouns, other than just "it" which seems more appropriate for objects. There's also "they", I suppose.

 

[Zero]

Reverse Transcriptase- Yes, I don't have any control over that.

Adaire- I didn't think this was such a complex problem that it would need a remedy, but if the approach of "Sie" is easier than "It" that's fine. I question the origin of such a thing, I haven't seen much usage of it, even in some of non-fiction I read that would benefit from using it.

Kuu uses CC, there's only so much ambiguity from that. I guess that was pointed out about my avatar too. I originally asked for a change in pronoun, image is somewhat dependent on the viewer. So all I can request is a pronoun.

echoplex- Use whichever you want. I figured with context it would be fairly obviously, but I don't think It can get more short handed than 0. Which I would read as a pronoun. Yes, it would be nice if there was something more neutral. Adaire suggested one such pronoun, though its usage is so rare it seems awkward. "They" kind of implies several people, but, yes, it's also used that way.

I suppose if more people used proposed pronouns like "Sie" it might gain in popularity and become normal. There could be some cause in that. Despite the mix, I always thought that pronoun sounded just as female as She.

 

[fullerene]

wait... what? You want to get rid of images, but don't think "it" creates any?

Are the images associated with your sex more of a weakness than the images associated with having other people call you an "it"?

...you have to be surrounded (/have grown up surrounded by) a bunch of people with some weird opinions of people, or whatever other subgroups of people you may belong to, to think that that makes much sense.

If you stand by your wish, I'll accept it, but it is a bit worrisome. Just so long as you know you'll have a cryptonia worrying about you every time he calls you that

 

[Nicholas A. A. E.]

I think sex is the most fundamental characteristic of anyone. Second, perhaps, to one's humanity. I do support traditional pronoun use, and think very little of sie and similar contrivances.

I don't understand why someone would want to not be referred to by the pronoun appropriate to their sex.

 

[Waterstiller]

I have problems with 'it'. I've been called an "it" before and it's extremely dehumanizing. I guess that might be the goal here, but I think motivation must be a little more clear. If you're trying to break away from humanity then "it" might be apt. If you're seeking recognition of your non-binary gender identity, a neutral pronoun (hir, ze, ect) is probably a better idea.

I think sex is the most fundamental characteristic of anyone. Second, perhaps, to one's humanity. I do support traditional pronoun use, and think very little of sie and similar contrivances.

I don't understand why someone would want to not be referred to by the pronoun appropriate to their sex.

It's only 'contrivance' because you feel comfortable with your pronoun. Pronouns can be very uncomfortable for others.

Sex and Gender are two different things, btw. Physical sex doesn't dictate gender, either. Also, physical sex isn't always M or F - look up intersex conditions.

 

[Nicholas A. A. E.]

I think that if a person is not comfortable with his sex, then it is not the language's problem, but his own.

I understand the popular distinction between sex and gender, and I have heard of the intersexual phenomenon.

However I don't believe that there exists a part of sex that may be differentiated, called gender, and left up to the individual to decide. Sex is inherent. Intersexuality is an interesting problem, but fundamentally, the person is definitely (spiritually) of one sex and not the other. Identification is sometimes difficult, but that is really a separate issue.

I do agree that there is usefulness in considering the two concepts of biological sex in its occasional gradations (intersexuality), versus the internal, "true" sex. But this latter isn't what people mean when they say "gender," so I don't try to fit the word "gender" onto it.

Sorry for sounding like a sermon guys.

 

[Kuu]

Kuu uses CC, there's only so much ambiguity from that.

Currently. But avatars are just a click away from changing, as they oh so frequently do.

I don't understand why someone would want to not be referred to by the pronoun appropriate to their sex.

I don't understand why we even need sexually differentiated pronouns in the first place. Some languages are perfectly fine without them.

Sex is inherent. Intersexuality is an interesting problem, but fundamentally, the person is definitely (spiritually) of one sex and not the other. Identification is sometimes difficult, but that is really a separate issue.

I disagree. People are "spiritually" sexless IMO.

 

[Nicholas A. A. E.]

I don't understand why we even need sexually differentiated pronouns in the first place. Some languages are perfectly fine without them.

A good point. However, within the context of this language (and culture!), it is accepted that males are referred to with masculine pronouns, and females are referred to with feminine pronouns.

I think they're useful, because they provide information. Information is good, or something.

I disagree. People are "spiritually" sexless IMO.

Well, off with your head.

 

[Firehazard159]

I also agree with Waterstiller and Kuu on this. I don't really have anything to add, though. Just wanted to voice my support.

Blocks the 'off with the head' swipe! My cause is more noble than your own, you dirty crusader! XD (Kidding, just playful RP - well, I really did block it though!)

 

[Nicholas A. A. E.]

Ho! Ha ha! Guard! Turn! Parry! Dodge! Spin! Ha! Thrust!

 

[Firehazard159]

Zero, as I am not comfortable with calling you "it," may I just refer to you as Zero in all contexts? :P

As, that is your chosen name, at least on this forum. It maybe improper English, but, well, y'know.

 

[shoeless]

you know in a lot of european languages (...well, i don't really know much, but german and french and least) they use "he" and "she" pronouns for objects as well.

for example, in german, "die lampe" means "the lamp" and because "die" is a feminine article, if you were to refer to the lamp as an it, you would really be calling it a she ("sie").

example: "die lampe ist an der tisch. sie ist braun."
(the lamp is on the table. she is brown.)
of course, to a native speaker, it just sounds like you're saying it is brown, and in translation you would write it as it is brown, but i'm just illustrating the point. the same applies for masculine pronouns (der - er) and neutral (das - es).

i don't have a problem with pronouns -- they're useful in defining exactly who/what you're referring to in a less annoying way (there's a grammar term here that i'm totally blanking on). i think "it" creates a much more vivid image than he or she does, and rather a negative one too. but hey, whatever floats yer boat.

 

[Kuu]

you know in a lot of european languages (...well, i don't really know much, but german and french and least) they use "he" and "she" pronouns for objects as well.

This happens in spanish and italian as well.

Yes, lamps are female. And cars are male. But the silly french insist they're female...


This is really stupid if you think about it, it doesn't really add anything of use.

 

[Zero]

L- I apparently miss what is so wrong with the term "it". I suppose it's not necessarily that powerful. It just is.

Nicholas- I think you make a good point. To the common people Sex is of almost total importance. That is my reasons for rejecting the pronouns. You don't have to understand it. I just request to be called by a pronoun not so drenched in assumptions and absolutes. This seems to be more difficult for this forum to 'accept' than I expected.

But it is enlightening overall. I certainly never make a topic without being motivated by curiosity of people's reactions.

Nicholas, I think you're perfectly fine in your own point of view. It's actually what I would've expected. You have every right to it.

Again, if there is an issue with referring to me as "it" you may use whatever you want. Who knows if I'll bother responding to you, but it's totally up to you.

Waterstiller- I'm sorry to read the pronoun has been a source of pain for you. If it is beyond your comfort zone to use, you may use whatever you like. As I mentioned, it's a request. I personally have no problem being called "It", but in RL I haven't been hurt by it either.

Kuu- CC is pretty awesome though. Albeit scary. Also, I don't want there to be an argument here about sexes or pronouns...

Fire- You may call me Zero in all context and if you want to short hand it there's 0.

shoeless- You seem to understand my thinking. So there's not much to say.

 

[Nicholas A. A. E.]

I'll respect your wishes and not refer to you by 'he' nor 'she', though I don't expect I'll use 'it' either. Having to refer to someone in such a manner doesn't come up all that often in this setting anyway.

Hurrah for mutual tolerance

 

[Agent Intellect]

Can I have the pronoun "X"? Just a variable that could mean anything. Essence is something subjectively imbued by an observer, anyway, but this leaves it more abstract.

In fact, I'd like it if my proper noun was changed to an unknown function "X", since "me" is sort of a differential equation that can only be expressed as being an unknown function of myself.

 

[Nicholas A. A. E.]

Language has connotation and stereotypes, guys. Changing terminology only postpones the 'problem,' not eliminates it. :P

 

[Agent Intellect]

Language has connotation and stereotypes, guys. Changing terminology only postpones the 'problem,' not eliminates it. :P

We should fix that by switching to newspeak.

 

[fullerene]

L- I apparently miss what is so wrong with the term "it". I suppose it's not necessarily that powerful. It just is.

Just because "it" is always sub-human. Whether or not that matters to you is irrelevant when you're considering the images associated with "it", so I don't feel bad pointing out that most people think less of sub-human things. Few people consider whether the rocks on the side of the road have value, and they certainly don't ask them if they mind being a part of the person's house, when they're used. It even carries over into the complexity of living creatures--an amoeba might be an "it", but people usually refer to their pets as he/she.

It carries the image that your opinions are of no value, and nobody needs/ought to care about you. I could/will call you an it if that's what you want, but it would make me want to smack some self-esteem into you, as well as make me a little bit sad that you don't mind, every time I do. I would say I'll just stick with everyone else and call you "zero", but that carries the same connotations (and I suspect you intended it that way, especially since it used to be zero: the fool), so I'm not sure why that really makes other people feel better about it.

so I'll just consent to calling you it, but you'll have to know that I'll respect and consider you as more valuable than the image you're putting off makes you seem .

 

[shoeless]

i agree with the sub-human thing. here's another example from german!

"das mädchen" in german means "the girl" -- but its, "das", article is neutral. so, technically and grammatically speaking, when referring to the girl using a pronoun, you should use "es" -- "it" -- but the germans realize how... er, potentially offensive that, and would still use "sie" (she) instead.

i went through a sort of androgynous phase in my life (yay middle school!) and was referred to as an it on more than one occasion. it's not fun.

 

[transformers]

ok It if that's what you want. but you should know, "it" also creates images. it shows you're not comfortable with the conventional pronouns, and that leads people to question why. if you don't explain why directly they'll come up with their own reasons, and those reasons won't always be favorable. if you want complete objectivity, it's usually better to go with the most generally accepted standard of the group you happen to be in, which in this case would be "him".
but if It is what you want to be called, that's fine with me.

 

[Waterstiller]

I think that if a person is not comfortable with his sex, then it is not the language's problem, but his own.

Notice how your language tends to default to person with penis?

 

[AmitaF]

Zero wants to be referred to by "It",
not your human pronouns (he/she).

This is my official request (I guess).
​

there's actually someone with a similar issue to mine, wow!
telling people that i'm not a he nor a she but 'me' didn't make any sense, it does make sense in a way O.o
I accept your request, but I think 'zero' -the name- comes into context more than she/he, so you won't see much of 'it'

 

[Da Blob]

LOL, I use the word, one, a lot to substitute for the words, you, he or she... Of course, this is the 'One' time in the entire universe that solution can not be applied...

zero can not be one and one can not be zero

 

[Nicholas A. A. E.]

I often use "one," and sometimes "he" as the standard pronoun for indeterminate gender (instead of, for example, he/she). Because it's less disruptive to the sentence and fits with practice in other languages.

 

[Puffy]

I am not a number I am a free man!

 

[Zero]

I'm Drinking again.

Subhuman my ass. I'd rather be unhuman than the subhuman She or He. She is especially a sort of objective (as in being object) pronoun, but he has a sense of vagueness, even if it does have a sense of humanity and subjectivity. I dislike both pronouns compared to it. If it were otherwise, I would request He or She. Do I want to be the idiot fucker or the fucking idiot? What limited options, I'd rather discard all of it. I'd rather be the reflection. A reflection is “it”, a mirror is “it”. Think of how highly the opinion of a mirror is regarded. We wouldn't call it an “opinion”, but geez, we sure as hell give it a lot of power.


I don't care too much about this anymore. When it comes down to it, I'm the greatest stereotyper of all. Men have their balls, in the light of that they're kind of useless. We all know woman have generally been regarded as worthless and inferior in intelligence. Even I think most woman are stupid as hell. I saw some stupid cunt parked half up on the curb with a slogan on the back of her jeep that said, “Silly boys, jeeps are for girls.” I wanted to take a picture.


Guys are no better. I started going by a male persona which I “made” into animus. I liked being treated as a male online. When people found out what an apparently deceptive person I was, their attitudes changed. Everyone treats people as their blanket colors. Even girls treat girls like they're suppose to be girls. If anything, that's more irritating than boys being morons after finding out you're female. I known no one, not one person, who hasn't treated me like they'd treat my sex, whether they thought I was male or female.


I think it comes down to the fact that I hate people. I passionately hate blue blankets and pink blanket people.


I also hate yellow. Unless it's Captain Morgan. God, I love drinking.



Puffy- You're delusional. And this thread has nothing to do with you... being a number.

 

[Anthile]

I am not sure why but this thread really bothers me. I think improper pronouns are your least problem.

 

[severus]

I am not sure why but this thread really bothers me. I think improper pronouns are your least problem.

:raises eyebrows:


Zero, if you want to be "it", than so shall I call you. Personally, I go with ze/zir to avoid the little mini-debates as have already been demonstrated....

 

[shoeless]

i'm inclined to agree with anthile at the moment. but misanthropy in general bothers the fuck out of me.

how miserable can you be, to have a view so clouded you can't see the good in people at all?

 

[Moocow]

To be quite honest, I believe that it shows significantly more weakness to have to shroud yourself in mystery out of some fear of stereotypes, than any sort of image your gender is ever going to predispose you towards.

As Mahatma Gandhi said: "Be the change you want to see."
Don't hide from stereotypes. Prove them wrong, and do it proudly.

While logically, humanity can be quite horrendous, you're going to have to face the fact that you're a human, and it's all subjective. There isn't an objectively defined good or evil, so whether people are truly good or bad is up to you. In fact, I would say it's a matter of self respect. If you hate yourself, you're going to hate the rest of the world in reflection. If you learn to love and appreciate yourself unconditionally, you'll start recognizing the good in other people as well. No one makes a decision to be evil... we're all just scared and confused in our own individual, yet strikingly similar ways. Finding that similarity, or compassion, starts with recognizing your own demons. Trust me, we INTPs all know what our demons are... take advantage of it.

Perhaps this thread bothers the other INTPs because we all resort back to shy, defensive shrouding throughout our lives in one form or another. The idea of going back to those dark days is a haunting thought for me.

 

[Nicholas A. A. E.]

I think one of the reasons it bothers me, subconsciously, is that it is a rejection of a system which I have used through my life. My subconscious objects to people not following The System.

 

[Kidege]

I think I'll go with "Zero". "It" does seem dehumanizing.

And we all know where I stand in the he/she issue, right?

 

[Waterstiller]

I love how gender neutral pronouns and identities seem to be more prominent here lately.

 

[Zero]

Moocow, you're like a therapist.

I have to agree with Nic about the uncomfortable feeling. I happen to be big into gender/sex study kind of stuff. That's pretty much on with what I read in Between XX and XY.

I guess there's nothing else to say. I still don't get the It thing being dehumanizing. Confusing, sure, it's confusing. That makes sense, dehumanizing is opinion.

Aside from that, I'm surprised by how this thread turned out. I pretty much expected two general sort of responses, loosely 'accept' or 'deny'. I didn't expect a big turn out, I also didn't expect the variety of responses.

I didn't expect the whole dehumanizing thing and I'm kind of surprised it's such a prominent theme. I also didn't expect the flip it approach.

Flipping was the most popular response in this thread. That's somewhat influenced by the question of image. However, I might expect this in larger populations, though I wouldn't expect most of the other response. Rough estimate is about 5/12 Flipping. If I don't count ones that seemed random and/or incoherent it would be more like 5/10. Flipping was more popular than any other approach. That seems fairly obvious.

 

[Nicholas A. A. E.]

Zero: Uh, what do you mean by 'flipping'?I guess I missed that somehow in my reading of this thread.

Notice how your language tends to default to person with penis?

Yes. It's not accidental; I do it that way intentionally because it resolves the issue of pronouns for unspecified gender, and also follows linguistic tradition.

Sorry, missed your comment the first time through.