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Radical religions and PTSD

Ex-User (9086)

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So I've been reading about islamist radicalisation methods and how seemingly average individuals can forsake all reason in order to follow a doctrine of some kind.

There were some interesting parallels between their life in constant fear, strict upbringing and the process of developing a complex post-traumatic stress disorder.

Initially I thought my intuition was misleading me as I was reading about PTSD, but then I found a more systematic disorder or C-PTSD which not only mentions religious practitioners as likely victims, it outlines the crucial contributing factors that I was already noticing in radical life accounts such as living in fear, dependence, war, manipulation and indoctrination.


The way I see it, Islamic religion likely does have a structure of practice, family life, social orientation and worldview which increases the potential for feelings of oppression, enmity, strife, cause, division, fear, submission, etc. to arise. It doesn't happen in every family, but a traditional Muslim religious upbringing creates vulnerable people, who over time are more likely to develop C-PTSD as compared to other religions or non-religious people.

Muslim people are more easily influenced and more likely to break under pressure, what further fuels this chain are their isolation and cultural differences with the rest of the world, as well as relative proximity of their habitats to areas of conflict and larger than average resource scarcity.


Life in constant fear or dependence restructures the brain, some studies show the shrinking of hippocampus relation to fear and religious experiences. Religion is linked with the brain's emotional processing and reward systems, furthermore overzealous practitioners are often diagnosed with psychosis, mania, OCD and other disorders.


My theory is that there's something fundamentally wrong about how Islam and many if not all religions are practiced and passed to younger generations, that leaves its participants vulnerable and likely to develop C-PTSD or live in a polarised, stressful environment with conscious enmity, inadequacy, adversity that make it much more likely for such people to radicalise, go crazy or develop apathy, chemical, emotional or social dependency on the radical sect agents and the more common C-PTSD conditions, as well as lose their ability to adapt to new situations, process emotions or cooperate with other human beings.

The age the religion is introduced to children seems far too young and intended to outstrip their natural capacity to create their own associations or perspective.

There are multiple causes of this and I may investigate further to provide a list of some kind, so far 'fundamentally wrong' is the invitation to disprove or elucidate on this assertion.

edit: The idea touches on more dimensions than psychology and neurosciences, it is a macro problem for social sciences, mathematics and many other fields.
If you agree or disagree, please tell me why.
 

Archer

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I couldn't agree more with everything you've posted. So, B, how do we burn this mother down?
 

Sinny91

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Its not that complicated, its brainwashing 101. You have described some of the mechanisms quite well. I don't quite agree with all the comments you've made about Muslims...

I could draw many parallels with the Catholic Church, and no doubt all religions to some extent, as you have noted.
 

Black Rose

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My mom did not understand me.
My dad was not there to help me.

I like pastor dale walker.
I can talk to him.
 

crippli

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People have believed in various crazy stuff as long as time have been recorded, and I suspect always will.
 

Arclight

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The 'Radical Islamists' are nothing more than a product of proxy wars that have been set up by the likes of Saudi Arabia and the United States. We (the U.S.) set up the Mujahideen (or however you spell it) in order to fight the Russians, we also supplied weapons to 'moderate' insurgent groups to topple governments we disagreed with in the past.

The way I see it Islam (or religion in general) isn't an issue, but the pursuit of power and profit through violent action and intimidation which isn't exclusive to religion. I also cannot think of one ideology that doesn't have its zealots, nor can I think of anyone who is incapable of becoming a zealot themselves.

I also want to point out that 'C-PTSD' is a PROPOSED disorder, and has not been admitted into the DSM manual.

A hypothesis is always neat, but if we are to invoke science let's at least strive for accuracy.

In short: people are the problem with any system.
 

Ex-User (9086)

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Its not that complicated, its brainwashing 101.
I think it's very complicated and I'm only barely beginning to learn about all the relations and elements of this system.
You have described some of the mechanisms quite well. I don't quite agree with all the comments you've made about Muslims...
I was hoping for substantial replies. I didn't need to hear people agree/disagree with me when I posted the original idea, although any responses are welcome. I'm looking for constructive feedback, new information and something to learn about the causes of radical and fundamental behaviour or beliefs.

In the spirit of this, can you explain what is it that you disagree with and why?
The 'Radical Islamists' are nothing more than a product of proxy wars that have been set up by the likes of Saudi Arabia and the United States. We (the U.S.) set up the Mujahideen (or however you spell it) in order to fight the Russians, we also supplied weapons to 'moderate' insurgent groups to topple governments we disagreed with in the past.
Regardless of the ongoing proxy conflicts, I'm trying to look into the how of it. Everyone can learn about modern history and politics to answer the "why".

Understanding the causes, factors and the entirety of this process allows one to verify any historical accounts or information and existing theories about the world.
The way I see it Islam (or religion in general) isn't an issue, but the pursuit of power and profit through violent action and intimidation which isn't exclusive to religion. I also cannot think of one ideology that doesn't have its zealots, nor can I think of anyone who is incapable of becoming a zealot themselves.
This doesn't say much about the problem at all. Clearly, there are groups who are more likely to produce zealous agents. What makes their activity more contagious or violent? What causes one to join an organisation of this kind?
I also want to point out that 'C-PTSD' is a PROPOSED disorder, and has not been admitted into the DSM manual.
I'm aware of this, I was calling it a disorder by the way of using a shorthand term. For me it's a set of conditions and symptoms that positively correlate with the perceived radicalisation potential in population.
A hypothesis is always neat, but if we are to invoke science let's at least strive for accuracy.
Well, you weren't very accurate yourself. I'm not doing science, I have no way to perform empirical tests. All I'm focusing on is building the intuitive framework for interpreting the scientific findings and data about the issue.
In short: people are the problem with any system.
This doesn't explain anything. Why some people are more of a problem within a specific system compared to others?
 

PaulMaster

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I was hoping for substantial replies. I didn't seek to hear people to agree/disagree with me when I posted the original idea. I'm looking for constructive feedback, new information and something to learn about the causes of radical and fundamental behaviour or beliefs.

Predictably Irrational, Revised and Expanded Edition: The Hidden Forces That Shape Our Decisions: Dan Ariely: 9780061353246: Amazon.com: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51-0%2BmXsBCL.@@AMEPARAM@@51-0%2BmXsBCL

The True Believer: Thoughts on the Nature of Mass Movements (Perennial Classics (Paperback)): Eric Hoffer: 9780060505912: Amazon.com: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51oZlMkZlaL.@@AMEPARAM@@51oZlMkZlaL

These are on my wish list, but I havent gotten to them yet. Also, there have been studies done about mass hysteria and riot behavior, but I dont know of any titles off the top of my head. Sounds like these could be in the general direction you're asking about.
 

Arclight

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I think firstly, one issue is that the cultural beliefs of Muslims are in some sense almost a polar opposite of the cultural beliefs shared among the "modern"/"western" world.

This would have been fine if societies were left to exist on their own with minimal interaction between them. However, the state of affairs at the present moment is such that if one wishes to "succeed" in the capitalist sense of succeeding (i.e. where social relations are obscured and arbitrary measures for example test scores or monetary wealth are used to value the worth of something - when essentially a human being is objectified/alienated) then one has to interact with the more prevalent "modern"/"western"/capitalist society.

So with Muslims there's essentially a schism within them because on the one hand they adopt Islamic values and beliefs but on the other hand they also wish to "succeed" in the sense as defined by a capitalist society. Since these beliefs are at odds, the schism that is within them is projected onto society at large and this is how they are able to be radicalized.

Full disclosure: I'm a person of Muslim origin/heritage.

The age the religion is introduced to children seems far too young and intended to outstrip their natural capacity to create their own associations or perspective.

You seem to think that children make their own associations/perspectives. I quite disagree for I think it's the culture that the child is most exposed to that determines his/her associations/perspectives. In fact, the idea of an individual being able to think for him/herself is itself a cultural byproduct. I haven't read it myself but my Professor recommended a book to me by Michel Foucault on the cultural origins of the individual although unfortunately the name of the work escapes me right now.

Cheers. I look forward to reading your response.
 

Ex-User (9086)

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You seem to think that children make their own associations/perspectives. I quite disagree for I think it's the culture that the child is most exposed to that determines his/her associations/perspectives. In fact, the idea of an individual being able to think for him/herself is itself a cultural byproduct. I haven't read it myself but my Professor recommended a book to me by Michel Foucault on the cultural origins of the individual although unfortunately the name of the work escapes me right now.

Cheers. I look forward to reading your response.
Thanks, I appreciate the time you put into your response, I agree with the first part so I left it out of the quote.

Sure, children aren't independent entities and it's the responsibility of their parents to equip them with the starting set of associations. However at some point they reach maturity and are able to examine their existing beliefs, look at new ideas and choose or apply whichever are accepted by their critical side. Sometimes the initial structuring from childhood stands in their way of forming new relations and learning new rules or things.

So while it's true that it's all a part of the culture and a byproduct of upbringing, some individuals are more critical and careful than others and not as biased with regards to their culture of origin and able to act or think independently of it.

Bias is inevitable. As much as it is necessary for parents to provide their children with the most helpful set of values and associations for their future lives in their culture of origin, I don't see, outside of its cultural and social imperatives, how religious education from the young age would benefit the child. But at the same time that digression is almost completely unrelated to my OP and is a very pointless assumption on my part, about what would be. Since the benefits of fitting into a mold expected by the society does provide significant survival and fitness advantages.

This falls into what you've mentioned in the first part of the post very neatly. That this traditional upbringing is at a crossroads with the requirements and expectations of the world those people are going to travel to, compete, or live in. This is a similar observation to that from my OP in that the way Muslim people socialise from a young age leaves them at odds with their new habitats or more susceptible to suffer in the future.

Of course I'm aware of how unnatural it is that Muslims are pushed by various circumstances to live in the west and that if the situation was reversed, a similar thing with Christians or other groups could be observed (and can be seen in India, Egypt and other places where Christianity is oppressed as a minority) . It is a clash of cultures, despite this fact I'd say that's not the only factor leading to radical behaviour.
 
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So while it's true that it's all a part of the culture and a byproduct of upbringing, some individuals are more critical and careful than others and not as biased with regards to their culture of origin and able to act or think independently of it.

Here's the issue: if they are able to think independently of their culture of origin, then they would be adopting another culture's set of concepts and moral values to determine their positions on things.

Traditional ultra-conservative mindsets (as determined by the western world) cannot coexist with the prevalent attitudes simply because they are at odds with each other. It's not a case of which is bad or good, I think, because these words are always appealing to some group or society's definition of good or bad.
 

Ex-User (9086)

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Here's the issue: if they are able to think independently of their culture of origin, then they would be adopting another culture's set of concepts and moral values to determine their positions on things.
It doesn't happen entirely like this. They build their own conclusions, adoppt some from other cultures and then synthesize everything together to form an improved worldview.
 

TBerg

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I firmly believe that my glimpse at the Spirit is wholly dependent upon my lower brain wreckage. When I think of the diminishing set of choices inherent in a fight-or-flight response, the only third option is total submission to the reality that meets your perception, choosing to lose your life instead of saving it, thereby laying the ground for emotional acceptance. I can see how, if you were inculcated with a sense of fear early in life, then it would be as though a fight-or-flight response were taught as a spiritual reality, rather than emerging naturally outside of a doctrine of fear. Metaphysics is a perception of physics, in this example, meaning that metaphysics pushes one to see physics a certain way. It tells you there is a lion waiting over the next hill, making you think that there is a lion waiting over the next hill. Metaphysics becomes something like an attention funnel.

Shit, the Quran tells you of lions devouring people on nearly every page.
 
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