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Privacy shmvicay! Xbox one

some.body

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So, on another board I sometimes post on this subject has been brought up and is kinda freaking a lot of people out. I'm not a huge gamer myself, I'll get a game that the campaign or whatever looks like fun, play it then usually not ever again hah, so needless to say I probably won't be getting one of these.

In case you don't know (please enlighten me if I miss something here) the new Xbox is going to have an always on 1080p cam, microphone, monitor your heart rate, recognized facial expressions, tell how many people are in the room with you (this is important because if you're streaming a movie they can, I guess, somehow charge you extra if there is x number of people watching) and I've been told it somehow can recognize logos and feed you things it thinks you would like to buy whatever.

Oh did I mention that Germany refuses to sell the new Xbox one as it is now? Hmmm...

I'm not a conspiracy theorist (though the amount of publicly available documentation regarding something like MK ULTRA begs the question 'if they did that, then...')
But if this is true it seems like there is *some* level of subversion going on. I find it hard to believe that all of that is to enhance gaming.

Before the pic of tape over a webcam gets posted, as I understand, you cannot play or turn on the new Xbox without the camera functioning.

Thoughts please...
 

Nezaros

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I don't know what the hell the console gaming industry thinks it's doing now. I'm just happy that, as a PC gamer, I don't need to worry about this bullshit. Although now that I think about it I'm a bit concerned about the overall direction Microsoft is moving in.
 

just george

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I think that at the rate that the "conspiracy theorists" have been correct lately, it is probably sensible to take their side on this one.

The bottom line is that your personal data is being accessed and/or collected. We have seen that in almost every case, that data is used to the benefit of the company, at the detriment of the user.

Supermarket customer rewards cards, for example, collect data on your purchases, which helps supermarkets maximize profits. They say that it is just good business practice, but the obvious point is that those profits are coming out of the pocket of the person being "rewarded".

I figure that if something like this does not obviously and immediately benefit me, then at some point, it is going to be used against me.

You're dealing with businesses. Business is combative. Businesses fight each other, and all businesses prey on the customer. Why help them?

Personally I deliberately give false data when I take surveys, or am otherwise contacted by some third party for information. I figure that if they want to pretend that they're helping me when really it's the other way around, then it is only polite to do the same thing back so that their database is garbage, and they end up passing products on to customers more cheaply than they would have done otherwise.

It's a public service :)
 

Cognisant

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Before the pic of tape over a webcam gets posted, as I understand, you cannot play or turn on the new Xbox without the camera functioning.
i-zBmWNnQ-950x10000.jpg


Seriously if the camera's a problem I'll pull it out, solder on some wires to its inputs and play a loop of something horrifying.
 

some.body

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Duxwing

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I think that at the rate that the "conspiracy theorists" have been correct lately, it is probably sensible to take their side on this one.

The bottom line is that your personal data is being accessed and/or collected. We have seen that in almost every case, that data is used to the benefit of the company, at the detriment of the user.

What detriment would that be? Google puts ads on regardless; they may as well be relevant--you might find something that you like! :)

Supermarket customer rewards cards, for example, collect data on your purchases, which helps supermarkets maximize profits. They say that it is just good business practice, but the obvious point is that those profits are coming out of the pocket of the person being "rewarded".

Again, you would have bought stuff regardless. The supermarkets just don't want to buy inventory that they can't sell.

I figure that if something like this does not obviously and immediately benefit me, then at some point, it is going to be used against me.

You're dealing with businesses. Business is combative. Businesses fight each other, and all businesses prey on the customer. Why help them?

I find this one hard to believe. What is a "business"? My mom is a doctor with a private practice, and she doesn't prey on her patients; Notch hasn't preyed on his customers; neither has Squad (makers of Kerbal Space Program). My dad works in the stock market, and you wouldn't believe the amount of regulation and ethics codes in place. Offenses happen, but tarring the entire business world because of these is to go too far.

Granted, I worry about what could happen if the data fell into the wrong hands, but I also want it to fall into the right ones.

Personally I deliberately give false data when I take surveys, or am otherwise contacted by some third party for information. I figure that if they want to pretend that they're helping me when really it's the other way around, then it is only polite to do the same thing back so that their database is garbage, and they end up passing products on to customers more cheaply than they would have done otherwise.

It's a public service :)

I agree that those survey-makers are predatory, but not every business owner is necessarily like them.

-Duxwing

P.S. The similarity between the Xbox One and the Orwellian telescreen is uncanny.
 

some.body

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@Duxwing

1984? Orwellian just a lil bit? Whyyy you don't say...

http://i.imgur.com/5WXh32l.jpg

It reminds me of that too, and on that other board its the main comparison that's being made.

As paranoid as that fact sheet picture is, it does support the whole 1984 angle and has a few more things about the new Xbox I forgot about and didn't put in the OP.
 

just george

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Dux, before I begin, I just want to say (without insulting you) that you are terribly naive.

What detriment would that be? Google puts ads on regardless; they may as well be relevant--you might find something that you like! :)
You don't understand how marketing works. The point of marketing isn't to sell you things that you want. It's to make you want things that you didn't want before.

Again, you would have bought stuff regardless. The supermarkets just don't want to buy inventory that they can't sell.
Do you have any idea how much psychology goes into supermarket advertising? Do you think that things are placed on shelves in aisles by accident, or in alphabetical order?

All of it, from the heights of shelves, to kinds of music played, to lighting, positioning, contrasting, price variation is deliberate.

Supermarkets are an awesome display of statistics, psychology, economics, and logistics, wrapped up into a devastating package.

I find this one hard to believe. What is a "business"? My mom is a doctor with a private practice, and she doesn't prey on her patients; Notch hasn't preyed on his customers; neither has Squad (makers of Kerbal Space Program). My dad works in the stock market, and you wouldn't believe the amount of regulation and ethics codes in place. Offenses happen, but tarring the entire business world because of these is to go too far.
Dux, no matter how well meaning the individual, it's all business.

The price per visit charged to your mothers patients was designed to generate maximum profit. The kind of insurance bought, the location of the office, the terms and conditions of hiring the secretary - it's all business.

The language of business is money.

As for the codes and practices on wall street, I'm stunned that you buy it. Wall street is a giant fraud machine.

Granted, I worry about what could happen if the data fell into the wrong hands, but I also want it to fall into the right ones.
The only right hands for private data is those of the person it belongs to.

I agree that those survey-makers are predatory, but not every business owner is necessarily like them.

-Duxwing

P.S. The similarity between the Xbox One and the Orwellian telescreen is uncanny.
Uncanny? More like deliberate.
 

some.body

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@just george, you seem to know a fair amount about marketing. Did you catch that "Xbox one 2013 reveal" video I posted in here? I know it's a tad silly, but I believe it proves a point; if you watched the full reveal at E3 (if I remember correctly it was E3) you probably wouldn't notice how many times the word t.v. was used. I know that subliminal messaging plays a big part in marketing, and though this example was not subliminal in the usual sense of it being something that you only pick up on subconsciously, would you agree that that is a tool that marketing uses? The constant repetition of a certain word?

Edit: Again, for the Orwellian comparisons I direct you to this
http://i.imgur.com/5WXh32l.jpg

Also, I mentioned Germany in the OP, and I just read that it's illegal to sell as is in Mexico. They just flatly said that the Xbox is surveillance equipment.
 

Duxwing

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Dux, before I begin, I just want to say (without insulting you) that you are terribly naive.

You would be surprised about what I know.

You don't understand how marketing works. The point of marketing isn't to sell you things that you want. It's to make you want things that you didn't want before.

Companies market over the long term in order to raise consumer brand awareness over the long term: if consumers later remember that the company makes something that they want, then they might buy it from that company. If the companies can actually make a few consumers want their products right then and there, then great, but those immediate extra sales won't cover the price of advertisement and as such are not the primary goal of advertisement.

Do you have any idea how much psychology goes into supermarket advertising? Do you think that things are placed on shelves in aisles by accident, or in alphabetical order?

All of it, from the heights of shelves, to kinds of music played, to lighting, positioning, contrasting, price variation is deliberate.

Supermarkets are an awesome display of statistics, psychology, economics, and logistics, wrapped up into a devastating package.

"Devastating," how? Shoppers will only buy so many dollars worth of food; otherwise--that is to say, if your assertion were correct--they'd be hauling it out by the truckload after hearing a jingle. The "devastating" aspect of what supermarkets do applies to their operating costs: the "awesome display of statistics, psychology, economics, and logistics" is there to make sure that as little inventory as possible goes to waste and that the profit per unit of product sold is high.

Dux, no matter how well meaning the individual, it's all business.

The price per visit charged to your mothers patients was designed to generate maximum profit. The kind of insurance bought, the location of the office, the terms and conditions of hiring the secretary - it's all business.

The language of business is money.

You're presupposing the truth of your thesis to make your argument: business needn't be malicious. For example, just two months ago, my father warned my mother about the long hours (10-12 hours a day, five to six days a week) that she worked to pay her secretary's generous salary and bonuses. And, to my knowledge, she sees patients whose tiny, state-run insurance keeps them from other doctors' doors.

As for the codes and practices on wall street, I'm stunned that you buy it. Wall street is a giant fraud machine.

If Wall Street were a giant fraud machine, then no-one would buy anything there. For example, one of my dad's friends does over the counter bond trading. In that field, screwing someone over is easy: All you have to do is take their order over the phone, get their money, and then not put in the trade. So my dad asked his friend, "how does your field not turn into one big pool of sharks?" The friend answered, "your word is everything". If the friend screwed someone over at 08:00, then the whole bond market would know about it by 12:00 and reject him forever by 16:00.

The equities market is even more constrained. I, for example, am not allowed to trade unless my dad gets my intended trades cleared with the company beforehand, and if my trades weren't in by closing time that day, then he'd be in hot water. The company has this rule because the fact that my father could tell me what trades he was about to put in and thereby allow me to 'ride the coat-tails' of price changes thereby created. And that anti-insider-trading rule is but one in his inch thick, annually revised handbook of professional conduct and ethics.

And he talks about all the law-suits and unethical things that he sees, too. I don't see why my dad would lie to me about his life. I've been to his office, and he's no secret agent.

The only right hands for private data is those of the person it belongs to.

Uncanny? More like deliberate.

You're dealing in absolutes.

I can't say either way. I didn't build it.

-Duxwing
 

just george

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@just george, you seem to know a fair amount about marketing. Did you catch that "Xbox one 2013 reveal" video I posted in here? I know it's a tad silly, but I believe it proves a point; if you watched the full reveal at E3 (if I remember correctly it was E3) you probably wouldn't notice how many times the word t.v. was used. I know that subliminal messaging plays a big part in marketing, and though this example was not subliminal in the usual sense of it being something that you only pick up on subconsciously, would you agree that that is a tool that marketing uses? The constant repetition of a certain word?

Edit: Again, for the Orwellian comparisons I direct you to this
http://i.imgur.com/5WXh32l.jpg

Also, I mentioned Germany in the OP, and I just read that it's illegal to sell as is in Mexico. They just flatly said that the Xbox is surveillance equipment.
Saw it and agreed with it.

I can't believe how naive some people are. Microsoft, the company whose founder said "if we do a really good job with vaccines, the population will go down" and so is a hell of a nice (eugenicist) guy wants to put a camera and microphone in your house in exchange for letting you play games on your own machine, and people actually do it.

What. The Hell.
 

just george

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You would be surprised about what I know.
Yep.


Companies market over the long term in order to raise consumer brand awareness over the long term: if consumers later remember that the company makes something that they want, then they might buy it from that company. If the companies can actually make a few consumers want their products right then and there, then great, but those immediate extra sales won't cover the price of advertisement and as such are not the primary goal of advertisement.
Brand awareness? immediate sales? primary advertisement goals?

Dux, people are pretty simple things. If left alone, they tend to like things like food, sleep, sex, socializing, and quirky stuff that resonates with their own psychology.

If you advertise to them, you get large groups of people tricked into thinking that their life depends on them having the latest gadgets (that are expensive), a small dog in a handbag (like that fake chick on tv - where it poops, nobody says), plastic surgery etc etc in short, unnatural things.

It isn't a coincidence that the US corporations are very rich, while americans are the most unhappy population in any western nation.

That does kind of tend to happen when peoples minds are messed up with BS from people trying to sell them stuff.

The US population does nothing when the government lies to your face/steals from you, but it will trample people to death in black friday sales to save 25% on some imported plastic piece of junk.


"Devastating," how? Shoppers will only buy so many dollars worth of food; otherwise--that is to say, if your assertion were correct--they'd be hauling it out by the truckload after hearing a jingle. The "devastating" aspect of what supermarkets do applies to their operating costs: the "awesome display of statistics, psychology, economics, and logistics" is there to make sure that as little inventory as possible goes to waste and that the profit per unit of product sold is high.

Again, you're being naive.

Much of the food sold in the US isn't really food. It's filler with a nice taste, that came in an appealing looking box.

You think that the health problems and obesity endemic in the population happened by random chance?

You are what you eat. What is sold is garbage, produced at minimum expense, for maximum profit. When the box and the advertising cost more than the food inside, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that you have problems.

You're presupposing the truth of your thesis to make your argument: business needn't be malicious. For example, just two months ago, my father warned my mother about the long hours (10-12 hours a day, five to six days a week) that she worked to pay her secretary's generous salary and bonuses. And, to my knowledge, she sees patients whose tiny, state-run insurance keeps them from other doctors' doors.

Needn't be. But it is.

Look up something called "group theory". In short, group theory means that in a large social group, it only takes a few individuals to mess everything up.

In the business world, unscrupulous, abusive, or psychopathic people have an advantage over those who are not, which results in business being overrun by lunatics, psychopaths, and generally crappy people who do crappy things.

I'm sure your parents are great people, but they're in the minority. Most of the money is made by the Halliburtons of the world, who are happy to sell things that kill babies, so long as their bottom line goes up.


If Wall Street were a giant fraud machine, then no-one would buy anything there. For example, one of my dad's friends does over the counter bond trading. In that field, screwing someone over is easy: All you have to do is take their order over the phone, get their money, and then not put in the trade. So my dad asked his friend, "how does your field not turn into one big pool of sharks?" The friend answered, "your word is everything". If the friend screwed someone over at 08:00, then the whole bond market would know about it by 12:00 and reject him forever by 16:00.
Incorrect. There used to be laws that stopped wall street from being a giant fraud machine. Things like Glas Steagal, derivative regulation etc.

Now, firms like HSBC launder billions in drug money and aren't even prosecuted. Stealing is expected, not tolerated. It isn't an accident that after those laws were taken away, wall street banks got mega rich while main street went into foreclosure.

Oh, and this "reject him forever by 16:00" stuff - wall streeters band together to rip off the public. They only reject a broker if that broker rips other wall streeters off.

The only reason people go into stocks/bonds is because interest rates are so low that theres nowhere to put your money. Thank the Fed for that.


The equities market is even more constrained. I, for example, am not allowed to trade unless my dad gets my intended trades cleared with the company beforehand, and if my trades weren't in by closing time that day, then he'd be in hot water. The company has this rule because the fact that my father could tell me what trades he was about to put in and thereby allow me to 'ride the coat-tails' of price changes thereby created. And that anti-insider-trading rule is but one in his inch thick, annually revised handbook of professional conduct and ethics.
Yeah right. That's why insider trading is legal for congressmen, and criminal banks like HSBC dont get prosecuted even when the justice department has an orgy of evidence.

You can have all the rules in the world, but unless you enforce them, it means nothing.

We had the crash of 2008, rigging in the precious metals market, rigging of interest rates in the LIBOR scandal, goldman sachs cooking books for Greece which destabilized the EU, wall street outright holding the economy hostage, rampant unconstitional money printing by the fed, financial markets int he world tremendously unstable due to criminal fraud and, oh wait...not one person went to jail.

Oh except Bernie Madoff, but that's because he ripped off wall streeters instead of the public, like you're supposed to.


And he talks about all the law-suits and unethical things that he sees, too. I don't see why my dad would lie to me about his life. I've been to his office, and he's no secret agent.
I don't know the man, but I don't think he's telling you the whole story.


You're dealing in absolutes.

I can't say either way. I didn't build it.

-Duxwing
No I'm not. We used the word "seems".
 

Duxwing

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Check the Formal Debates Sub-Forum. :)

EDIT: Or not... Check your PMs.

-Duxwing
 
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