Should we make excuses?

[Vmission]

In my culture, people generally make excuses for those who "offend" them, in some sort of special way (like minor offenses or they meant well). I have cut it with my father for about 3-4 years. Then we reconnected again, although we kind of agreed that we will move on from happened before (the causes). I live in another country by myself, and now it has been roughly 4 weeks since we have been talking again. I have been "nice" and "good" in terms of having interesting discussions about history and politics, and so on.. Now, what stimulated my question is the following situation:

Today, he called me one time and I didn't answer because I was busy. Then after 1 minute he sent me "Thank you". I am not trying to make a chicken out of a feather as they say but I do not like any form of guilt tripping, even if minor and especially that I'm 30+ and independent. (Thank you for what? for not answering? what if I'm taking a bath, or busy, or asleep, or whatever?!)

I was chatting with my mother, told her about what happened and asked her what she thinks. Her reply was: It's your father, he's old, he just loves you too much, he care, bla, bla, bla ...

I know that I should not take things personally, and that I should size things. However, it is a matter of principle for me that no one uses any form of guilt tripping tools. People in my culture tend to give more weight to the father and justify any mistake they make. So, I'm wondering am I right to judge the situation concretely (by that I mean black and white) or am I being too harsh in my judgement and perhaps I should find an excuse for the old man?

 

[Cognisant]

Today, he called me one time and I didn't answer because I was busy. Then after 1 minute he sent me "Thank you". I am not trying to make a chicken out of a feather as they say but I do not like any form of guilt tripping, even if minor and especially that I'm 30+ and independent. (Thank you for what? for not answering? what if I'm taking a bath, or busy, or asleep, or whatever?!)

That's very odd, are you sure he was guilt-tripping you?
He might have sent the wrong message to the wrong person or he might be genuinely thanking your for something and assumed you would know what he's talking about. There's even some people who will have a conversation with you in their head and then state the conclusion without providing context, they tend to be a bit further down the autism spectrum.

Maybe call your father and say "sorry I missed your call" don't explain why unless he asks and then just tell him you were taking a shit/shower/something, "and I got your message but I'm a bit confused, what are you thanking me for?".

Manners aren't just arbitrary nonsense they're a tool, when you open by apologizing that disarms him, he can hardly accuse you of ignoring or avoiding him after you've opened with an apology. Then when you ask him (in a non-accusative way) why he was thanking you that puts him in a disadvantageous position, he has to explain why he thanked and sure as shit he's not going to say "because I was being a manipulative asshole". But if that's what he was doing he's going to be confronted by that truth, again he won't admit it to you but having to figure out a lie will make it an evident truth to him.

Seriously though he could just be thanking you for giving him a second chance.

 

[Vmission]

Pretty sure, kind of like a half assed attempt - perhaps mildly.

I didn't answer to see how he would react, and then he called again and said: "trying to make sure you're doing good". Honestly, I am pretty precise in my language and do not understand emotions manifesting in conversations to make messages arbitrary and not following a logical flow. Like, if that was his purpose "to make sure I'm good", why doesn't he just ask: "Hey son, I tried calling you. Just wanted to make sure you're doing okay, perhaps give me a call when you have time." Instead, that's what I get:

1. Call
2. 1 minute after "Thank you" (I'm like thank me for what?)
3. I hour and 20 minutes "Trying to make sure you are doing good" (Why would you assume I am not doing good?! but okay, perhaps the intention is good)

You're right, but it was simple to put (thank you for ...). Instead this ambiguity leaves room for misinterpretation, which I think is a way to make it hard to pin him down. My father is a manipulative person in general, and he is definitely not thanking me for giving him a second chance. It would be weird in that context for him to do so, since we talked and moved on from that conversation. Him bringing it randomly doesn't make much sense. (Again that is my assumption based on knowing the man for years, he is not innocent, but I can be wrong)

Thank you for your reply and your suggestion: it gave me 2 things -
1. People can behave in not so logical ways, and I could be the victim of my own "assume people behave rationally" bias

2. I will implement your approach because I like it, I expect for him to say some bullshit like "Oh I just wanted to know you're okay", then cornering him again will not be so useful because that would create an argument out of something simple.

Good point, and thank you for your reply.

Today, he called me one time and I didn't answer because I was busy. Then after 1 minute he sent me "Thank you". I am not trying to make a chicken out of a feather as they say but I do not like any form of guilt tripping, even if minor and especially that I'm 30+ and independent. (Thank you for what? for not answering? what if I'm taking a bath, or busy, or asleep, or whatever?!)

That's very odd, are you sure he was guilt-tripping you?
He might have sent the wrong message to the wrong person or he might be genuinely thanking your for something and assumed you would know what he's talking about. There's even some people who will have a conversation with you in their head and then state the conclusion without providing context, they tend to be a bit further down the autism spectrum.

Maybe call your father and say "sorry I missed your call" don't explain why unless he asks and then just tell him you were taking a shit/shower/something, "and I got your message but I'm a bit confused, what are you thanking me for?".

Manners aren't just arbitrary nonsense they're a tool, when you open by apologizing that disarms him, he can hardly accuse you of ignoring or avoiding him after you've opened with an apology. Then when you ask him (in a non-accusative way) why he was thanking you that puts him in a disadvantageous position, he has to explain why he thanked and sure as shit he's not going to say "because I was being a manipulative asshole". But if that's what he was doing he's going to be confronted by that truth, again he won't admit it to you but having to figure out a lie will make it an evident truth to him.

Seriously though he could just be thanking you for giving him a second chance.

right

 

[Deleted member 1424]

If you've decided to let go of past transgressions, why are you determined to crucify him over something that is innocuous?

You aren't the rational actor in this scenario. Your response is highly emotional and contradictory. It doesn't serve you to pretend otherwise. To a 3rd party observer ignorant to circumstance, you look like you're being unnecessarily touchy and even manipulative. I say manipulative specifically, because you're claiming to forgive him, but clearly want to/are trying to punish.

It's a personal and perfectly valid decision whether or not to forgive people who have harmed you. However you are miring yourself in cognitive dissonance because rationalizing is your utilized coping strategy. Your father and your shared history clearly affects you emotionally. I suggest you decide what it is exactly you want from the relationship, and if you can, ask for it.

 

[Vmission]

If you've decided to let go of past transgressions, why are you determined to crucify him over something that is innocuous?

You aren't the rational actor in this scenario. Your response is highly emotional and contradictory. It doesn't serve you to pretend otherwise. To a 3rd party observer ignorant to circumstance, you look like you're being unnecessarily touchy and even manipulative. I say manipulative specifically, because you're claiming to forgive him, but clearly want to/are trying to punish.

It's a personal and perfectly valid decision whether or not to forgive people who have harmed you. However you are miring yourself in cognitive dissonance because rationalizing is your utilized coping strategy. Your father and your shared history clearly affects you emotionally. I suggest you decide what it is exactly you want from the relationship, and if you can, ask for it.

Ow, that was not easy for me to hear. I understand rationalizing and can see myself doing that, but cognitive dissonance: could you elaborate on that a bit?

I myself might be in this loop, and being emotional. This is too complex for me to think about now, but I will get around the idea.

Thank you for your insightful response. Perhaps I didn't really let go of past transgressions, I need to reflect on myself more.

 

[byhisello99]

If you've decided to let go of past transgressions, why are you determined to crucify him over something that is innocuous?

Innocuous is best not determined by a non-participant.

I suggest you decide what it is exactly you want from the relationship, and if you can, ask for it.

Concur. If the poster, though, relies on precision of language and the father does not, the key variable is whether the father can understand the request.

 

[Vmission]

Innocuous is best not determined by a non-participant.

Thank you for your response, that is correct. Sizing the effect of something is very different depending on the person. This message was better to hear than the previous one. I am open to criticism in general and that is why I posted, because I don't want to do anything out of proportion.

 

[Deleted member 1424]

Yeah, my written voice is pretty harsh. I am working on it.

With cognitive dissonance, I was specifically addressing that you seemed to be in denial of any personal emotional responses. This sort of behavoir is typically self protective and is rooted, paradoxically, in an emotional response. Emotional distancing as a defensive tactic is very common in your average self-described intps. We're never wrong you see, we're just so much more logical and perceptive than the pleb tier low iq emotional trash.

This is highly self-defeating in my opinion, and often leads down a long road of confirmation bias and potentially some pretty wild scary places. Emotions are not bad. In fact they're useful. They're a highly evolved, specialized tool we've developed to navigate complex social structures. You may have highly negative emotions concerning your father; that's fine. They may be valid, they may not be. That is also fine. You cannot suss out the truth of an interpersonal situation without understanding and accepting all the variables in play, including yourself and including emotions. Acknowledging and understanding your emotional stake in any situation will only help you navigate it.

Every relationship is going to have some sort of emotional overtone or context that develops out of a shared history. That's why familial relationships are so complex. For example there may be a warm tone with your friends or a toxic one with an ex. What's the tone with your father? What do you think he might be feeling? If he lost you for multiple years, is it conceivable that he's worried about losing you again? Is he anxious? Over-apologetic? Nervous? Insecure? If this is possible or likely, it makes sense that he would be awkward and not know what to say or do. He may even know how deeply he fucked up and feel guilty. He may also be angry at you for leaving. Conflicting emotions can produce conflicting behavoir.

Now, literally all I know about your father, is that you've deemed it worth your time to resume a relationship with him. The above is a fairly forgiving interpretation. He could be a piece of shit. I have no way of knowing. I know you are the arbitrator of this relationship now though. You decide whether it proceeds or stops. You set the boundaries. You can set the tone of the relationship now. That's why it's critical for you to decide what you want from it and understand why you want it.

 

[Grayman]

Definitely ask for clarification even if you really believe he is being manipulative. If he isn't then you avoided a lot of unnecessary misunderstanding getting in the way of your relationship.

If he is being manipulative then it forces him to be up front and honest about his intentions. This is more likely going to lead to him recognizing his behavior, consequences, and correcting them. If it is more the selfish obsession of your time and attention that drives his manipulative behaviors, you may be able to mellow them out some. The small part of him, the impulse control, that knows what he is doing is wrong might have a better chance of success if the consequences were more up front and hard to ignore.
Like trying to grab a diamond out of a potentially hot pan vs having to stick your hand in an open flame.

 

[Cognisant]

2. I will implement your approach because I like it, I expect for him to say some bullshit like "Oh I just wanted to know you're okay", then cornering him again will not be so useful because that would create an argument out of something simple.

It can be tempting to grill someone for their behavior but it's hard to hold the moral high ground when you're the one pressing the attack. I think fundamentally he wants to reconcile with you, and you want to reconcile with him, but you're both having difficulties with communication and conflict management.

It's very easy to get caught up on how we feel and what vengeance we believe we're owed, to expect an apology but not to give one, that conflict is a zero sum game where the winner takes all and the loser gets nothing but that's not how it works. Usually it's a case of everybody wins or nobody does, either you and your father manage to restore your relationship or you both suffer for lack of it.

 

[peoplesuck]

People are just a conglomeration of coping mechanisms with feelings. We are all a bit damaged, in our own little ways. Nobody chooses their damage, I suppose you have to make the decision based on your moral compass.

 

[ZenRaiden]

This is between you and your father. If you like direct honest language then simply use such communication with your father. That is if he writes Thank you ,..... you tell him you do not like guilt tripping, and that the reason you did not respond immediately is, because you were not available end of story..... this whole idea of asking my mother and asking a forum is alien to me in terms of solving your family relations.

It gets tricky with people all the time, but the relationship with your father is not really demanding given you are not in direct contact.

 

[BurnedOut]

If you've decided to let go of past transgressions, why are you determined to crucify him over something that is innocuous?

You aren't the rational actor in this scenario. Your response is highly emotional and contradictory. It doesn't serve you to pretend otherwise. To a 3rd party observer ignorant to circumstance, you look like you're being unnecessarily touchy and even manipulative. I say manipulative specifically, because you're claiming to forgive him, but clearly want to/are trying to punish.

It's a personal and perfectly valid decision whether or not to forgive people who have harmed you. However you are miring yourself in cognitive dissonance because rationalizing is your utilized coping strategy. Your father and your shared history clearly affects you emotionally. I suggest you decide what it is exactly you want from the relationship, and if you can, ask for it.

You are probably making a mistaken judgement. Given the history of the author, it is likely that there is a pattern of behavior established between the both of them that led to their falling out.

The author seems to have experienced toxicity at the hands of his father. It is visible in the way that he asserts how guilt tripping is a bad thing to do. It is usually peculiar when someone consciously asserts a point that is widely accepted by almost everyone.

I know that I should not take things personally, and that I should size things. However, it is a matter of principle for me that no one uses any form of guilt tripping tools. People in my culture tend to give more weight to the father and justify any mistake they make. So, I'm wondering am I right to judge the situation concretely (by that I mean black and white) or am I being too harsh in my judgement and perhaps I should find an excuse for the old man?

No, you are not overreacting and you are. To us, you might be but pertaining to your situation, you are not. Either ways, don't think about our opinions regarding your reaction. In my opinion, you are right and you should not find an excuse for the old man if he is engaging in such behavior despite forming a truce. A truce means stoppage of violating behavior and does not imply unconditional acceptance. Unconditional acceptance only arises when the truce stands the test of time and sincerity.

 

[kittyfranklin]

I would say that making excuses for people is a sign of codependency. I definitely want to understand why someone does something, so I do rationalize why people do what they do, but it doesn't mean I have to accept that in my life, if they're doing something unacceptable to me.