# Sales/marketing

#### pianofire

##### Redshirt
has anyone here worked in sales/marketing? How do/did you feel about it?

I currently work at a health food company doing marketing and telesales. ITS THE BEST JOB IVE EVER HAD. The job style is very much hit the ground running, teach yourself kind of thing and there's lots of independent working. I LOVE the behind the scenes work (I do quite a bit of graphic design, event planning and website building) . I don't even mind socialising with colleagues and regular customers (chameleon trait ftw!) but I HATE the sales side of things. I get cold sweats when I get to work and see a memo from my boss to do some cold calling. I feel like such a phony and I avoid it like the plague... To only get stressed that I'll get fired for not doing enough work. Even so, much to my amusement, I just keep getting more and more responsibilities as I obviously come off as competent. It's pretty great yet terrifying at the same time to know that at any point they may realise I'm just really good at pretending to look busy!

Anyone else had a similar experience? Tell me bout it.

Ps. Sorry about spelling and punctuation, I'm posting this on my phone which has a very cracked screen AND I'm a bit drunk. La di da.

#### pianofire

##### Redshirt
I think one of the main things I hate about sales is that I know so much about the products but struggle to put it into verbal words without rambling. My coworkers think I'm funny because I'm such a scatter brain but I suspect potential customers are off put by this eccentricity.

#### TMills27

##### beep
Quietly designing an ad or flyer wouldn't be so bad. But I guess that's more going into graphic design artists.

#### pianofire

##### Redshirt
Quietly designing an ad or flyer wouldn't be so bad. But I guess that's more going into graphic design artists.
Yeah I'm basically s graphic designer getting paid as a telemarketer.

#### TMills27

##### beep
I've been interviewed for a telemarketing position. I was quickly declined because I wasn't (and this is the exact word they used) "bubbly" enough.

What a hit to my self-esteem.

#### redbaron

##### but why
I can't wait for the whole perception of people needing to be "bubbly" in order to sell things to expire. It's so fucking stupid.

#### Pyropyro

##### Magos Biologis
I've been interviewed for a telemarketing position. I was quickly declined because I wasn't (and this is the exact word they used) "bubbly" enough.

What a hit to my self-esteem.
I can relate. Although mine was for a call center position.

#### pianofire

##### Redshirt
Ugh "bubbly" has got to be the worst invention of 21st century human resources. I feel like this is my problem though, I'm too serious and to the point. I have no natural ability to chit chat which is such a massive part of sales. Sometimes I even forget to say goodbye on the phone haha.

#### TheManBeyond

##### Banned
well if it gets to that point you should re evaluate yourself ^

#### pianofire

##### Redshirt
Meh, it's better than hospitality!

#### Cognisant

##### Condescending Bastard
Sales is an interesting thing, simply selling as much as you can isn't always the best idea for example you can hype up customers by telling them things about a product which may not technically wrong but are stretching the truth, this makes the sale but disappoints the customer in the long run. Now if you're selling cars this doesn't matter so much because people don't buy cars very often but if you're selling office supplies in a inner city store getting your customers to come back time and again is far more valuable than any single purchase.

#### Analyzer

##### Hide thy life
copywriting, direct marketing

#### pianofire

##### Redshirt
copywriting, direct marketing
How is copywriting? That is something I was thinking about doing.

#### computerhxr

##### Village Idiot
Cold calling is the worst. You can convince people to do anything when they are under pressure and have little time to react. It's totally unethical in most situations and the epitome of marketing.

Copywriting is something that can vary widely. In its simplest terms, it just means that you write content with intent to sell. To be good at it is an entirely different ball game.

I do a lot of marketing consulting and I build B2B marketing applications.

The stuff that works the best is the opposite of what worked in the last marketing generation. Most businesses are a generation behind. If it makes sense, then it's probably ineffective. It should be counter intuitive for the most part.

Persuasive psychology is the key to the whole thing. Knowing the market and the customer helps a lot as well.

In copywriting, it's best to write for several different types of buyers. Some people like to learn about specs, some like to see what they are about to buy, some need a story, some need to smell, taste, or feel the product. Yes, you have to make them taste the product with words, so give them a way to imagine the situation. Hit on past experiences that you know the market has been through.

Focus on pains and release of pains. Sell them on wants, and spend little time on needs.

Always give the buyer focus. Don't give them too many options or information because it will give them more to think about and then they give up. Usually two options is optimal.

Upsells earn more $than the initial sale. Get them in cheap, and once they are committed, then you can start gradually selling them more and more through a nurturing process. Typically, people won't buy until something like the 9th contact. So it's better to form a relationship and pre-qualify buyers. Then when they indicate interest, you strike. It's a trust building relationship. Split testing and market automation is always good. Just try some stuff out and improve marketing over time. When marketing on mobile, don't use re-sizable UI. It sells better with static tabled content. I know, it's against your core but it's what works best. That's pretty much the basics of what I know. I hope if gives you a good place to start. Good luck! #### pianofire ##### Redshirt Upsells earn more$ than the initial sale. Get them in cheap, and once they are committed, then you can start gradually selling them more and more through a nurturing process.
If I've learnt anything at all, this is it. I always find it so funny that potential customers will be using a different supplier to save like 2 cents on a product but once you bring them over to your company, they end up spending 1000s more than they would have with the previous supplier.

The average person is so incredibly irrational that it never ceases to amaze me how far we have come as a species.

#### EditorOne

##### Prolific Member
Cold calling:
1. Develop a script and stick to it.
2. When the customer says "yes", STOP TALKING.
3. Undersell and overdeliver. "No, I'm not going to promise you you'll get a penny because insurance companies are tough and this one already told you 'no.' I'm going to promise you we'll force the insurance company to address all the property damage issues you found and we've found, that's all." Even when you know they'll probably get \$10,000 once the insurer sees the law and the facts lining up against his company, you don't promise a thing.

If you believe in you product or service, it's a lot easier to muster up visible enthusiasm, which is a more refined form of "bubbly." "Bubbly" just conjures an image of mindless efforvescence. It may indeed be a form of virtue, but not in my world. I like to have a logical reason for feeling good.

#### pianofire

##### Redshirt
When the customer says "yes", STOP TALKING.
Can you explain this a bit more for me?

"Bubbly" just conjures an image of mindless efforvescence. It may indeed be a form of virtue, but not in my world. I like to have a logical reason for feeling good.
I wholeheartedly agree with this and to be honest, I feel like a lot of our products are a load of crap. There's no way anyone is ever going to convince me that coconut water is more hydrating than H2O, nor that swilling coconut oil around in your mouth will rid the body of toxins - the science is simply not there... but that's the beauty of sales - idiots will buy anything and the world is full of those guys hahaha.

#### computerhxr

##### Village Idiot
When the customer says "yes", STOP TALKING.
Can you explain this a bit more for me?
Unless you are creating a yes-set.

He's saying that you can lose a sale by talking too much. Once you've sold a customer, you're done, don't screw it up.

This is what I think of cold calling ...

#### Blarraun

##### straightedgy
Can you explain this a bit more for me?
If a customer made up their mind, they don't need any more of your energy to push them, unless you are sure you can sell them more things relying on a good vibe it's acceptable to proceed with the trade.

All the good lines (tricks, arguments, etc.) were used and by talking any more you might sound like trying too hard, annoying, introduce doubt by mentioning details of the transaction or make your customer interested in another product instead. Especially true with wary customers that don't really know what they look for (read: ~50% of all customers)

From the purely efficiency-oriented point of view, you would be wasting time discussing an already sold product. Even more applicable when you don't expect the customer to return or to appreciate all your effort.

This is definitely not always true, there are people who want to be flattered or hear that they've made a great choice, or just want to hear you maintain conversation and focus your attention on them for whatever reason.

Many variables and many simplifications.

Or at least that's what I've learned from my more recent experiences.

I'd guess that's what was implied by Editor.

#### vlassicisgood

##### Member
There is no such thing as turning a no into a yes. There is a such thing as turning a fence sitter into a yes.

#### EditorOne

##### Prolific Member
Blaurrun and computerhxr got it: I have watched sales people continue to pitch a product or service after a customer has agreed, and lose the sale, for a variety of reasons. But it essentially boils down to saying something that changes their mind. I didn't literally mean "stop talking," I meant "stop pitching." More talk might be necessary to get shipping information, timing arrangements, where you're taking your new client to dinner, whether the Eagles will throw away their future to get Mariota, etc.

An example in my world, public insurance adjusting: You've got the client signed up so we can handle their insurance claim, then your partner feels compelled to point out that we win 95 percent of our lawsuits. This is the first the client has heard the word "lawsuit," and immediately gets cold feet. It's a gratuitous and largely irrelevant comment, too, because we rarely need to get to a lawsuit to get money out of an insurance company, even if they initially balked at paying or offered too little. OK, so we're good at court stuff, but to the client "court" raises the stakes by several orders of magnitude.

#### The Oracle

##### we are all here to do what we are all here to do
has anyone here worked in sales/marketing? How do/did you feel about it?

I currently work at a health food company doing marketing and telesales. ITS THE BEST JOB IVE EVER HAD. The job style is very much hit the ground running, teach yourself kind of thing and there's lots of independent working. I LOVE the behind the scenes work (I do quite a bit of graphic design, event planning and website building) . I don't even mind socialising with colleagues and regular customers (chameleon trait ftw!) but I HATE the sales side of things. I get cold sweats when I get to work and see a memo from my boss to do some cold calling. I feel like such a phony and I avoid it like the plague... To only get stressed that I'll get fired for not doing enough work. Even so, much to my amusement, I just keep getting more and more responsibilities as I obviously come off as competent. It's pretty great yet terrifying at the same time to know that at any point they may realise I'm just really good at pretending to look busy!

Anyone else had a similar experience? Tell me bout it.

Ps. Sorry about spelling and punctuation, I'm posting this on my phone which has a very cracked screen AND I'm a bit drunk. La di da.
The INTP personality has the potential to become the very best salesperson, given the cold analytical nature and inhibition of outwardly expressed feelings. Thus a mature INTP who has mastered extraverted feeling will do very well, because he/she can control his/her feelings and express the feelings that is needed to manipulate the client. However, long term, it is not a good career path, because more often than not, the nature of sales loses its novelty after 6 months, then becomes very repetitive and boring (cold calling, as you mentioned, is the foundation of sales, unless you're getting fed warm leads all day long-- and even so, you still have to follow up with the warm leads, which pretty much boils down to warm/cold calling). An INTJ is more likely to stick with something long term, mastering and perfecting one's craft. An INTP is likely to get bored, and go onto sales within a different industry, rather than sticking to the same industry.

The majority of INTPs will start out horribly at sales, not understanding the minutia of small talk etc etc. But then, after understanding the process, will become great with practice.

#### The Oracle

##### we are all here to do what we are all here to do
There is no such thing as turning a no into a yes. There is a such thing as turning a fence sitter into a yes.
I must vehemently disagree with this comment. Persistence proves my point. There is such a thing as timing. Maybe one day, a person has no need for a SuperWidget. But, you call this person once-a-month, every month, and one day, he has a need for a widget. Who do you think he is going to call? The persistent bastard who has called him every month for a whole year? yes.

Home sales. You get the "just listed" and "just sold" postcards in the mail from the neighborhoods #1 listing agent... you may not be in the market to sell your home for 10 years. But the day you do, who do you think you're going to call?

It literally takes 10 "no's" to get a yes. I understand that when someone says "no" they may just be a fence sitter. But, most of the time people buy things on emotion. Emotions can be changed. You can convince someone that they NEED something, whereas before your sales pitch, they had no idea that NEED existed.

Take the iPhone for example. You did not know you needed an iPhone before the iPhone was invented.

#### Justin81

##### Member
I sold cars in my mid 20's for a few years. We used to have these "special teams" comprised of the country's best car salesmen come in for the "Big sales." These guys were head hunters trained to suck the blood from any living creature willing to touch the blacktop at our dealer. They always drove Mercedes and wore Farrigamo shoes and reeked of success. Before each sale they would hold big meetings. They would basically tell us how to forget everything we know about life and ditch all of our morals in order to make a lot of money in 3 days. As much as I hoped those guys would all burn in hell some day I can't say I didn't learn a lot. They taught us about a psychological "4 square" model that basically tied the hands behind your back to pay ridiculous prices for used cars. I learned all about the "Shut UP" methods and stuff like that.

When I realized there's money in sales and I really excel in "Product Knowledge" I decided to pursue sales in something that is my passion. I found a place in a drag racing parts shop. I literally make triple what the other 3 guys make in there and now I hold the meetings and teach these people how to increase sales and make profit. Sales is an awesome place to blow peoples minds with your passion and knowledge. I use the aggressive methods I grew up with to slay unsuspecting people today. I don't do any cold calling stuff and If I do I'm doing people a favor by approaching them with our stuff. There always glad to hear from me.

To me sales is 90% of human interaction. I always wanted to get this image tattooed across my back real big because I think of it almost every day when dealing with humans and life.

#### keren

##### Redshirt
Sales is an interesting thing, simply selling as much as you can isn't always the best idea for example you can hype up customers by telling them things about a product which may not technically wrong but are stretching the truth, this makes the sale but disappoints the customer in the long run. Now if you're selling cars this doesn't matter so much because people don't buy cars very often but if you're selling office supplies in a inner city store getting your customers to come back time and again is far more valuable than any single purchase.

Hello,

Thanks for the post.

#### Reluctantly

##### Resident disMember
I hate the idea of selling. A product should sell itself by filling a need or want. All the salesman should do is facilitate that; not try to sell people what they don't need or want or try to sell it for more than it's worth. That just makes dealing with other people a fucking unpleasant hassle and everyone starts getting this idea that selling, either as a buyer or seller, means someone is supposed to get screwed. I would hate sales.