She-Hulk wasn't terrible

[EndogenousRebel]

Besides a couple eye-rolling moments that are targeted at certain niche communities, it was a fun care-free show with higher quality than most internet content.

Don't know how to feel about the climax of the season.

Spoiler

Little too care-free, to just throw away the final arc of the story for some stanley parable, portal 2, meta shit. It was unexpected and funny,

but yeah, in my mind that was kinda the nail in the coffin for any re-watchability.

 

[birdsnestfern]

I got through 4 episodes and it was ok, was curious about it also. I might watch more later.

 

[Cognisant]

I thought it was absolutely fascinating, as an insight into the psychology of the writers.

 

[Cognisant]

A monument to the writing team's entitlement and incompetence.


I think a pissed off executive punished them for it by putting them into their own terrible show.

I thought it was absolutely fascinating, as an insight into the psychology of the writers.

 

[EndogenousRebel]

Second person I've seen who want to give the writers specific advice. Then there's the pretty much autistic impulse to point out that suspension of disbelief isn't to their liking.


The writers seem seasoned enough in the industry and have worked on plenty of other projects. The video points out how this show was a lose lose situation for them no matter what they made, so they did indeed see through catering to an audience that was likely going to hate this anyway. Also apparently the this adaptation is exactly how the comics were, but I never read those.

Laugh with them or be laughed at I guess isn't the best policy, but again I'm not praising the show, it's just "not terrible" IMDBs 5 rating is about right.

 

[scorpiomover]

For some reason, She-Hulk has never been a popular character, not in films or TV.

Surprising, because Hulk is popular, super-powerful women are popular, purple-skinned girls like The Purple Girl are popular, but not She-Hulk. Don't know why.

So if this version is unpopular, it's not exactly surprising.

 

[EndogenousRebel]

For some reason, She-Hulk has never been a popular character, not in films or TV.

Surprising, because Hulk is popular, super-powerful women are popular, purple-skinned girls like The Purple Girl are popular, but not She-Hulk. Don't know why.

So if this version is unpopular, it's not exactly surprising.

I think the genre 'legal comedy' is difficult to pull off for most audiences.

If you're watching something for the the legal elements of it, then you're trying to derive some value from it. Inserting comedy detracts from that.

Not that you asked, but I personally didn't derive much enjoyment from the legal aspects of the show. They were set pieces meant to drive the plot towards conflict for character "development".

Though there are interesting ideas of that can come of legal system with super people, it didn't really touch on that.

 

[Hadoblado]

It looks fun to me (haven't seen it). I kind of hope that by making unapologetically girl-boss superhero shows, they stop shoe-horning it elsewhere. ATM most of the time in the MCU it feels like shallow signaling rather than a meaningful theme. She-Hulk is the perfect character for looking directly at the camera and engaging with the subject without all the additional fallout.

 

[scorpiomover]

I think the genre 'legal comedy' is difficult to pull off for most audiences.

Programes about lawyers are one of the most reliable: Legal Eagles, LA Law, Suits.

Not that you asked, but I personally didn't derive much enjoyment from the legal aspects of the show. They were set pieces meant to drive the plot towards conflict for character "development".

Though there are interesting ideas of that can come of legal system with super people, it didn't really touch on that.

Considering that the President and VP of Marvel Studios are both listed as running the show, and that the show has a dozen writers, and the lack of quality stories, they were probably looking for a cash cow.

 

[Jennywocky]

I was excited about She-Hulk (I was buying comics off the rack when Byrne was writing her in the 80's) and thought it might be one of the few saving graces of MCU Phase 4.

Boy was I wrong. This has just been a terrible disappointment. The show wasn't quite as bad as Falcon/Winter Soldier and some of the other offerings -- it was essentially mediocre -- but should have actually been a slam dunk based on casting and the fact it wasn't overly complex. Like, how could anyone mess it up?

After completing Season 1, my thought is that it was a show that relied on its cast to do all the heavy lifting. Tatiana Maslany was the right lead for the show, but the script doesn't give her much support. It's really interesting to me that the best episodes were the ones with other decent actors (Episode 1, Ruffalo; Episode 8, Charlie Cox), and then some individual scenes, as Tim Roth is a seasoned actor as well. Somehow they could elevate the material or all had some chemistry. The only other great scene I recall was the wedding (episode 5?).

I found so much of this show uninspired to the degree I'm not even glad I watched it. So often it would think it was cute, while being drab; easy-going, while being aimless; profound, while being insipid; witty, while being flat. That whole episode about the quirky costume designer is just a really bad ripoff of Edna Mode from The Incredibles (who was much better written) and I don't think I laughed once. There was a lot of this. They really needed someone who could write funny dialogue and have them punch up the scripts.

I am especially annoyed that so much of the arguing centered around "wokeness" -- people either attacking or defending the show vigorously through the facet of the gender wars -- because it removed the ability to critically discuss the show. A show isn't bad just because it focuses on women, nor is it good just because it focuses on women. Sadly, it's Jennifer Walters who got short-changed the most here. I felt like they ran with this total mess of a show because, since it was about "women," then any attacks on it were automatically sexist and the execution of the idea was beyond reproach.

I didn't really have a problem with the legal angle and Jen wanting to be viewed as a lawyer who just happened to have superpowers; that's actually an interesting idea. However, the show's writers seemed to conflate its high concept ideas (like that one) with actually writing a good show. Likewise, that whole fourth-wall breaking in the finale (they should have done a lot more with this throughout the season, honestly) was a great idea and true to the comic -- but the writing was just so flat, unfunny, and preachy at best, rather than as intelligent and droll as it needed to be. Again, did anyone notice how the robot was ripped off of either Wall-E or some other Disney property? Do something original and actually make it funny, next time.

The best comparison I can make is Deadpool -- it's not high-art, but boy was it funny and entertaining and true to the comic. Would that this show had at least measured up to that.

This isn't just a problem with this show, it's pretty much a problem with all of MCU Phase 4 since the Russos and some of their other content creators left. They've brought in a bunch of questionable writers / showrunners seemingly without much real experience for these kinds of shows, and most of Season 4 is not worth watching once, let alone twice. My enthusiasm for the MCU has pretty much crashed.

 

[scorpiomover]

I was excited about She-Hulk (I was buying comics off the rack when Byrne was writing her in the 80's) and thought it might be one of the few saving graces of MCU Phase 4.

Boy was I wrong. This has just been a terrible disappointment.

I found so much of this show uninspired to the degree I'm not even glad I watched it.

I am especially annoyed that so much of the arguing centered around "wokeness" -- people either attacking or defending the show vigorously through the facet of the gender wars -- because it removed the ability to critically discuss the show.

These days, many disagreements revolve around such accusations.

Spoiler

We need to establish clear rules for what is genuine non-sexist, non-racist, non-homophobic non-bigoted criticism, and people respect those definitions.

Until then, we've just got easily-manipulable mobs on social media that are probably going to be manipulated in the interests of whoever has the most money, as those people can pay far more people to push social media users to support views that expand their interests, than anyone else, and probably would, as that would increase their money.

A show isn't bad just because it focuses on women, nor is it good just because it focuses on women. Sadly, it's Jennifer Walters who got short-changed the most here. I felt like they ran with this total mess of a show because, since it was about "women," then any attacks on it were automatically sexist and the execution of the idea was beyond reproach.

The wokeness battles that She-Hulk might have fought, had already been won at this point.

Spoiler

Trying to get women to be recognised as leads in shows, has a been moot point for feminists decades. "I Love Lucy" was a hit show with a woman in the lead, back in the 1950s. There have been loads of shows with women leads ever since then (I've watched a lot of TV).

Even trying to get women recognised as powerful superheroes equal to men, has been a moot point, ever since Famke Jannsen's Jean Grey in X-Men: The Last Stand almost killed everyone on the planet, including nearly all the male superheroes, except for Wolverine.

Even trying to get women recognised as good superheroes that are positive female role models has been a moot point, ever since the Wonder Woman films, and Supergirl, which is in its 6th Season.

All these walls have been broken. There's little more to do on this point.

It might have been better if they'd made She-Hulk bisexual, trans or non-binary, as she has male and female attributes.

Playing on both male and female attributes could have also been a fertile base for all sorts of funny confusions, which could have pushed wildly interesting storylines, like that She-Hulk has to choose between the romantic attentions of her hunky male collleager and the romantic attentions of her sexy woman neighbour.

I didn't really have a problem with the legal angle and Jen wanting to be viewed as a lawyer who just happened to have superpowers; that's actually an interesting idea. However, the show's writers seemed to conflate its high concept ideas (like that one) with actually writing a good show. Likewise, that whole fourth-wall breaking in the finale (they should have done a lot more with this throughout the season, honestly) was a great idea and true to the comic -- but the writing was just so flat, unfunny, and preachy at best, rather than as intelligent and droll as it needed to be. Again, did anyone notice how the robot was ripped off of either Wall-E or some other Disney property? Do something original and actually make it funny, next time.

She-Hulk came out of the era of Howard the Duck and Groo! There were several hulks, Green Hulk, Red Hulk, etc. There was a whole gang of hulks at one point. She-Hulk was a comedic throwaway, as she's trying to be a lawyer who doesn't use muscles at all, when she's a superhero whose main superpower is using her big bulging muscles.

The best comparison I can make is Deadpool -- it's not high-art, but boy was it funny and entertaining and true to the comic. Would that this show had at least measured up to that.

Deadpool was also one of those anti-heroes: he's a superhero who is insane and loves killing people. But no-one minded criticising him because he was a heterosexual white man, who was also a criminal. So the writers were forced to make Deadpool good.

 

[Jennywocky]

A show isn't bad just because it focuses on women, nor is it good just because it focuses on women. Sadly, it's Jennifer Walters who got short-changed the most here. I felt like they ran with this total mess of a show because, since it was about "women," then any attacks on it were automatically sexist and the execution of the idea was beyond reproach.

The wokeness battles that She-Hulk might have fought, had already been won at this point.

Spoiler

Trying to get women to be recognised as leads in shows, has a been moot point for feminists decades. "I Love Lucy" was a hit show with a woman in the lead, back in the 1950s. There have been loads of shows with women leads ever since then (I've watched a lot of TV).

Even trying to get women recognised as powerful superheroes equal to men, has been a moot point, ever since Famke Jannsen's Jean Grey in X-Men: The Last Stand almost killed everyone on the planet, including nearly all the male superheroes, except for Wolverine.

Even trying to get women recognised as good superheroes that are positive female role models has been a moot point, ever since the Wonder Woman films, and Supergirl, which is in its 6th Season.

All these walls have been broken. There's little more to do on this point.

I agree that a lot of walls were broken in general in the past, although lately there's been a glut of MCU-related women characters who seem to be short-changed unless they are in the process of being killed off, which is weird. There's less of them, so they stand out more, but I'm not that impressed. Even with Captain Marvel being a mary sue of sorts, the film at the time had been a low point in the MCU, it just wasn't very well written and had little character arc.

Generally, my thought if that if a story is good (regardless of what it's about) and the characters feel real (regardless of their attributes), then that is a vehicle to move and sway people or at least leave them feeling attached. All of these seems to come from top-down, trying to number-crunch demographics, and it isn't concerned about the execution of the ideas themselves, so it all ends up making for bad stories and bad art.

It might have been better if they'd made She-Hulk bisexual, trans or non-binary, as she has male and female attributes.

Playing on both male and female attributes could have also been a fertile base for all sorts of funny confusions, which could have pushed wildly interesting storylines, like that She-Hulk has to choose between the romantic attentions of her hunky male collleager and the romantic attentions of her sexy woman neighbour.

That would have definitely been interesting, although you know that would have immediately triggered hotter battle lines -- cries of sexism and anti-trans vs woke people trying to groom children. The USA really sucks nowadays, does anyone take us seriously around the world?

I'm feeling like issues were more important for the She-Hulk mini-series rather than actual humor or character dev, and that's how it all panned out. Which was a shame.

She-Hulk came out of the era of Howard the Duck and Groo! There were several hulks, Green Hulk, Red Hulk, etc. There was a whole gang of hulks at one point. She-Hulk was a comedic throwaway, as she's trying to be a lawyer who doesn't use muscles at all, when she's a superhero whose main superpower is using her big bulging muscles.

I still have some Howard the Duck comics (like when he took over Damien Hellstrom's powers, rofl) and Sergio Aragones was always lovely. Not only the Groo stuff, but his spoofs of Marvel and DC as well, along with Mark Evanier. They were pretty funny. His contributions to MAD Magazine were really great too.

I miss when things were actually good in some way -- whether funny, dramatic, or meaningful. Just something about the bland dreck.

I never really got into the multi-colored shades of Hulk. It was too much like talking about the array of colored kryptonite in DC, lol.

 

[scorpiomover]

I agree that a lot of walls were broken in general in the past, although lately there's been a glut of MCU-related women characters who seem to be short-changed unless they are in the process of being killed off, which is weird. There's less of them, so they stand out more, but I'm not that impressed. Even with Captain Marvel being a mary sue of sorts, the film at the time had been a low point in the MCU, it just wasn't very well written and had little character arc.

MCU are caught between a rock and a hard place.

If they portray a woman character with flaws (NOT a Mary Sue), then some feminists will complain that that's an example of Toxic Masculinity, and plenty of other feminists will come to support their fellow women.

They can only make a woman character with flaws, if she's someone that no human women can relate to, like an Aileen Wouros character, such as The Enchantress and Dark Phoenix who is going to destroy the world. Even so, they can't have her on screen for long, and so she has to die.

If they make a woman character without flaws (a Mary Sue), e.g. Supergirl, then she's so impossibly perfect that most women can't relate to her, because nowadays, even women who are flawless say they still feel like they are deeply flawed.

Generally, my thought if that if a story is good (regardless of what it's about) and the characters feel real (regardless of their attributes), then that is a vehicle to move and sway people or at least leave them feeling attached. All of these seems to come from top-down, trying to number-crunch demographics, and it isn't concerned about the execution of the ideas themselves, so it all ends up making for bad stories and bad art.

Sure. But so many people today are worried about their public image and being judged for having the slightest imperfections, that almost all public characters tend to become unrealistic 1-dimensional characters that are much more like NPCs than anyone real.

It might have been better if they'd made She-Hulk bisexual, trans or non-binary, as she has male and female attributes.

Playing on both male and female attributes could have also been a fertile base for all sorts of funny confusions, which could have pushed wildly interesting storylines, like that She-Hulk has to choose between the romantic attentions of her hunky male collleager and the romantic attentions of her sexy woman neighbour.

That would have definitely been interesting, although you know that would have immediately triggered hotter battle lines -- cries of sexism and anti-trans vs woke people trying to groom children.

DC has plenty:
1) Supergirl's sister Alex Danvers came out as a lesbian in Season 2, and continued as a lesbian for 4 more seasons. She even got married to her female partner in the finale of Season 6 of Supergirl.
2) Dreamer, aka Nia Nal, is an openly trans woman, since Season 4 of Supergirl, and continued as an openly trans woman for 2 more seasons.
3) Harley Quinn starts a lesbian relationship with Poison Ivy at the end of Season 2, and is now in her 3rd season.

DC is the Conservative/Republican version of MCU. But I'm not hearing anyone scream about them, and they've gone on to make more seasons after coming out.

The USA really sucks nowadays, does anyone take us seriously around the world?

Not with the way the Left attacks the Right, and the Right is portrayed as being worse than Islamic fundamentalists and Islamic terrorists. Who would want to live in such a dystopia?

I'm feeling like issues were more important for the She-Hulk mini-series rather than actual humor or character dev, and that's how it all panned out. Which was a shame.

I completely agree. IMHO, Harley Quinn, Alex Danvers and Nia Nal have had lots of humour, lots of character development, and covered quite a few issues at the same time. I really don't see why MCU can't do the same, particularly as these are LGBT characters in the DC universe which is Conservative/Republican and MCU is aimed at Liberals/Democrats.

I still have some Howard the Duck comics (like when he took over Damien Hellstrom's powers, rofl) and Sergio Aragones was always lovely. Not only the Groo stuff, but his spoofs of Marvel and DC as well, along with Mark Evanier. They were pretty funny. His contributions to MAD Magazine were really great too.

I remember Sergio Aragones. Used to LOVE reading Groo. Grew up reading tons of MAD Magazine, as a friend's dad had regular subscription.

I never really got into the multi-colored shades of Hulk. It was too much like talking about the array of colored kryptonite in DC, lol.

It got really silly. Even The Leader, who was like a brainy version of the Hulk (his brain got huge because of Gamma radiation), was really quite pathetic.

I also agree about the coloured Kryptonite. One of the reasons why Superman 3 was more like a spoof of Superman 1.