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Self-harm

nooli4

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Sorry if this is random. But I was wondering if anyone has had any experience with self-harm? Or, more importantly, if they have any advice on how to help someone who does self-harm? Any advice would be much appreciated. Thanks.
 

fullerene

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depends on what kind of self-harm. Are they physically cutting themselves, turning anorexic, doing a lot of drugs, mentally guilting themselves, or self-sabotaging everything (like a guy going after a girl who has a boyfriend already) before they have a chance?

There're a bunch of different kinds of self-harm, so my ideas would change for each one... but if you can't explain, I can think of two common themes. The first is that I don't think I've ever seen a case where "the problem," as other people see it, was actually just a symptom of some other root issue. The second is that pretty much the worst thing you can do is give some sort of motivational push with nothing to back it up. I've heard that the classic Dr. Phil "you just need to get off your ass and get yourself a job is what ya need ta do!" is about the worst thing you can possibly tell to a depressed person, so I'd assume it's the same thing if you push them to stop hurting themselves without finding out why and trying to help with that too. Maybe it's just because I'm INTP, but when the brief motivational spurt dies out and the root of whatever's the problem hasn't been taken care of, I would not only go back to doing whatever I was doing, but feel worse about it because the motivation brings determination, and "if that much determination won't push me through this, then I don't think anyhing will."

so... those are the two I can think of with only the vague information. Try to help them deal with the root of the problem, and be extremely wary about boosting their confidence and motivation to stop hurting themselves until you do. Oh... and I guess I would add to that, "most of the time, the best way to help is just to listen."
 

Auburn

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I've heard that the classic Dr. Phil "you just need to get off your ass and get yourself a job is what ya need ta do!" is about the worst thing you can possibly tell to a depressed person

Well said, I completely agree with everything Cryptonia said. :)

Also, listening to them will go a long ways for them, but if it's possible for you to understand the "root" of their issue this will do much more for them. Most people can't even see how they themselves have ended up in the situation that they're in - and it takes a very intuitive eye to be able to see the sequence of events that has lead to their situation. See if you can't view his/her life from multiple perspectives to get a crystalline picture of his/her predicament - and the reason for why this is happening.

Once you understand the root of the issue, formulating the solution is probably the most difficult thing. As Cryptonia mentioned, simply saying "Stop doing that!" is useless; if it was that easy they would have done it by now. The solution is to fill that gap that they're using self-harm to fill.

Sometimes when you identify the problem, it is out of your hands to do anything about it. In situations like this, the most you can do is just to understand them, and to share what you've realized about their situation. However, if it is in your power to be part of the solution, by all means do so.
 

NoID10ts

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I was a cutter. My upper arms and chest still have a lot of self inflicted scars and tatoos from cutting myself with razor blades. I still don't fully understand it, except to say that, for me, it was tied into my self worth. I hated myself and this is how I coped with it.

It's a mystery to me, in a sense. I don't really understand what motivated me to start doing it. I know that I stopped once I felt like I had a purpose and that I wasn't a complete waste of skin. It coincided with a time in my life when I began to have some close friends, and I completely stopped for about 14 years once I met my wife.

A few years ago I hit a real low point and on Father's Day, I did it again, much to my wife's horror. This prompted me to get help for depression and I haven't done it sense, although I have come close.

I guess I'm not really offereing a solution, but maybe a bit of insight.
 

nooli4

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depends on what kind of self-harm. Are they physically cutting themselves, turning anorexic, doing a lot of drugs, mentally guilting themselves, or self-sabotaging everything (like a guy going after a girl who has a boyfriend already) before they have a chance?

I think it's mainly cutting, though they don't really want to talk about what they actually do. Or as NoID10ts said:

I hated myself and this is how I coped with it.

This is probably part of it, they have really low self-confidence, but the problem is that if I try to compliment them, they either just say I'm lying or ignore the compliment and when I repeat it, get annoyed. Do you think that if they spoke to someone else who also self-harmed, it would help them, or would it just make it worse?

By the way, thanks for all your comments so far, I'll speak to them tomorrow and see if I can understand what the main problem is.
 

EloquentBohemian

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A couple of years ago, I volunteered on a suicide phone line. To get into the program, applicants had to take psychological tests themselves, be interviewed, and then be admitted into an intensive 6 week course with guided sessions on the phones near the end, before being certified to be on the phones as a volunteer.
In the course, it was expressed that one of the probable causes of self-inflicted harm, especially physical self-harm such as cutting, is that the pain of the cutting masks the real psychological pain the person endures. Cutting is a more immediate, direct and knowable pain than the one(s) within. It is less a 'call for help' than a primal form of self-therapy, in away. Cutting takes one's consciousness away from the internal pain(s) briefly. It is almost a form of relief and release.
 

NoID10ts

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A couple of years ago, I volunteered on a suicide phone line. To get into the program, applicants had to take psychological tests themselves, be interviewed, and then be admitted into an intensive 6 week course with guided sessions on the phones near the end, before being certified to be on the phones as a volunteer.
In the course, it was expressed that one of the probable causes of self-inflicted harm, especially physical self-harm such as cutting, is that the pain of the cutting masks the real psychological pain the person endures. Cutting is a more immediate, direct and knowable pain than the one(s) within. It is less a 'call for help' than a primal form of self-therapy, in away. Cutting takes one's consciousness away from the internal pain(s) briefly. It is almost a form of relief and release.

I couldn't have said it better.

As far as helping them. I know that I would shut down when someone else would bring it up. I was sensitive and embarassed about it ,in a sense, but yet some part of me wanted people to know (but only certain people). For me, simple friendships helped, having projects to work on (particularly creative ones) helped, and frankly, the best help was a romantic relationship (but those can also turn bad and make it even worse). I wanted to make my own way, not receive charity. Once I felt like I was making my own way, it increased my self worth, and I stopped doing it.
 

fullerene

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wow those are good words.

I got to the point fairly recently where I thought I could at least understand where people were coming from with cutting, although I never did it myself. I could kind of abstractly see it as a possible solution... but that put very concrete words to what I was thinking.

yah nooli... couple things about compliments. The first is that, like you said, they'll never believe you--especially not if they sort of came to ask you for help. You're pushed into a situation where any compliments you give will sound fake or hollow. The other problem is that even if their self-esteem were built up by compliments, it would have no real foundation to it. What happens if they start to think "wellll ok then... I guess I'm a bit better than I thought I was," and then someone criticizes or insults them? Just because low self-confidence is their "base state" it'll take no more than an unkind word or two to dismantle everything nice everyone else has said.

to answer your question yes, I think speaking to someone else who hurts themselves would behelpful. That's mostly just a hunch, though. I'm starting to see a cycle that could develop, of someone who hurts themselves to mask the psychological pain, and then hurts more psychologically because they know it's an unhealthy way to cope. If that's the case then even knowing stories of people who think the same way, that they're not any more pathetic than everyone else, sounds like it should help quite a bit. That way no one's really "helping," because like NoID10ts said that didn't help at all... but at the same time it helps to see, quite clearly, that people aren't perfect and pretty much everybody has their problems and concerns.
 

Jesin

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the problem is that if I try to compliment them, they either just say I'm lying or ignore the compliment and when I repeat it, get annoyed.

Yeah, trying to compliment them is usually a bad idea. A compliment should convey something like "Wow, you're really good at X, I'm impressed." When you try to complement someone, it usually comes out sounding like "I wanted to complement you about something, so I thought about it and decided you're pretty good at X."

By the way, did this person actually tell you they were hurting themselves, or did you notice it yourself? Just wondering.
 

EloquentBohemian

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couple things about compliments. The first is that, like you said, they'll never believe you--especially not if they sort of came to ask you for help. You're pushed into a situation where any compliments you give will sound fake or hollow.

This is true. The self-esteem issues are a result of the situations/events which propagated the pain and therefore the feelings of self-degradation.

The other problem is that even if their self-esteem were built up by compliments, it would have no real foundation to it. What happens if they start to think "wellll ok then... I guess I'm a bit better than I thought I was," and then someone criticizes or insults them? Just because low self-confidence is their "base state" it'll take no more than an unkind word or two to dismantle everything nice everyone else has said.
Again, true. Compliments are only panaceas or band-aids to mask or cover the wounds, the sources of the pain are much deeper. Giving compliments makes the one giving the compliments feel like they are helping. The intentions are honest, but the application is not what is needed.

to answer your question yes, I think speaking to someone else who hurts themselves would behelpful. That's mostly just a hunch, though.
Actually, what a person in this state wants more than anything else is someone to listen to them, to let them talk about it in their own words and their own way. Sometimes, merely eye contact or a simple hug (i know this sounds corny) will be enough to let the other person know that you are someone who will listen and not make judgments.

The need is for release, not more words from another. The wounds must be drained first before any healing can occur and you connot heal another, all you are there for is to allow the other the space and time to slowly heal themselves.

I'm starting to see a cycle that could develop, of someone who hurts themselves to mask the psychological pain, and then hurts more psychologically because they know it's an unhealthy way to cope.
This is the cycle with any self-harm or other addiction. The cycle cannot be halted by another. There are no 'miracle cures' or 'programs', there is only time, space, the knowledge that it is fine to push the 'infection' out of the wounds, and that some one cares enough to listen to you.
 

fullerene

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any? really? I had kind of wondered if it was all, but I didn't want to generalize about something that seemed so personal.
 

EloquentBohemian

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any? really? I had kind of wondered if it was all, but I didn't want to generalize about something that seemed so personal.
It took time to initiate and reinforce the inflictions which led to the feelings of lowered self-esteem and self-harm, only time, patience and the reassurance that one can heal will allow the harmed one to heal themselves.
I'm not, by any stretch of the imagination a psychologist, only someone who has dealt with this with others before, and I'm not saying there won't be residual effects or scars, these will remain a lifetime; but what takes time to create in the psyche, takes more time to heal.
 

loveofreason

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I appreciate all that's been said in this thread, but am hesitant to add anything.

Not that long ago I obsessed with the notion of cutting. I'm normally averse to knives, but I found myself in such inexpressible pain it was like something itching in my veins, clawing to get out. I thought if only I could cut myself it would be so peaceful. I could just watch my blood flow away, taking all the hurt with it.

It seemed I had no means of externalising pain, yet had to make the invisible manifest somehow - had to give it a shape, a form and focus. Is this a consequence of being a poor communicator?

I think in wiser cultures the invisible burden is recognised, and pain is embraced in its transformative capacity. There are rituals in which the individual gives up a tiny piece of flesh in order to release some dead part of their life. I think we have much to grieve - many of us too much so as we dwell on the insane fringe of a repugnant mainstream society.

Strong disease needs strong medicine, and without the shaman to show us the way we are left in our own hands with only a compulsion and feral instincts to half illuminate possible responses.

"...primitive self-therapy" indeed.
 

loveofreason

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Our avatars are both... blue! :eek:
 

Jennywocky

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I was a cutter. My upper arms and chest still have a lot of self inflicted scars and tatoos from cutting myself with razor blades. I still don't fully understand it, except to say that, for me, it was tied into my self worth. I hated myself and this is how I coped with it.

I'm sorry. That's rough. I'm glad you haven't been in that spot regularly for a long time.

With me, it came on the tail end of nine months of depression fighting off swallowing all my sleeping pills nightly. I knew I had to change things in my life but was terrified of the cost to myself and people I loved, and it was hard not to check out.

Eventually I started to cut myself, not that much at first, but it was starting to get worse and deeper... and that's when I said, "Enough." So with me, it was partly the self-loathing, but it might have also been partly me forcing the issue of change. (Giving myself an ultimatum to either move ahead or finish myself, rather than living like a dead person all the time.)

Not that long ago I obsessed with the notion of cutting. I'm normally averse to knives, but I found myself in such inexpressible pain it was like something itching in my veins, clawing to get out. I thought if only I could cut myself it would be so peaceful. I could just watch my blood flow away, taking all the hurt with it.

That resonated with me too... not the latter part per se, but the "itching" part. Sometimes it would feel like there was black in my veins dying to get out, and I just wanted to release it -- like scratching yourself madly when you have chicken pox of the soul, I suppose -- and be pure again. there was relief in experience the pain rather than being dead all the time.

It seemed I had no means of externalising pain, yet had to make the invisible manifest somehow - had to give it a shape, a form and focus. Is this a consequence of being a poor communicator? I think in wiser cultures the invisible burden is recognised, and pain is embraced in its transformative capacity. There are rituals in which the individual gives up a tiny piece of flesh in order to release some dead part of their life. I think we have much to grieve - many of us too much so as we dwell on the insane fringe of a repugnant mainstream society.
That is also part of it -- I was unable to voice to others what i was experiencing on a daily basis, I knew they wouldn't accept it, and I knew they also wouldnt understand -- and that's all I had left. All that pain has to go somewhere.
 

Gorgrim

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loads of insight in this thread. Althought i find blood hard to think of or look at.

The thought of blood deterred me from hurting myself like that. But in my earlier days I have comtemplated other ways and i've hurt myself by punching things for example. I wonder how you relief yourself because i feel terrible just thinking of blood. Think i had some bad memories. Such as the times i cut myself by accident, once on glass, others on knives. Don't really like talking or thinking about it actually...
 

nooli4

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By the way, did this person actually tell you they were hurting themselves, or did you notice it yourself? Just wondering.

Actually a friend and I had suspected it for a while, but a couple of days she told us she wanted to tell us about something and then admitted that she had been cutting but she thought she had stopped now. However, we're still worried about her so we were trying to think how we could help.

Actually, what a person in this state wants more than anything else is someone to listen to them, to let them talk about it in their own words and their own way. Sometimes, merely eye contact or a simple hug (i know this sounds corny) will be enough to let the other person know that you are someone who will listen and not make judgments.

The reason I thought it might help her to speak to someone else doing the same is because I thought the other person may understand it better. Seeing as I have another friend who told me she's been cutting for a while, I thought that they would help each other, but I wasn't sure about it. Consequently, I spoke to her and told her that she could speak to my other friend who was self-harming if she wanted to. She has told me that talking about it does seem to help.

Gorgrim said:
The thought of blood deterred me from hurting myself like that. But in my earlier days I have comtemplated other ways and i've hurt myself by punching things for example.

Another thing I realised today was that I was being slightly hypocritical, because though I've never actually cut myself, I probably have done things which border on self-harm (but I suppose most people do), for example, repeatedly hitting my hand or arm against walls intentionally. And I've never really talked about it to anyone... so that really made me admire my friends who have actually admitted that they do have problems and accepted it.

Thanks again to everyone's comments, it really helps me understand how I can try to help them or even recognise what their thought process is. I sincerely wish good luck to anyone else who is trying to overcome similar problems and also thank them once more for talking about it. Sorry that this post is so long, :o I'll try to keep them shorter next time.
 

EloquentBohemian

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I think in wiser cultures the invisible burden is recognised, and pain is embraced in its transformative capacity. There are rituals in which the individual gives up a tiny piece of flesh in order to release some dead part of their life. I think we have much to grieve - many of us too much so as we dwell on the insane fringe of a repugnant mainstream society.
Ritual. This what our present-day societies lack. Rituals are the retelling of events which link us to our source, whatever one believes this to be. They are the re-enactments of stories, mythologies, which contain deep meanings to our psyche, both individual and collective. There is a 'magic', a transcendant factor, to a ritual which draws the individual out of the monotonous chaos of everyday life into a realm of imagination, the process of imaging. It is images which speak to the psyche in a more direct manner than words. When one performs a ritual, one 'becomes' the original participants of the original event. One transcends linear time into transcendant time.

With the lack, or even absence, of ritual in life, one begins to create one's own rituals. If one's psyche and one's memory contain strong 'negative' events, then the rituals constructed by the psyche will be of the kind to both re-state and expunge these events. The ritual of 'cutting', and it is a ritual, performs two functions. First, it re-enacts and makes visible the memories of the originating 'negative' events which produced the pain and self-abnegation. This 'brings forth into the world' the source(s) so that one may be conscious of them. Secondly, the ritual, in an attempt to expunge these memories, and their source(s), performs a physical action akin to 'cutting out' that which caused the pain. A ritual is always a physical event.

But there is a problem with self-ritual. Being as this ritual is performed in secret and solitary, there is no 'other to project onto' the source of the pain, there is only one's self. In other words, there is no scapegoat or saviour to absorb the sins (sources of pain) but one's self. One becomes the totality of the ritual, the one who hurts, the one who is the source of the hurt, and the one absorbing the 'sins' of the hurt. You can see the spiral which develops here.
The individual becomes, simultaneously, the re-enactor (the inflictor) of the source of the pain, the pain itself, the expunger of the pain, and the scapegoat/saviour of the pain. Self-healing and self-loathing become intertwined, thus multiplying the confusion and complexity of the individual's pain. Nothing is resolved. Nothing is healed. The individual returns to a benumbed and detached state to escape the cycle until it re-emerges.

Rituals of this sort must be externalised onto a scapegoat. Often, if one pursues therapy, one's therapist becomes the 'priest' performing the ritual and the scapegoat absorbing the 'sin'. This produces a love/hate relationship toward the therapist as the individual respects, or even reveres, the therapist for being the assistor, the 'redeemer', in the healing, yet loathes the therapist for becoming the absorber, the embodiment, of the sins/pain.

In Chistian mythology, Satan takes on both the role of the scapegoat and the source (the embodiment) of the sins of all Humankind, whereas Christ is the redeemer (healer) and the priest performing the ritual of expunging the sins.
Also, in Christian folk-lore, there is one who is named 'The Sin-eater'. This is one who, through a certain ritual, absorbs ('eats') the sins of another immediately prior to death so that the other may enter sinless into Heaven. This Soul-eater is loathed and reviled, but is tolerated because of his usefulness. According to folk-lore, this Sin-eater is condemned to live until such time as he finds another willing to become a soul-eater. The new soul-eater then consumes all the sins the former one absorbed and, as his existence progresses, will add more sins to this total. These Sin-eaters existed primarily from Medieval times into the Renaissance.

On a side note, I think the Catholic church lost much of its power when they shifted the Latin Mass into English, removed the rood screen, and let the congregation see the ritual performed. The 'mystery' of this ritual was stripped from it and what spoke to the psyches of the congregation was now speaking to the consciousness and became common and subject to analysis. Rituals contain a 'mystery' to them, a unknown underlying current which promotes the transcendance of the every-day. To remove this mystery is to remove the sacredness, the feeling of sanctuary, of the ritual.

There needs to be rituals to address the solitary pain of individuals. These rituals cannot be born of analysis or constructed logically or empirically, they must be intuited; they must be drawn from the archetypes within the psyche. This is not something for the psychologists or psychiatrists, no matter how pure their motives. Rituals involve mythology and mystery. They are the realms of poets and shamans.

Strong disease needs strong medicine, and without the shaman to show us the way we are left in our own hands with only a compulsion and feral instincts to half illuminate possible responses.
Shamans, when healing the sick, enter a state of trance in order to discover the spirit infecting the one ill. The shaman will recognise this spirit and know how to fight or deal with the spirit. This spirit may not be necessarily detrimental in its natural state, but when combined with a human spirit, there is a struggle for dominance. Sometimes the shaman, in order to deal with the illness, will absorb the spirit into him/her self. It is not uncommon for the shaman to be ill him/her self for days while the shaman struggles with the spirit to expel it or to live with various spirits within so that they may not infect others again. The shaman has undergone rigid training in the rituals and myths of the group, including a 'death/rebirth' ritual which marks one as a shaman. For this, the shaman is both revered and feared by the group, but a necessary factor in the cohesiveness of the group.

The role of shaman in our 'modern' societies has gone to various functions of our societies. Priests, pastors, psychiatrists, psychologists, popular music idols, and 'New Age' gurus to name a few. But these 'shamans' are, for the most part, not learned in the deep mythological metaphorical meanings of the 'mystery' and 'magic' of the rituals they perform or develop. A ritual must connect back though time, not merely be a performance of actions.

Until we infuse our societies with rituals which have mythological and metaphorical meaning to our psyche, both individual and collective, as well as our modern-day progressive life, individuals will construct their own rituals which will be virtually ineffective and definitely damaging to the individual and to our species as a whole.
 

Agent Intellect

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i only ever cut myself once. but i found painkillers and eventually alcohol do a better job of numbing the internal pain for me. i wish i could talk about it in past tense like many of you, but unfortunately its still a work in progress. anyway, i'm sure my talking about it is getting old, so i'll stop there.
 

EloquentBohemian

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*leans forward and cups ear in order to hear better*

(...what are friends for :))
 

Kidege

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EloquentBohemian said:
The ritual of 'cutting', and it is a ritual, performs two functions. First, it re-enacts and makes visible the memories of the originating 'negative' events which produced the pain and self-abnegation. This 'brings forth into the world' the source(s) so that one may be conscious of them. Secondly, the ritual, in an attempt to expunge these memories, and their source(s), performs a physical action akin to 'cutting out' that which caused the pain. A ritual is always a physical event.

The Catholic Church stil has retreats where people do gory penance. My issue with them would be the institutional side. I don't, wouldn't trust them as depositaries or mediators of my pain.

Another option for the "scapegoat" is an animal (dove, rooster) that "absorbs the damage" and is later freed or killed. (As in afrocaribbean rituals, where there's a "saint" supervising the whole deal).

But of course, rituals only work where there's belief.

Edit:

Thinking back on my own experience with rituals, I don't think they always work. There came a point when I was depressed even by them (think: Yeah, the deity is helping me out, but what am I supposed to do now, poor little worthless me? I cannot repay that sort of thing! I'm now more indebted)
 

NoID10ts

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I had never thought of it in a ritualistic way, but reflecting on it now, it was. Dark room, candles, depressing music, etc. it was very ritualistic even without recognizing it.

It seems there is something primitive within us that maybe we deeply desire to release. I've always thought that eventually we will reach a point with technology where we begin to revert back to old, less technological answers. Maybe many of the answers we seek have been there the whole time. How ironic would it be, to find these people that we consider primitive to have many of the answers we have been looking for all along?
 

Vrecknidj

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First, thank you to everyone who is participating in this thread. I've never done any of these sorts of things to myself. Everyone engages in some sorts of self-destructive behaviors, mine just haven't involved damaging my body in these ways. (Nor have they involved drug abuse, for me, but I digress.)

At one of the schools where I work, there is a cutting issue. I work at a private boarding school so there are some problems unique to this school that are not found in a public school setting. It's also a lot harder for the kids at this school to be in contact with long-term friends as they're almost all here from far away.

Having access to some folks' inner work on these issues gives me perspective. It may help with my ability to communicate with some of my students.

Second, I do have some experience with depression, both personally (on a mild level), and through my wife's depression (of the very, very severe and long-term variety). INTPs often turn to books, so, to stay on this topic just for a moment more, let me recommend this one: Compassion and Self-Hate by Theodore I. Rubin. It was, has been, and remains very influential in my wife's recovery and so I highly recommend it, just in case it's helpful to anyone else.

Dave
 

Zezon Vice

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To start, you all have already stated anything i could say. I myself have cut to release emotional pain, or maybe anger. I do get very angry and down with myself making my pain almost pleasurable. And at the time that i was cutting myself a lot (roughly a year ago) some friends began to notice them and ask, and when i had no answer, they only seemed to get angry with me. When someone i love found out, they werent mad, just upset and hurt. This helped me as this person had a great amount of influence over my emotions. It isnt all clear but in the end i stopped for a great time just because they found out. i was afraid to hurt them. Reacently though i broke down and did it again. But i dont think ill do it again for a while as i discovered how much one really values their own life when it is threatened. I know this helps no one. But i posted anyway.
 

Ex-User (221)

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There's just something incredibly calming about it.

When shit builds up to and extent where you just can't bottle it up any more and you can't express it in words the it's like the only other option is to bleed it out. And it works so well, you do it again, and again, and again... And before you know it you can't wear t-shirts aroung the house anymore in case someone notices.

I think, in me, it's a product of introversion. I just loathe myself and have plenty of time to dwell on it. I can't take it out on anyone else, so it's the natural thing to do.
 

Perseus

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I am positively NOT a self harmer. Never occurred to me as anything other than stupid.

Have you seen the film "The Secretary" ? which is meant to be classed as psychological, but it is boring soft porn.

I think more of murdering Cassiopeia than self harm.
 
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