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Scientific & Historical Exploration of Cultures, Religions, & the Sexes

Inexorable Username

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I have to go everyone!
@Serac - thanks for the company and the insightful bits of knowledge you were able to offer me for furthering my research on the theory!

@Kormak Thanks for engaging in the discussion! Sorry I couldn't get to absolutely everything you said - you just had so many points to make! I wish I had more time so I could address them all. Hope you had fun all the same!
 

Rebis

Blessed are the hearts that can bend
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Fair enough, I'd just end that the male female experience isn't wholly different from the male experience, and infact they're become reflections of another. Reflecting and mimicing the behaviour of the diametric leads to unity. Homosexuality was rare in the 1950s and now it's fairly common, was this an evolutionary rapid change or was it a product of us removing generalizations, with organic and natural behaviour following suit?

I'd say the same will follow suit with genders, either be desocializing the characteristics they asociate with a gender, or through socialization of gender equality. Generalizations are prospective/inductive, behaviours are deductive.

It is akin to the way we associate behaviours with star signs, they are not logically deduced, yet in some cases they could be valid. There's a limited amount of behaviours with infinite forms, genders could exhibit the behaviour you foreshadowed but they could also not. I question it's validity, I would say in the future people are becoming streams of consciousness through instant messaging, the internet and social media.
 

Inexorable Username

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Fair enough, I'd just end that the male female experience isn't wholly different from the male experience, and infact they're become reflections of another. Reflecting and mimicing the behaviour of the diametric leads to unity. Homosexuality was rare in the 1950s and now it's fairly common, was this an evolutionary rapid change or was it a product of us removing generalizations, with organic and natural behaviour following suit?

I'd say the same will follow suit with genders, either be desocializing the characteristics they asociate with a gender, or through socialization of gender equality. Generalizations are prospective/inductive, behaviours are deductive.

Sent from my VOG-L09 using Tapatalk

It’s actually uncanny how much I agree with you on that. I’ve identified probably at least 10 or 15 ways in which the female and male experience is insanely similar. (Males are afraid of being rejected, and so are females - the reasoning, slightly different)
There are far more ways, I think, in which we are the same - then ways in which we are different. Even sexual dimorphism isn’t nearly as major associate would have us believe insofar as differences are concerned.
Males and females both struggle for power. Males and females both use sexual manipulation. The list goes on and on.
So yes - we wholeheartedly agree on that. I also agree that if people could appreciate that apparent truth more readily, we could be more progressive as a society. Failing to realize that most certainly holds us back.

The only time I think generalizing for the sake of empathy can be highly useful is when males or females feel “at sea” when it comes to how the other is behaving. Why is she standoffish? Well, a generalization of her likely perspective/reasoning due derived from a perspective of what sociological experiences she is most likely to have been predisposed to... may help to form a decently strong hypothesis about her behavior. One which would have a higher chance of being - if not completely accurate - at least partially so. This is where when someone says “She didn’t respond to my advances” and someone else says “Maybe she didn’t want to lead you on” - generalizations can come in handy. If you know this is a likely possibility, then you’re less likely to infer her behavior as a rejection of your sexual appeal, for instance.
 

Rebis

Blessed are the hearts that can bend
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Fair enough, I'd just end that the male female experience isn't wholly different from the male experience, and infact they're become reflections of another. Reflecting and mimicing the behaviour of the diametric leads to unity. Homosexuality was rare in the 1950s and now it's fairly common, was this an evolutionary rapid change or was it a product of us removing generalizations, with organic and natural behaviour following suit?

I'd say the same will follow suit with genders, either be desocializing the characteristics they asociate with a gender, or through socialization of gender equality. Generalizations are prospective/inductive, behaviours are deductive.

Sent from my VOG-L09 using Tapatalk

It’s actually uncanny how much I agree with you on that. I’ve identified probably at least 10 or 15 ways in which the female and male experience is insanely similar. (Males are afraid of being rejected, and so are females - the reasoning, slightly different)
There are far more ways, I think, in which we are the same - then ways in which we are different. Even sexual dimorphism isn’t nearly as major associate would have us believe insofar as differences are concerned.
Males and females both struggle for power. Males and females both use sexual manipulation. The list goes on and on.
So yes - we wholeheartedly agree on that. I also agree that if people could appreciate that apparent truth more readily, we could be more progressive as a society. Failing to realize that most certainly holds us back.

The only time I think generalizing for the sake of empathy can be highly useful is when males or females feel “at sea” when it comes to how the other is behaving. Why is she standoffish? Well, a generalization of her likely perspective/reasoning due derived from a perspective of what sociological experiences she is most likely to have been predisposed to... may help to form a decently strong hypothesis about her behavior. One which would have a higher chance of being - if not completely accurate - at least partially so. This is where when someone says “She didn’t respond to my advances” and someone else says “Maybe she didn’t want to lead you on” - generalizations can come in handy. If you know this is a likely possibility, then you’re less likely to infer her behavior as a rejection of your sexual appeal, for instance.

I understand that, it seems generalization in this situation is in opposition to analysis: That is, it's easier for them to generalize information and therefore maintain self-esteem instead of burying themselves further. It is deceiving, but I guess people have to indulge in a white lie or two.... or three... or four.... tequila!
 

Inexorable Username

Well-Known Member
Local time
Today 4:42 PM
Joined
Nov 14, 2019
Messages
760
---
Fair enough, I'd just end that the male female experience isn't wholly different from the male experience, and infact they're become reflections of another. Reflecting and mimicing the behaviour of the diametric leads to unity. Homosexuality was rare in the 1950s and now it's fairly common, was this an evolutionary rapid change or was it a product of us removing generalizations, with organic and natural behaviour following suit?

I'd say the same will follow suit with genders, either be desocializing the characteristics they asociate with a gender, or through socialization of gender equality. Generalizations are prospective/inductive, behaviours are deductive.

Sent from my VOG-L09 using Tapatalk

It’s actually uncanny how much I agree with you on that. I’ve identified probably at least 10 or 15 ways in which the female and male experience is insanely similar. (Males are afraid of being rejected, and so are females - the reasoning, slightly different)
There are far more ways, I think, in which we are the same - then ways in which we are different. Even sexual dimorphism isn’t nearly as major associate would have us believe insofar as differences are concerned.
Males and females both struggle for power. Males and females both use sexual manipulation. The list goes on and on.
So yes - we wholeheartedly agree on that. I also agree that if people could appreciate that apparent truth more readily, we could be more progressive as a society. Failing to realize that most certainly holds us back.

The only time I think generalizing for the sake of empathy can be highly useful is when males or females feel “at sea” when it comes to how the other is behaving. Why is she standoffish? Well, a generalization of her likely perspective/reasoning due derived from a perspective of what sociological experiences she is most likely to have been predisposed to... may help to form a decently strong hypothesis about her behavior. One which would have a higher chance of being - if not completely accurate - at least partially so. This is where when someone says “She didn’t respond to my advances” and someone else says “Maybe she didn’t want to lead you on” - generalizations can come in handy. If you know this is a likely possibility, then you’re less likely to infer her behavior as a rejection of your sexual appeal, for instance.

I understand that, it seems generalization in this situation is in opposition to analysis: That is, it's easier for them to generalize information and therefore maintain self-esteem instead of burying themselves further. It is deceiving, but I guess people have to indulge in a white lie or two.... or three... or four.... tequila!

A lie? And tequila?! Yes, tequila makes liars of us all. (Sorry, this reference is a woosh for me.)

No...I don’t think the generalization is a lie. It’s a paradigm. Essentially, it a a point to process. A thing be regarded as a thesis to be proven or disproven as more information presents itself.

The reasoning may go something like:
(1) Most females appear to be sensitive about their appearance.
(2) This female asked me if she looks fat in this dress.

(A) I lack information: I will be gentle with my response.
(B) I know this female: She would prefer that I give her an honest opinion about her dress.

————

It’s not, however, a lie that most females are sensitive about their appearance.

That also doesn’t mean that it will always be true, either. The generalization isn’t a philosophy about the truth of life. It’s a simple observation that, lacking a qualifier as to the time period in which it should apply, would be applied in the modern day and age.

So the generalization becomes:
In the modern day and age, most females are sensitive about their appearance.

That obviously doesn’t mean that all of them are...and of course, any generalization that someone makes is subjective unless proven otherwise, and therefore, should be treated as though it may be incorrect.

So, again, it doesn’t excuse the researcher from conducting further research. However, without a generalization, there is no topic to research to begin with.

One of the things we clearly agree on, Rebis, is the fact that the public greatly misuses and misinterprets generalizations.
People really do have a tendency to use generalizations to fabricate illogical labels which they use to discriminate.

The line between discrimination and generalizations is so easily crossed, that I think you’re absolutely right to say that generalizations should always be discussed within the proper context. We actually have to say “You still have to learn about this girl”. It seems like you shouldn’t have to - but drop a generalization on someone and they’re likely to add it to their dogma and start chanting it like a spiritual epiphany at the stroke of 12 while they sacrifice black cats to their pagan god.

There’s a few things we appear to lack in education at the moment...I think in the EU as well as the USA.

We lack classes on rhetoric and logic. We have “critical thinking”, but it appears to be poorly conducted and mostly involves writing terrible persuasive essays which are more of an exercise in learning language and writing skills s

We also need a class to teach scientific comprehension. In the US, we learn things like the periodic table - an utter waste for most students. Students should be learning about what science, philosophy, and math are, the fundamentals of each, how they are studied, how they are applied, and how to find valid resources for each...as well as some basic skills for how to properly interpret the information.
 

Rebis

Blessed are the hearts that can bend
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If the subject is defining behaviour of humans, I think we should either think in the full macro of human exhibited behaviour instead of segregating to composite genders, or going to the core psychological qualities that present said behaviour. A macro theory or a micro one, Gender lies somewhere inbetween.

It's hard to prove/disprove theories based on concepts of gender, it changes with each epoch and has changed at a crazy rate in the last 100 years. So the thesis essentially becomes an irrefutable statement based on the ubiquity of variables. In that regard it is so easy to make a statement that's convincing about gender/behavioural roles, it could literally slip off your tongue:

"Females have more body to fat ratio because if a predator attacks then the lion will have more food to eating allowing the progeny to flee"
"Females have a higher body-to-fat ratio to keep themselves warm during times of pregnancy as to not deprive the baby of heat/essential nutrients"
"Females have a higher body-to-fat ratio because they are not the hunters so can go longer without food by converting body fat"
"Females have a higher body-fat ratio because saturated fat was a rare resource in primitive times so males would associate the body proportions of the woman with desire"

All of these are logically sound through attribution which makes behavioural science such an easy indulgence among anyone that can piece variable x and y together with a few words and an anecdote.

In terms of quantifiers people seem to use statistics in non-statistical ways, I seen a post a while back saying how experts have a tendency to vastly over/underestimate expectations rather than being precise. Some people will say AGI is 10 years away, others 100. We like using probability when we don't actually evaluate all the probabilities, let alone more than 2 (My statement is true or it's not, 50/50 chance heh)

I think it'd be best to discuss them on the individual level, or at least within a contextual framework. Instead of "males objectify women" Maybe just apply it to the male you can use as anecdotal evidence, maybe piece together a few of his behaviours you gathered from insight and then we get a full insighftul picture. "All males objectify women" would just rile up half of the population. While you may have used it as a generalization, you repeat information enough and people will start to believe it, or at least operate on the condition that there is validity to the statement.

"All males objectify women"
"That's not true, I Don't"
"All males objectify women"
"Hey C'mon now, I- "
"All males objectify women" x 20

After a while it conditions the male to actually believe its true, or oppose it. The inbetween is where the male externally agrees but internally strifes with himself. He doesn't feel comfortable saying he doesn't objectify women because that's the role people have assigned him.

You tell a lie for long enough and people assume its true, this is unbeknownst to us when we find out urban myths 10 years later that aren't actually true. This can happen the same way with these roles, maybe the male didn't objectify women but now he thinks he does, an internal strife goes through his head. He becomes increasing inobjectionable, emphasizing it in every conversation that his behaviour becomes artificial, in which case people see him as having something to prove, a token of insecure people. The sad part is it's very easy to make generalizations, and downright insensitive to the diversity of forms behaviour can take, but it's hard to consistently oppose these types of worldviews, it's solely an individual battle, fighting against all that which doesn't define them, and yet they continue in the face of this nonsensical adversity.

Why not isolate behaviours to the individual itself? it makes the transmission of social roles less contagious, you compartmentalize the behaviour in the individual. Gerard is an asshole, Tanya is a bitch, Dan is a fuckboi, Zara is manipulative. No one else feels associative guilt from this. Everybody is just trying to control everybody else through these roles and it's just destructive.

Critical thinking would be good but education isn't about the individual anymore it's about getting a job. Infact, it probably has been about that the whole time.
 

Kormak

The IT barbarian - eNTP - 6w7-4-8 so/sx
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Once again, I'm not proposing we made changes to society. I'm just proposing a different way of looking at things. If we accept that we were wrong in our assumptions about evolutionary biology, then we should also accept that we might have been wrong about the theories of how society should be structured, which stemmed from it. The greatest of them probably being the concept of monogamy.

But... monogamy makes sense in terms of why men and women get together: kids. You have to remember that after a while the goal is no longer just hedonism or love. People who base a marriage on mere attraction are destined for divorce as love fades, it always does. In my experience attraction lasts 3 years, 4 tops. Enough time to make one or a couple of kids ad breastfeed them. That is kind of the limit of mammalian instinct lol.

Your parents had to feed you, provide shelter, teach you, put you through an expensive education, socialize you and expend resources in case you got sick and so on. This is a massive amount of resource investment, time, stress and personal sacrifices.. it requires something else. Once kids are involved, the needs of the parents become secondary. We are not like animals, ppl aren't mature until they hit their early 20s. I certainly wasn't stable and fully aware of things until age 24, even if at the time I thought otherwise. A stable family unit in a stable community with available commons & access to information is necessary. I see this in my parents who are still together, they squabble, sure, but to me, it always felt like they were best friends or something. Considering all the crap they went through together in life I'm amazed they haven't divorced, considering neither of them is religious.

Back in the hunter-gatherer days, the world was much simpler. The resource investment was significantly less. Most of these laws & practices are in place to protect children and ensure the male participates in raising the offspring.

A monogamic bond strongly favors the evolution of male investment in the raising of offspring, as is the case in most birds (90% of bird species are monogamic and most exhibit biparental care of young). Mammals exhibit this type of behavior to a far lesser extent (female mammals monopolize the feeding of newly born young). Most male mammals do not look after their offspring; humans are an exception in this respect.

Source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12685340

It may be something we are evolving out of necessity due to the degree of resource investment required, despite it not being the norm for the species.

Polygamy is the overall norm for humans tho. Specifically, one rich high-status male and many wives raising his kids together in a commune. (males manifest mate-guarding behavior / aggression towards other males) <== this practice, however, creates a LOT of incels which raises the potential for civil unrest.

e_e the idea of her being with another man is disgusting to me at least. I'd be more inclined to kill him or leave her tbh.. expending resources to raise a rival's kids sucks, only in modern times do we have paternity tests, before this there would be no way of making sure I'm not being screwed over by her and one of the other guys. 100% chance for anger, social conflict, violence that needs to be regulated yet again.

Source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12496732

I'm not fond of the idea of creating more supreme gentlemen.

4788
 

Black Rose

An unbreakable bond
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Monogamy is part of K selection, you invest all your resources into the quality of the few children you have. In the first world, the replacement rate is 2.1 kids. Polygamy is r selective, you have as many kids as possible hoping as many of them will survive as possible. In the third world, the birthrate is about 7 kids per woman. Women there lack resources.

r/K selection theory

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R/K_selection_theory
 

Kormak

The IT barbarian - eNTP - 6w7-4-8 so/sx
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Monogamy is part of K selection, you invest all your resources into the quality of the few children you have. In the first world, the replacement rate is 2.1 kids. Polygamy is r selective, you have as many kids as possible hoping as many of them will survive as possible. In the third world, the birthrate is about 7 kids per woman. Women there lack resources.

r/K selection theory

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R/K_selection_theory

:cutewhitekitten: and again, you have gr8 insight into another subject!

<.< I like the way you think. thumbsup R and K selection is fascinating. Wolves are monogamous too, a K selected species. Sheep are not, polygamy where the strongest male wins access to females. Predators like wolves ensure the genetic health of animals like sheep, by hunting down and eating those individuals that are weak. Without this, the R selected sheep would face a genetic disaster and quickly exhaust their environment.

I think I'm K selected, at least based on this.
 
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