Should INTPs have jobs?

[Inquisitor]

The key to whether or not INTPs enjoy physical activity hinges on the strenuousness of the activity in my opinion. This has to do with the fact that INTPs do not have a robust physical constitution, and body and mind do not develop separately. You will not find a single INTP on this planet that is built like an NFL linebacker, even if they're jacked up on steroids. Similarly, ISTJs that are built like little twigs are also nonexistent. Thus, the probability that an INTP will enjoy regularly participating in strenuous physical activity over any significant period of time is extremely low.

Have you ever tried doing all of the daily exercises on the Crossfit homepage exactly as instructed? I have. I quickly realized I would be an idiot to continue trying and limited myself to a much more moderate regimen. And this was when I was still in my early twenties, and (arguably) more physically robust than I am now. I have not met another INTP that has a different build from my own. But...if you think I'm being too subjective, I won't disagree with you there and just point out that this is something you can verify for yourself. It's an idea you can put to the test.

 

[The Grey Man]

The key to whether or not INTPs enjoy physical activity hinges on the strenuousness of the activity in my opinion. This has to do with the fact that INTPs do not have a robust physical constitution, and body and mind do not develop separately. You will not find a single INTP on this planet that is built like an NFL linebacker, even if they're jacked up on steroids. Similarly, ISTJs that are built like little twigs are also nonexistent. Thus, the probability that an INTP will enjoy regularly participating in strenuous physical activity over any significant period of time is extremely low.

Have you ever tried doing all of the daily exercises on the Crossfit homepage exactly as instructed? I have. I quickly realized I would be an idiot to continue trying and limited myself to a much more moderate regimen. And this was when I was still in my early twenties, and (arguably) more physically robust than I am now. I have not met another INTP that has a different build from my own. But...if you think I'm being too subjective, I won't disagree with you there and just point out that this is something you can verify for yourself. It's an idea you can put to the test.

I am an INTP with a robust physical constitution who enjoys strenuous physical activity. I read the Crossfit homepage and think, "that looks like fun". The problem is, I have no particular desire to exercise regularly. I could do nothing but eat junk food for months and still be more fit than the average person, and becoming more fit just for the sake of improving or realizing my potential just seems like a dead end and a failure to recognize alternatives whose limits aren't so immediately set by my brute physical characteristics. If I became an elite athlete, part of me would revel in the praise of other people because of the unfortunate psychological need for external approval, while another part would see the accomplishment as meaningful only by arbitrary comparison with the abilities of other athletes. Understanding, on the other hand, effectively destroys you and replaces you with another more cognizant of the nature of reality than the last, so it's absolutely meaningful. I'll take books over barbells.

My body type is meso-ecto (something like 1-4-4), which I understand is typical for INTP's. Not a linebacker, and not a twig either. It doesn't really change much; the fruit of exercise is getting better at that particular kind of exercise. My immune system is strong.

 

[Inquisitor]

I am an INTP with a robust physical constitution who enjoys strenuous physical activity. I read the Crossfit homepage and think, "that looks like fun". The problem is, I have no particular desire to exercise regularly. I could do nothing but eat junk food for months and still be more fit than the average person, and becoming more fit just for the sake of improving or realizing my potential just seems like a dead end and a failure to recognize alternatives whose limits aren't so immediately set by my brute physical characteristics. If I became an elite athlete, part of me would revel in the praise of other people because of the unfortunate psychological need for external approval, while another part would see the accomplishment as meaningful only by arbitrary comparison with the abilities of other athletes. Understanding, on the other hand, effectively destroys you and replaces you with another more cognizant of the nature of reality than the last, so it's absolutely meaningful. I'll take books over barbells.

My body type is meso-ecto (something like 1-4-4), which I understand is typical for INTP's. Not a linebacker, and not a twig either. It doesn't really change much; the fruit of exercise is getting better at that particular kind of exercise. My immune system is strong.

A meso-ecto constitution is not "robust" by any measure. I have the same btw. I am not talking about the "health" aspect of the word "robust" here. I am very healthy, but I am built the opposite of a "brick shithouse." I mean strength, size, mass. A "robust" constitution is at least a pure meso. And if you think the Crossfit exercises "look fun" but then don't do them at all, let alone regularly, can it really be called a "fun" activity for you? It can be fun to think about or even toy with the possibility. But actually doing a whole lineup of burpees, deadlifts, and pull-ups until you max out, even slowly and under untimed conditions is going to be more painful for anyone who's at least somewhat ecto than for the mesos and endos of the world. Their bodies just can't handle that kind of strain, and their minds are already hyperactive enough as it is.

 

[The Grey Man]

A meso-ecto constitution is not "robust" by any measure. I have the same btw. I am not talking about the "health" aspect of the word "robust" here. I am very healthy, but I am built the opposite of a "brick shithouse." I mean strength, size, mass. A "robust" constitution is at least a pure meso.

Ok. I'm pretty strong, but my mass isn't huge given my height. I'm hardy though. I'd probably have increased stats for durability as a character in an RPG.

And if you think the Crossfit exercises "look fun" but then don't do them at all, let alone regularly, can it really be called a "fun" activity for you?

Yes. I don't have to do everything that I would consider fun. Especially when I see it as pointless. The exertion and scheduling involved means it loses out to activities that are more relaxing or require less discipline, even if they are similarly pointless. Better still is learning.

It can be fun to think about or even toy with the possibility. But actually doing a whole lineup of burpees, deadlifts, and pull-ups until you max out, even slowly and under untimed conditions is going to be more painful for anyone who's at least somewhat ecto than for the mesos and endos of the world. Their bodies just can't handle that kind of strain, and their minds are already hyperactive enough as it is.

No pain, no gain.

Seriously though, while they are less strong and massive, ectos can do all those things, eventually improving, but they are more likely to spend time on what they are already good at or predisposed to. It's not that they can't, unless they are legitimately paralyzed. They don't.

 

[Inquisitor]

Ok. I'm pretty strong, but my mass isn't huge given my height. I'm hardy though. I'd probably have increased stats for durability as a character in an RPG.



Yes. I don't have to do everything that I would consider fun. Especially when I see it as pointless. The exertion and scheduling involved means it loses out to activities that are more relaxing or require less discipline, even if they are similarly pointless. Better still is learning.



No pain, no gain.

Seriously though, while they are less strong and massive, ectos can do all those things, eventually improving, but they are more likely to spend time on what they are already good at or predisposed to. It's not that they can't, unless they are legitimately paralyzed. They don't.

So your point is basically that INTPs can do exercise, that they enjoy it, but that they'd rather do other things?

I don't really buy it. If you enjoy something, you'll want to do it, and you will do it. Not much more to it than that. Correct me if I'm wrong here but you seem kind of the young side (guessing in the early 20s range)...?

 

[The Grey Man]

So your point is basically that INTPs can do exercise, that they enjoy it, but that they'd rather do other things?

I don't really buy it. If you enjoy something, you'll want to do it, and you will do it. Not much more to it than that. Correct me if I'm wrong here but you seem kind of the young side (guessing in the early 20s range)...?

I never said that INTP's generally enjoy exercise, only that I do, and having enjoyed things in the past doesn't necessarily motivate me to do them again. I am not interested in setting fitness goals, and without those goals, exercise is just a mental painkiller to me, a function which can be performed by all manner of things that are less strenuous. There are more interesting and edifying things to do. Books over barbells. INTP's probably prefer theory to physical development, even those that do enjoy physical activity, which almost certainly exist, as even the most "twiggy" ecto might be able to run for great distances and enjoy runner's high. And then there are the moderate ones like me, who can do more taxing stuff.

Yes, I am on the young side.

 

[Inquisitor]

I never said that INTP's generally enjoy exercise, only that I do, and having enjoyed things in the past doesn't necessarily motivate me to do them again. I am not interested in setting fitness goals, and without those goals, exercise is just a mental painkiller to me, a function which can be performed by all manner of things that are less strenuous. There are more interesting and edifying things to do. Books over barbells. INTP's probably prefer theory to physical development, even those that do enjoy physical activity (which almost certainly exist, as even the most "twiggy" ecto might be able to run for great distances and enjoy runner's high).

Yes, I am on the young side.

Wait until you're a little older...I used to enjoy fairly strenuous gym workouts when I was in college (unassisted pullups/dips, + loads of push ups, low bar squats, track sprints). Hell, I even rowed Division I varsity crew for my university for a year (hated it, but stuck with it out of a misguided sense of "finishing what you start". I can assure you that now in my 30s, these things seem much less enjoyable. Even when I do try to push myself physically, I have found my body doesn't seem to like it very much. Now, the best solution for me is a moderate 20-minute weight workout + 10 minutes of cardio. That's plenty, and I only lift every other day.

 

[Attreyu]

I never said that INTP's generally enjoy exercise, only that I do, and having enjoyed things in the past doesn't necessarily motivate me to do them again. I am not interested in setting fitness goals, and without those goals, exercise is just a mental painkiller to me, a function which can be performed by all manner of things that are less strenuous. There are more interesting and edifying things to do. Books over barbells. INTP's probably prefer theory to physical development, even those that do enjoy physical activity, which almost certainly exist, as even the most "twiggy" ecto might be able to run for great distances and enjoy runner's high. And then there are the moderate ones like me, who can do more taxing stuff.

Yes, I am on the young side.

Few people genuinely enjoy exercise, for similar reason that few genuinely enjoy broccoli.

This whole twist in the discussion about INTPs working-out is ultimately irrelevant. If this was such a show-stopper, it would have been incorporated into the questioners, thus it is already factored in.

The body has the natural tendency to avoid motion, but that's a degenerate state; much like its natural tendency to crave only sugar and fat.

The argument that INTPs never seriously train is on the same class of arguments as saying "you are an INTP only if you are mentally weak enough to fall for your body's craving for sugar and fat. Any sign of effort or self control against your craving puts you out of the category".

 

[Inquisitor]

Few people genuinely enjoy exercise, for similar reason that few genuinely enjoy broccoli.

This whole twist in the discussion about INTPs working-out is ultimately irrelevant. If this was such a show-stopper, it would have been incorporated into the questioners, thus it is already factored in.

The body has the natural tendency to avoid motion, but that's a degenerate state; much like its natural tendency to crave only sugar and fat.

The argument that INTPs never seriously train is on the same class of arguments as saying "you are an INTP only if you are mentally weak enough to fall for your body's craving for sugar and fat. Any sign of effort or self control against your craving puts you out of the category".

Take two people. One INTP and one ISTP. Both are willing to exercise regularly, and both stick with their regimens. Which one is going to exercise more intensively (whatever form that may take) and be more likely to enjoy it? The ISTP. That's my argument. Don't think I can possibly make this any more obvious.

 

[Haim]

Take two people. One INTP and one ISTP. Both are willing to exercise regularly, and both stick with their regimens. Which one is going to exercise more intensively (whatever form that may take) and be more likely to enjoy it? The ISTP. That's my argument. Don't think I can possibly make this any more obvious.

Likely is not is,even 99% likely have its 1%.An INTP will probable do more kinds of exercises.Who enjoy it more is only one part of the equation,you can't know who exercise more.INTP is a human being as the rest of the types,you can not determine a function(INTP,brain,person) by one output(exercise,reading books,other hobby),many functions can reach the same input,in order to understand a function you need to insert many inputs into it and see the result(points forming a line,parabola,circle),exercise by itself is nothing,one dot.

 

[Inquisitor]

Likely is not is,even 99% likely have its 1%.An INTP will probable do more kinds of exercises.Who enjoy it more is only one part of the equation,you can't know who exercise more.INTP is a human being as the rest of the types,you can not determine a function(INTP,brain,person) by one output(exercise,reading books,other hobby),many functions can reach the same input,in order to understand a function you need to insert many inputs into it and see the result(points forming a line,parabola,circle),exercise by itself is nothing,one dot.

I know.

 

[Attreyu]

Take two people. One INTP and one ISTP. Both are willing to exercise regularly, and both stick with their regimens. Which one is going to exercise more intensively (whatever form that may take) and be more likely to enjoy it? The ISTP. That's my argument. Don't think I can possibly make this any more obvious.

The one that biologically was gifted with more testosterone.
The more T an athlete has the more it feels enjoyable to them. My T has always been in 200s since a teenager. I have been cruising on 1/3 the hormones of most people, but outperform many on sear grit; there is nothing fun about it, before during or after. At some point I decided that this is something necessary regardless of fun. It has nothing to do with enjoyment.

Either your stereotyping of INTP is wrong or the MBTI is wrong. Pick one.
-If you are more an authority on MBTI than MBTI itself and if you are correct; then the MBTI is wrong because it has failed to show an 'S' in me in all the assessments over the years. As such you are implicitly proving that MBTI as a faulty measure.
-If you accept the MBTI as correct and the MBTI questioners never revealed an 'S' in me (or any INTP that exercises), then your stereotyping of INTP is faulty.

 

[Inquisitor]

The one that biologically was gifted with more testosterone.
The more T an athlete has the more it feels enjoyable to them. My T has always been in 200s since a teenager. I have been cruising on 1/3 the hormones of most people, but outperform many on sear grit; there is nothing fun about it, before during or after. At some point I decided that this is something necessary regardless of fun. It has nothing to do with enjoyment.

Either your stereotyping of INTP is wrong or the MBTI is wrong. Pick one.
-If you are more an authority on MBTI than MBTI itself and if you are correct; then the MBTI is wrong because it has failed to show an 'S' in me in all the assessments over the years. As such you are implicitly proving that MBTI as a faulty measure.
-If you accept the MBTI as correct and the MBTI questioners never revealed an 'S' in me (or any INTP that exercises), then your stereotyping of INTP is faulty.

No. Those are not the choices. You're an outlier. And the MBTI people stick closely to the typing instrument developed by Myers, and she in turn stuck (more or less) to Jung's ideas, and he doesn't venture into correlating physical constitution and type...But in Ayurveda, classifying people according to constitution has been done for thousands of years right up until the present day. And this is where I'm getting my ideas from, since I've been studying the subject for many years now.

If what you say regarding your T levels are correct, then my guess is you're using intensive exercise as some kind of over-compensation. Different types of people have different minimum exercise requirements for optimal health and balance. Endomorphs need more (slower overall metabolism due to relatively lower catabolism. This is a crude explanation but it roughly captures the energy equation), ectos need less (tendency towards higher catabolism).

INTPs are universally ecto/meso. Hence, if they do too much, it's harmful, but too little is not going to cause them to feel mentally sluggish and dull. On the flip-side, endos do feel this way without sufficient physical movement. They get a significant psychological and cognitive boost from intensive exercise. It invigorates them. They are capable of doing manual labor all day long (and many do), and not be the worse for it. Ectos will suffer in the long run if they attempt the same. The way to classify someone according to constitution is by looking at ear placement on the side of the head. And before you tell me I'm wrong, take the time to verify it for yourself first on your own time.

Ear Placement and Visual Typing

(Scroll to the very last post at the bottom)

 

[Sixup]

No offense Inquisitor, but somatotypes are bullshit.

One of the fattest guys I knew in high school, who would've been called an endomorph...you'd now look at him and call him a classic ectomorph. He lost a shit ton of weight.

It's just about what you choose to do with your body, not some predestined thing.

 

[Attreyu]

No. Those are not the choices. You're an outlier. And .... .... ....

Well, ok, we seem to come from different schools of thought. You seem to take the MBTI for granted and question anyone that contradicts it's doctrine. On the other hand, I doubt the MBTI itself, especially due to the self-reporting mode it relies on. As such the wording of the questioner, the ambiguities it introduces in the test-taker's mind, and the test-taker's own distortions of how they think they behave as opposed to how they really are in reality essentially erode or negate any validity of the MBTI core theory.

So, I will not say you are super wrong on everything, because of the "massive" chance that I might have personal illusions to consistently throw the tests off and put me in the wrong places ... but that in itself is flaw of the tests for not having enough error checks or validity checks. Also, when you take a test with a professional they will discuss the results with you *after* you took the test, not during, and they don't know you enough to stop you from entering a bogus answer anyway.

For example, my wife thinks she is very organized and answers positively that question anywhere and everywhere, but she is not organized for real; her desk is always a mess, she can't find things when needed, her computer files are like a hoarder's pile and so on. Reality and self perception are two different things.

 

[Inquisitor]

No offense Inquisitor, but somatotypes are bullshit.

One of the fattest guys I knew in high school, who would've been called an endomorph...you'd now look at him and call him a classic ectomorph. He lost a shit ton of weight.

It's just about what you choose to do with your body, not some predestined thing.

What looks like an "ectomorph" is still likely to be an endomorph in your friend's case. Sheldon did not have accurate enough methods at his disposal for typing constitution. Thus his understanding of physical constitution is limited. Ayurveda has a much longer track record in this domain (thousands of years->present). See the bottom of this post for more info.

Read my previous post about ear placement and what I linked to. It's not possible to accurately slot people into somatotypes by how heavy they are. Americans are just too fat. Additionally, some endos are exercise fanatics and look very thin and trim. If you examine their bone thickness though, you'll see they are not thin-boned people. Contrast that with pure ectos who have the most delicate (in the sense of fragile) bone structure, and who may look like mesos (due to too much fast food).

Body constitution as I have described it is 100% predetermined. Completely genetic. There is nothing you can do to change the underlying metabolic tendencies. It's very possible to lose or gain weight, but that's body mass not constitution. Google "Ayurveda Prakriti" for a general idea of what I'm talking about here.

Well, ok, we seem to come from different schools of thought. You seem to take the MBTI for granted and question anyone that contradicts it's doctrine. On the other hand, I doubt the MBTI itself, especially due to the self-reporting mode it relies on. As such the wording of the questioner, the ambiguities it introduces in the test-taker's mind, and the test-taker's own distortions of how they think they behave as opposed to how they really are in reality essentially erode or negate any validity of the MBTI core theory.

So, I will not say you are super wrong on everything, because of the "massive" chance that I might have personal illusions to consistently throw the tests off and put me in the wrong places ... but that in itself is flaw of the tests for not having enough error checks or validity checks. Also, when you take a test with a professional they will discuss the results with you *after* you took the test, not during, and they don't know you enough to stop you from entering a bogus answer anyway.

For example, my wife thinks she is very organized and answers positively that question anywhere and everywhere, but she is not organized for real; her desk is always a mess, she can't find things when needed, her computer files are like a hoarder's pile and so on. Reality and self perception are two different things.

I don't believe that the test is 100% accurate. I give primacy to the theory. If you consistently get "INTP" on the MBTI, and through extensive reading of the foundational works and other well-reputed MBTI authors (Thomson, Keirsey, Quenk, and so forth) you still identify most strongly with the INTP type and not any other types, then you must be an INTP. However, if you do not have an ecto/meso constitution, you can rule out INTP with 100% confidence. The trick is to type your constitution correctly, and this can be challenging. See the following two resources for more information:

Determinants of Prakriti, the Human Constitution Types of Indian Traditional Medicine and its Correlation with Contemporary Science

Also a simple quiz sufficient for ruling out certain psychological types (but not for health purposes):

Prakriti Quiz

 

[Attreyu]

The MBTI is questionable enough (certainly in implementation and likely in theory too) in my eyes ... and the somatotype / personality likning is highly speculative.

You are trying to validate one questionable theory with another.
I am not saying that physiognomy, somatotyping, etc doesn't have merit in principle, but it has been abandoned by rigorous science for a while.

My observation is , that the way you champion both MBTI and somatotyping, puts you in some shaky, eccentric territory. Your approach is a bit too fringe for my interest. We all might have some bodytype observations, but do not broadcast them so easily.

(if I were to humor you, then yeah I have always been an meso-ecto, or pitta-vatta in your case. This is probably up you alley too --> http://www.mysomatotype.com/body-type/?page_id=281)