Sexuality

[BigApplePi]

I don't know, I've met some really big women, and on occasion, even a nice guy.

How BIG? How NICE? LOL.

 

[Vatroslav]

Yes you are right.

It is shallow.

I am certainly no idealist or feminist. I am human, and understand human suffering. I wish things could be balanced, and perhaps it is easier than we think. But we are not always using our brains for those purposes.

I just try to understand and listen.

Sometimes that gives me great sorrow.

Today is not a good day, think I will go into hibernation for a while.

You mean- today you are in a bad mood? This day itself has no difference from yesterday, or from tomorrow. Don't let that "day" to control your thoughts and feelings!

Weltscmertz? I know that feeling... but that feeling is inside of me, and you, or anyone else. It does not exist out there, annihilate it if it troubles you, if not, use it for something constructive. I think that it is really good to learn to control our feelings just like it is to learn to control our thoughts... not feelings nor thoughts should have any power over ourselves.

 

[Lithorn]

Ok, Wadlez, I do owe you an apology. I was too harsh, mainly due to my frustration over the tangential nature of this thread. I'll admit that the way the argument kept getting more and more convoluted was not entirely your fault, and Pi had it right when they simply asked for a re-presentation of the idea which had gotten lost under other issues.

As for my opinion of the debate now that it has been clarified, I agree that underexposure to the sexual side of human nature causes the concept to be mystified, thus increasing the fascination with which it is viewed and eventually its value, leading in innumerable other problems.
But you've got it upside down. The government which censors the media and decides that prostitution is illegal is made up of people, people who grew up in a society where sex was not to be discussed and prostitutes were stigmatized. Basically, we could be drawn into an endless 'chicken or the egg' argument, but in the end it's more important for the cultural attitude to change, which means education and open communication, not just changing laws.

 

[Vatroslav]

Yes, I agree about communication... but I consider the main problem to be deep in human psyche, really caused by "culture" and "civilization". The more the individual is conscious of himself, the less he really needs laws from outside to regulate him. I can assure you I would never go with the prostitute. Not because of stigmatization, but because I know I do not need that, and think that sex is something much deeper then pure physical pleasure. Sex should be a consequence of very deep relationship between the two to be truly fulfilling. Most people do not understand deeper parts of themselves, so they can't know what is truly good for them, nor how anything affects those same deeper parts, so not only sex. A truly introspecting person, honest with him/herself, will clearly come to most sane conclusions. As our conscious self grows bigger, the unconscious grows smaller. The more we are conscious of ourselves, the most dark and horrible things, as well as our abilities and most positive things, the less our animal nature affects us, and more we can call ourselves Homo Sapiens (Truly misused title).

To be able to control our animal impulses, to an extreme degree, means to became purer and purer human being. This has nothing to do with religion and social commandments, it has to do with balance! If our thoughts rush on us, and make us fear anything, worry about anything- we are not their masters. Same with emotions and instincts. Then, again, if every instinct is over-saturated, there is a really good reason for that. We can't deny that balance is the only healthy state for us. So there is a good reason if someone can't control his sexual instinct and need for pleasure (of which we become dependent quietly the same as we become dependent of heroin). Balance means power over ourselves at the same time.

I'm not speaking about self-restrictions, extreme asceticism, monastic life or anything which has to do with any religious institution, sacred texts or anything. I just say- not only the balance of the body, but balance of instincts, emotions, thoughts, will, and balanced inter-relationship of them all- means healthiness, both psychological and somatic.

And who really wants to be sick? Nobody actually. And who is? The majority of people. Because they try to find the cure in wrong things, try to find sense in senseless.

About social and civilization standpoint I don't really care. This social reality is corrupted, and will be corrupted until the more and more individuals come to balance and become able to see some things as they really are.

All this is kind of simplified, because to be detailed about this would require a book, and a thick one... but I think I was clear.

 

[BigApplePi]

I agree that underexposure to the sexual side of human nature causes the concept to be mystified, thus increasing the fascination with which it is viewed and eventually its value, leading in innumerable other problems.
But you've got it upside down. The government which censors the media and decides that prostitution is illegal is made up of people, people who grew up in a society where sex was not to be discussed and prostitutes were stigmatized..

I consider the main problem to be deep in human psyche, really caused by "culture" and "civilization". The more the individual is conscious of himself, the less he really needs laws from outside to regulate him. .... sex is something much deeper then pure physical pleasure. Sex should be a consequence of very deep relationship between the two to be truly fulfilling.

To be able to control our animal impulses, to an extreme degree, means to became purer and purer human being. This has nothing to do with religion and social commandments, it has to do with balance!

I just say- not only the balance of the body, but balance of instincts, emotions, thoughts, will, and balanced inter-relationship of them all- means healthiness, both psychological and somatic.

I will like to boil down what I read suggested by the above for sexuality. I like to do this because to understand I have to know things in their simplest forms.

I see sexuality as composed of two separate parts: desire/satisfaction and belonging. Evolution relates sex with two people. Sex works terribly with three and one has no obvious established meaning.

The desire/satisfaction part resides in the individual and is sensual/ immediate. The belonging part makes for partnership and is much longer term. These two distinct parts of sexuality are not very distinct in the human psyche. A great deal of social aid is sought to bring about their satisfaction. Their satisfaction or lack thereof affect us greatly.

Social activities roughly in order of complexity are: masturbation (not social), prostitution, dating, common law, marriage.

Comments -
Masturbation - physical only; requires transient fantasy; not social at all.
Prostitution - wadlez's topic; belonging is absent except for transience; family doesn't exist
Dating - preparatory; belonging is transient
Common law marriage - not as secure for family
Marriage is the ideal because both parts are potentially satisfied and family is approved socially

I may be off on some details, but the idea is that the individual has a tough time at the desire/satisfaction end of the scale. Note that desire/ satisfaction is physical and can't be denied. It will come out one way or the other. Belonging can be done without but is desirable if only because support enhances well being.

 

[Polaris]

You mean- today you are in a bad mood? This day itself has no difference from yesterday, or from tomorrow. Don't let that "day" to control your thoughts and feelings!

Weltscmertz? I know that feeling... but that feeling is inside of me, and you, or anyone else. It does not exist out there, annihilate it if it troubles you, if not, use it for something constructive. I think that it is really good to learn to control our feelings just like it is to learn to control our thoughts... not feelings nor thoughts should have any power over ourselves.

You sound like a therapist. Or a guru of some sort

 

[Vatroslav]

But I'm not... I'm just reasonable... think about it, you'll see... there's nothing illogical in what I've said, is there?

 

[Cavallier]

Courtesans.

I remember my fellow school girls giggling about courtesans. Later they called courtesans prostitutes. I've always been comfortable with the idea and never felt any animosity toward the profession. They are artists of a sort. They can dance, sing, and are knowledgeable on a wide range of subjects. They are intelligent, capable, and cunning. Yes, you pay for their attentions. You also pay a painter, sculptor, and craftsman for their work.

I think that if we as a society accepted courtesans as not being morally wrong then we might be able to get a lot of unfortunate women (and men) off the streets while simultaneously empowering them. What we need is a graduated scale of courtesans. Really well trained ones from exclusive schools could be hired by those who want a courtesan for a particularly special occasion or simply have more money then a regular person. Then we need less exclusive and less expensive courtesans for a simple night on the town,a little fun, or even as a means of relaxing after a long day. We could have respectable schools for them all across the country. This could be incorporated into the college system: Smaller community colleges that have courses such as sensual massage, conversational skills, etiquette, and sexual technique. Students majoring in the Courtesan Arts could take these classes and eventually pass a series of exams and receive an Associates in Courtesan Arts. Then the graduate could either work for some sort of reputable Courtesan Hiring Agency or put up their shingle somewhere (This is not unlike being a doctor. You wouldn't ever go to see a doctor who didn't have a degree. You can go to a doctor who works for an HMO or you could go to a doctor who has his own clinic.). If a student really enjoyed it they could go to a larger state run university and eventually earn their Bachelors in Courtesan Arts. Those with bachelors degrees would obviously be worth more and therefore earn more money. Finally, the rich and/or ambitious students could compete to get accepted to a select few exclusive schools that would give their degree that added prestige and their pockets that added padding (Okay fine. There really is no way of talking about this subject without having a few puns I'm sorry!). I suppose to be able to teach these arts you need to at least have a Masters or perhaps even a doctorate. Now that would be one heck of a courtesan!

I hope you all realize that I'm not limiting this profession to women only. I don't want to be standing around wondering where then Men Whores are while all the guys are off getting their jollies. (or whatever gender you prefer)

Thus we have a group of highly skilled intellectuals who take pride in what they do. There will have to be a little bit of regulation to make sure that things are kept sanitary and safe. However, given a little bit of structure and a good education there is no reason to worry about sexually transmitted disease or overpopulation from unwanted pregnancies.

Other than religion (Oh sticky sticky religion) I see no reason why this idea wouldn't be successful in solving some of our societal issues.

I think there will always be unfortunates who sell their body to lowlifes in order to make a buck but I worry there is no helping some people. I hope that my idea might save most of them however.

 

[wadlez]

I like your thinking cavallier.
When theres a market for this sort of thing there will be a product which targets it, so this sort of thing would definately come about.
Many people dont understand what the true effects of unregulating the sex industry (and many other things) would be. When there is no longer restrictions you get all sorts of new and awesome things which appeal to all potential demographics.

There will have to be a little bit of regulation to make sure that things are kept sanitary and safe.

The only part I disagree with. Negative liberty will prevail, you would find that no one wants unsafe and unsanitary sex, so who would want to pay for it when safe and sanitary sex is available? Hence the free markets would shape this product into something safe. This eliminates the need to take away our civil libertys and entrust a few people with power over many (positive liberty).

I think that in the future people will look back at these times and try to think how could everyone be so stupid for such having such sexual repression (like we do now for previous times). As I am typing this, someone in the world is being arrested and locked in jail for providing a service of a sexual nature to a consenting individual.

 

[Cavallier]

The only part I disagree with. Negative liberty will prevail

I just meant that we'd need some way of enforcing the requirement of a degree. Not unlike a doctor. You could of course run a practice without one if you wanted but you wouldn't be allowed to call yourself an official Courtesan. You could call yourself an Eastern Scheherazade or Temptress of the Indian Arts but if you wanted to have the official title of a Courtesan you'd have to have a degree.

I was also thinking that perhaps a student could have a focus if they wanted in their Bachelors of Courtesan Arts. He or she could get a general education in all the arts or focus on the Karma Sutra, or Geisha Arts (It doesn't always have to be about sex after all. Sometimes you might just want a wonderful engaging companion.), or Middle Eastern Arts, or any other school of thought (not unlike studying different philosophies) that might catch your fancy.

I'm really warming to this idea.