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Roots of INTP "lazyness"

Redfire

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Are we lazy? Some people like to watch TV all day, and avoid any kind of mental effort. Those people are lazy. In my view, what we see as laziness is not really laziness at all.

We don't want to act. If we acted, we would have standards, we would want to do it in a certain way, we would want to do it right. But to do it right, we have to go through a long process of research, analysis, coming with conclusions, etc; and we just wonder if it's truly worth it in the long run.

This is not always the case, of course, sometimes we are just plain lazy, but I think that deep down it's much more complex. Maybe we don't feel like living, we don't think that doing things properly is worth it.

My thinking is that if we analyze this, maybe we can at least understand this phenomena.

What do you think?

(by the way, I know I'm generalizing, but that's the way it works. INTPs usually find these kind of problems, and I'm just wondering why.
Also, I spelled the title wrong. Damn me.
Lastly, this old topic adressed a similar thing, though not the same: http://www.intpforum.com/showthread.php?t=9986&highlight=laziness)
 

HDINTP

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If i speak for myself then i would say i consider things i already know like it is a drag. And how you say we analyse in order to do it right well at least we think that way. Can we actually say we are sometimes lost in number of possibilities? And yes i think one day we can find something like an answer. And we also like developing new methods some people may say we think too much. I think that in the end when we think through process in our head then we eventually come to conclusion we don't have to do it in reality. We also never stop thinking. So tell me even if you rest you still have something that goes through your mind don't you? The problem i see is that even if you think you have already understood something we will never get to know if we are right will we? We will be just in an ilussion i think. And our behavior is not conventional is it?
 

Synthetix

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Our minds are anything but lazy. Our energy goes mostly towards thinking, so doing is something that others may not see in us. We can do, but we are too busy thinking. Human brains require a higher percentage of produced energy from the body than other mammals, and a human that thinks more than average (INTP) will require even more of the bodies energy to fuel the brain. We think so much, and it can leave us too exhausted for every day routines and tasks.
 

Redfire

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Our minds are anything but lazy. Our energy goes mostly towards thinking, so doing is something that others may not see in us. We can do, but we are too busy thinking. Human brains require a higher percentage of produced energy from the body than other mammals, and a human that thinks more than average (INTP) will require even more of the bodies energy to fuel the brain. We think so much, and it can leave us too exhausted for every day routines and tasks.

Interesting. I never thought about it that way.

What I mean with all of this, is that if an INTP wants to do something concerning the outside world (planet earth, humanity), and live a life outside his bedroom; he needs to do lots of stuff.

But now that I think your way, it just goes down to energy. Diet, exercise and sleep are the main sources of energy. Then, it comes down to cutting out all energy consuming useless things, which are countless. Finally, directing existing energy to the accomplishing of tasks that eventually lead to an objective.
 

EditorOne

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Lazyness is a value-laden word, usually used by people who associate a high activity level with virtue. Even when it's the kind of activity you see from one of those little bugs that moves its legs furiously going across a mud puddle and gets nowhere.

I'm not accusing you, red, of using a value-laden word. I'm just pointing out that we (INTP) aren't innately compelled to defend ourselves, it comes about because others see something about us that they assign a negative value to.

If there is no point to an activity, I don't do it. That doesn't make me lazy. It makes me sensible.

I can see a point to a great many activities, even if it's stacking wood for the fireplace or walking for the sake of exercise, neither of which has much brainwork going for it. But the list of things I see no point to would probably be a great deal longer than most people's, especially work-related activities that might have had a point in 1980 but are now being done "because we always do it this way."

This comes up a lot. I find myself right now up against a mindset that thinks I should do something in a way that takes longer and involves more work simply because a few folks associate longer and harder with "better." Fortunately I can, if they persist, simply shake my head and leave them to waste their time any way they want. :)
 

Architect

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Lazyness is a value-laden word, usually used by people who associate a high activity level with virtue. Even when it's the kind of activity you see from one of those little bugs that moves its legs furiously going across a mud puddle and gets nowhere.

...

If there is no point to an activity, I don't do it. That doesn't make me lazy. It makes me sensible.

Well said. I've made points at my job because I'm really good at finding reasons not to do work. For example, a bug or feature request is filed. The sensors immediately start figuring out how to solve it. I sit back and come up with reasons not to. Such as, it won't matter in a few months because of other work, it's not going to add a lot of value, or the request is too ill-defined to be actionable anyhow. Or there is a simple work around. Managers love this because overall our productivity goes up.

This sentiment comes mainly from the Sensor side of the house. They like action - doing, over and over. Turn the crank, just do something. there is nothing wrong with that, if world was run by intuitive's then we would all probably be killed eventually by a virus caught from a dirty telephone.

This post was dictated, not typed. I love figuring out ways to get the computer to do work for me.
 

Rakshasa

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Thinking grants me a world of infinite possibilities. It's a place where everything I've ever learned can be tested against itself, and be built into a functioning model. In my skull is a world as it should be. (In my humble opinion, of course.) Leaving my internal world for the slowly progressing, and miserable outer world seems like a drag. Admittedly it is sometimes necessary, and often more fun than I like to admit. But it's usually a bore.

Lazy is a subjective concept, and is usually poorly measured.
 

shortbuss

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My thinking is that if we analyze this, maybe we can at least understand this phenomena.

This, IMO, is why the laziness problem often occurs. We would rather rationalize our thoughts than act on them. Personally, I know I can use analysis as a crutch to explain things that bother me in life. I will generate theories and roll my head all day until it's dark and i haven't done anything.
 

Redfire

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This, IMO, is why the laziness problem often occurs. We would rather rationalize our thoughts than act on them. Personally, I know I can use analysis as a crutch to explain things that bother me in life. I will generate theories and roll my head all day until it's dark and i haven't done anything.

You are very right, sir. I thought about that just before posting, but I still think it's an interesting problem worth analyzing. However, the answers previously given seem good enough for me.
Also, I think we are just not really that productive to a certain extent. It's simple really, types such as INTJs enjoy working and reaching goals (which are often intellectual). We don't. We are more likely to be creative though, which is also an important trait.

Also, you could argue productivity is a relative concept, and that stopping to do homework to think about an idea that just came up will in the long run benefit your work, or your career. It really depends on what exactly are you doing though.
 

Philosophyking87

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A simple understanding of cognitive functions might help here. Essentially, people are either governed by judging functions or perceiving functions in either their inner or outer world. Judging functions consist of thinking and feeling, while perceiving functions consist of sensing and intuition. For those with extraverted judging functions (Fe and Te), the external world will be a place of structure and organization. For those with extraverted perceiving functions (Se and Ne), the external world will be a place to primarily gather more and more information, which often results in procrastination, indecisiveness, and a lack of action. For those with introverted judging functions (Ti and Fi), organization and order will occur within the mind, in the inner world of either thought or feeling. For those with introverted perceiving functions (Si and Ni), the inner world of the mind is where new information is constantly taken in.

Given people often have both an extraverted and introverted set of judging and perceiving functions (called the dominant and auxiliary), a person will either come off (out in the external world) as either organized and orderly or indecisive, low energy, and unstructured. Those who come off low energy and unstructured (Ne and Se) will often have introverted judging functions (Fi and Ti). Those who come off organized and orderly (Fe and Te) will often have introverted perceiving functions (Ni and Si). Ultimately, those with extraverted judging functions are known as "Judgers," while those with extraverted perceiving functions are known as "Perceivers." Hence, judging and perception.

Thus, as INTPs with introverted thinking (Ti) as our primary function and extraverted intuition (Ne) as our auxiliary function, we will engage with the outside world in a very unstructured, low energy, non-serious manner. But in the inner world, within our minds, there will exist lots of rumination, organization, order, and structure, as we constantly take the information coming from our Ne and endlessly attempt to make sense of it, in a way which is very grand and coherent. Hence, we often called "The Architects." We love to build thought.

So basically, as we have an extraverted perceiving function (Ne), we will simply engage with the outside world in a way that is very laid back, unstructured, and so open to starting projects that we tend to never finish them. This basically explains our often extremely low energy, where we can manage to sit around for hours doing nothing, while work perhaps seems like a dreadful chore (and clearly, this explains our often lack of work ethic). And yes, because we have introverted thinking, we will often think for hours and hours trying to solve problems and work out schemes rather than actually go out and take action immediately. As a result, we are not "doers." We are thinkers.

And as far as I know, introverted thinkers are often notoriously known for "explaining away unnecessary work." This is a hallmark of introverted thinking, as this cognitive function is aimed towards doing the most with the least amount of effort. Here's how it's specifically worded by a well-known cognitive function test: "Apply leverage to a situation to solve a problem impersonally using minimal effort." Essentially, if we don't see the logical need to do something, we'll scrap it, and we'll stand by our decision while everyone else continues to believe action is needed.

Also, there's a facetious movie about Einstein as a young man in which a series of problems are occurring in his immediate environment. But as everyone else is panicking and running around frantically, he is just sitting there, thinking in silence. His girlfriend then says, "l'm sick of brains! All this thinking all the time. Think, think, think. I want a man who will do something."

And that... is pretty much INTPs in a nutshell. Are we lazy? Yes. Is it a bad thing? While it isn't a good thing to be lazy, we simply often lack the energy and psychological inclination necessary for organization and meaningful action. So I can understand why humans use the word "lazy" in a pejorative fashion, as it's clearly a detriment to humanity. But in the end, we should not feel bad about the fact that we just aren't the type of people, generally speaking, who organize and implement. We are very low energy thinkers who often work in worlds of abstraction -- not reality. And I don't know about most of you, but I'm the laziest person I know. Putting mental energy towards even the most basic task if I really find it to be of absolutely no interest??? Hell no. I get others to do it. Having physical energy to clean all day? Hell no. I shirk my physical duties all day. Thinking, thinking, and more thinking within my head for no actual practical purpose at all? That's all I do.
 

Pyropyro

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And as far as I know, introverted thinkers are often notoriously known for "explaining away unnecessary work." This is a hallmark of introverted thinking, as this cognitive function is aimed towards doing the most with the least amount of effort. Here's how it's specifically worded by a well-known cognitive function test: "Apply leverage to a situation to solve a problem impersonally using minimal effort." Essentially, if we don't see the logical need to do something, we'll scrap it, and we'll stand by our decision while everyone else continues to believe action is needed.

So true:D
 

Philosophyking87

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Yeah, anything "non-essential" in life -- especially unessential work -- has to go!
Only the essentials.
 

Architect

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Thinking, thinking, and more thinking within my head for no actual practical purpose at all? That's all I do.

I like working with computers - 'working', in a sense. I spend my time figuring out how to get the computer to do tedium work, while I'm gathering information.

I have also found that buckling down and doing some hard work - coding, once a day provides a sense of satisfaction - and coding is really thinking and problem solving. Just like writing or other similar activity. At this point in my life I think if I just sat around thinking all the time I'd go crazy. I need some productive output, or I just dive into my belly button and get lost.

I've heard this from other INTP's too, and there is also the camp that doesn't want to produce anything.
 

Yet

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I have a weird work rythm. I do a hell of a lot when I am in a natural flow but cannot put myself to tedious stuff. I linger untill it really needs doing... and then I work for hours at an end in a crazy rythm untill it is done.

It boils down to lots of periods of pratting around & outbursts of manic-work-behaviour. And in between actual flows of diving into something I like producing.

In all it does make me feel a bit lazy I guess.
 

MsAnthropy_Indefatigably

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I have a weird work rythm. I do a hell of a lot when I am in a natural flow but cannot put myself to tedious stuff. I linger untill it really needs doing... and then I work for hours at an end in a crazy rythm untill it is done.

It boils down to lots of periods of pratting around & outbursts of manic-work-behaviour. And in between actual flows of diving into something I like producing.

In all it does make me feel a bit lazy I guess.

EXACTLY

I go thru feeling like I have ADD and can't focus the way I should, but instead of spacing out to several other things, I focus back on the same tedious, minuscule problem where I still can't find resolve and go back to trying to work, but always rethinking my other insignificant task and how to properly fix it NOW!!
 

Moocow

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I view myself, and possibly the INTP type as the artillery in a battle. I've also been playing too much world of tanks.

We're the artillery because we take a really long time to load and for the most part we just sit there trying to figure out the most precise, effective angle to point ourselves. When the opportunity comes and we feel sure enough of the target, we fire a whopping huge shell that clears the field in one blast. We might only fire a few shells in the entire battle but it's those few shells that can change the course of the game.
After a shell has been fired it's not just that we want to sit around and do nothing for another 30 minutes, it's that we HAVE to. Expending all of our energy at once means we'll inevitably have our weak, vulnerable, and immobile phases where the reloading and readjustment happens. Plus, if we never get around to firing a shot it's probably because the target isn't worth the price of the ammo.
Does it look lazy? It won't look lazy when your ass is pinned and the only thing that can save you is a shell bigger than your mother coming from a location you can't even see.
 

CoffeeBreak

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I read thought this thread and i realized i'm not the only one whos "lazy" here (according to parents and friends of course).

Something i find interesting, is that Einstein probably was an INTP just like us. He had a job where the work itself was easy; it didn't require too much thought which meant that he could think about what HE wanted to because the work itself didn't require focus.

Not sure about you, but this helped me alot.
 

EyeSeeCold

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I view myself, and possibly the INTP type as the artillery in a battle. I've also been playing too much world of tanks.

We're the artillery because we take a really long time to load and for the most part we just sit there trying to figure out the most precise, effective angle to point ourselves. When the opportunity comes and we feel sure enough of the target, we fire a whopping huge shell that clears the field in one blast. We might only fire a few shells in the entire battle but it's those few shells that can change the course of the game.
After a shell has been fired it's not just that we want to sit around and do nothing for another 30 minutes, it's that we HAVE to. Expending all of our energy at once means we'll inevitably have our weak, vulnerable, and immobile phases where the reloading and readjustment happens. Plus, if we never get around to firing a shot it's probably because the target isn't worth the price of the ammo.
Does it look lazy? It won't look lazy when your ass is pinned and the only thing that can save you is a shell bigger than your mother coming from a location you can't even see.

Nice analogy, I agree.
 

Obrens

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I think none of you got it right. What's stopping us from doing stuff is thinking about it. Think about a time when you had to do something brave. You were able to do it only when/if you stopped thinking about it. Think about a time you had to get up in order to get the remote or whatever. If you thought about how nice it would be if it just appeared in your hand, then getting up to get it was hard and annoying. If you just got it without thinking about it at all, I bet you didn't even notice it required any energy.
When I have to do something, I try not to think about it too much in advance. Well, it's not very effective, because I suck at not thinking and I don't always remember to use that tactic. But you get the point. Thinking too much about everything is making it hard for us to do stuff. Not in the sense that it is draining our energy, but in the sense that it makes the task itself (seem) harder for us.
 

Obrens

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After a shell has been fired it's not just that we want to sit around and do nothing for another 30 minutes, it's that we HAVE to. Expending all of our energy at once means we'll inevitably have our weak, vulnerable, and immobile phases where the reloading and readjustment happens. Plus, if we never get around to firing a shot it's probably because the target isn't worth the price of the ammo.
I disagree. We don't take ages to recharge. I don't think we're at all different in that manner from other people.
 

Moocow

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I think none of you got it right. What's stopping us from doing stuff is thinking about it. Think about a time when you had to do something brave. You were able to do it only when/if you stopped thinking about it. Think about a time you had to get up in order to get the remote or whatever. If you thought about how nice it would be if it just appeared in your hand, then getting up to get it was hard and annoying. If you just got it without thinking about it at all, I bet you didn't even notice it required any energy.
When I have to do something, I try not to think about it too much in advance. Well, it's not very effective, because I suck at not thinking and I don't always remember to use that tactic. But you get the point. Thinking too much about everything is making it hard for us to do stuff. Not in the sense that it is draining our energy, but in the sense that it makes the task itself (seem) harder for us.

It isn't thinking as a whole that is the problem in the way you describe, but a particular kind of thinking that imagines the next move and applies faulty or self-sabotaging assumptions to the simulation. It's an attitude problem. Thinking is like breathing to me, and I do not stop nor expect to stop for the sake of carrying out any task. Furthermore, if I had to deliberately force myself to stop thinking to avoid immediate dangers or act on emergencies I'd probably be dead by now. Being a compulsive thinker doesn't mean you have broken instincts and poor reaction time.

I disagree. We don't take ages to recharge. I don't think we're at all different in that manner from other people.

I would like to believe that I can function as reliably as other people but I don't, and constant observation of this stop and go pattern of living regardless of what I want to believe leaves me resigned to it. With that, I find I am no more or less productive than before, when neurotic.
 

Philosophyking87

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I like working with computers - 'working', in a sense. I spend my time figuring out how to get the computer to do tedium work, while I'm gathering information.

I have also found that buckling down and doing some hard work - coding, once a day provides a sense of satisfaction - and coding is really thinking and problem solving. Just like writing or other similar activity. At this point in my life I think if I just sat around thinking all the time I'd go crazy. I need some productive output, or I just dive into my belly button and get lost.

I've heard this from other INTP's too, and there is also the camp that doesn't want to produce anything.

I think I'm in the second camp, although I might eventually find that I need to produce more as I age. And that's important to note: as INTPs age, we supposedly become more concerned with productivity and turning our ideas into practical reality (as Si is supposed to increase during mid-life). I'm still relatively young, so I still just enjoy mental gymnastics for the sake of it...


I have a weird work rythm. I do a hell of a lot when I am in a natural flow but cannot put myself to tedious stuff. I linger untill it really needs doing... and then I work for hours at an end in a crazy rythm untill it is done.

It boils down to lots of periods of pratting around & outbursts of manic-work-behaviour. And in between actual flows of diving into something I like producing.

In all it does make me feel a bit lazy I guess.

I'm like that at times. I'll lie around for weeks and then out of nowhere, I'll have a burst of energy from hell.
 

Obrens

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I would like to believe that I can function as reliably as other people but I don't, and constant observation of this stop and go pattern of living regardless of what I want to believe leaves me resigned to it. With that, I find I am no more or less productive than before, when neurotic.
I'm not saying we can function as reliably as others. I'm saying that the reason for the long periods of not doing anything useful aren't due to a lack of energy. You can agree or disagree with me on this, I really don't have any empirical evidence for this or anything.
 

Moocow

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I'm not saying we can function as reliably as others. I'm saying that the reason for the long periods of not doing anything useful aren't due to a lack of energy. You can agree or disagree with me on this, I really don't have any empirical evidence for this or anything.

Well, in that regard I agree, actually. I don't necessarily mean general physical energy. It's more like a depleted motivation or something more subtle. I could do things that I have to, and there doesn't appear to be anything stopping me from doing more, I just never do.

I'm inclined to think there is some dynamic between motivation, the discipline to follow it, and a long term complacency (not necessarily boredom) that inspires it.
 

ObliviousGenius

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Energy is whatever you want to call it. All I know is that I don't like to waste it.
 

TriflinThomas

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This, IMO, is why the laziness problem often occurs. We would rather rationalize our thoughts than act on them. Personally, I know I can use analysis as a crutch to explain things that bother me in life. I will generate theories and roll my head all day until it's dark and i haven't done anything.
That's why we need someone to get us out of the house. One of my best friends is ENTJ and she helps me get out of the house and do stuff. She pushes me to do things I wouldn't do otherwise because she knows I can (and sometimes want to) but I get caught up in my head and end up staying home.
 

Yet

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That's why we need someone to get us out of the house. One of my best friends is ENTJ and she helps me get out of the house and do stuff. She pushes me to do things I wouldn't do otherwise because she knows I can (and sometimes want to) but I get caught up in my head and end up staying home.
OOw I do hate it when I feel pushed out into social engagement thingies and DOing stuff. I sort of NOT enjoy that, it tires me.
In that aspect I am just really plain lazy.

Sometimes I do not feel like it in advance but can kind of appreciate it afterwards though.
 
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